The fundamental problem with making Powerplay Open-Only.

[Rubbernuke]

It's almost as if you think the last 14 pages were not the same wishful thinking over and over again. OO is not your savior. It's not the panacea you and your compatriots are making it out to be. It would not be better for anyone except the rando PKers, and even then, only for a short while. In the end the cargo/merits would keep flowing.
We are unlikely to convince each other, so I'll leave you to your OO fantasy.

'Wishful thinking' being detail and exploration, while you its 'no won;t work'.

Well, from a self confessed module shopper what would I expect?

 

[Rubbernuke]

I think you misunderstood me, then. I said that Fdev mentions it because people keep mentioning it. It has nothing to do with who mentioned it first, it's a recursive cycle. Fdev mentions it once years ago, or maybe players mentioned it first? I'm sure people were hankering for open-only long before powerplay came to exist. It doesn't really matter, the point is that you can't use fdev mentioning it to actually mean anything.

Words are just that: Words.

And that convinced FD enough to write a proposal about it, one built around condensing Powerplay down around player v player interaction (describing it as consensual PvP).

Because I've been a new player. I wrote fairly extensively of my experiences back then, and it wasn't great. I quit for quite some time.

I'll reiterate; should the galaxy map not exist because we have maps of the galaxy on the internet?

You're arguing against features that will only help retain newer players and have no possible downside. Think about that for a moment. You don't need to disagree with these ideas just because I'm the one saying them.

So your experience counts more than mine, because it happens to be yours? LOL. We have all been new players. Plus, what makes you think Powerplay is for new players? Its lined up (or was intended) to be more end game 'what do I do now' content.

If they were functionally equivalent there would be no point in having both. I think that's what you fail to grasp, here.

Er....thats the point of all of this.....modes have to be balanced one way or the other. Two modes offer virtually no opposition while one does, but the latter does not reward that effort and risk which goes way beyond the former two. If you read my other designs they are functionally equivalent across modes, but we can never have that with the current design unless its either open only, or that open actions are weighted.

 

[WhoCares]

The entire game should be open only. The only thing we have to lose is our insured ship. No base to lose. Our cash reserves are safe.

The explorers that spent months out in the black with billions of explo data in a totally not combat-ready ship may object.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Your Pkers chose to battle their PKers while the haulers continued to work. It sounds like it worked as it should then. Imagine if you all just skipped the PKing and hauled cargo instead. Or were you the one trying to undermine? Has it occurred to no one that PP has as much inertia as it does for a reason?

Inertia? Powerplay relies on Powers dropping territory to keep the cycle of turmoil, acquisition, defence, turmoil going. Without powers that can be broken apart you get what we have today, a bubble thats totally full and no more decent moves left in it.

Large congregations of cargo haulers in open would draw random PKers. I don't believe you actually think otherwise.

And? It means that for once people who don't like a Power being there can do something about it directly.

FD talked about a 'Freedom Fighter' mechanic where PMFs, randos and mercs could temporarily pledge to oust a power- well, with open only you get that for free.

 

[Rubbernuke]

The explorers that spent months out in the black with billions of explo data in a totally not combat-ready ship may object.

The issue really comes down to LYRs R5 bonus being where it is- in reality it was never meant to be used like it is by explorers (i.e. one monolithic dump) but rather by doubling opportunistic scans as you went about your Powerplay business. If it were me I'd make it a lower rank but in the end its greedy explorers being silly and taking a giant risk.

 

[WhoCares]

The issue really comes down to LYRs R5 bonus being where it is- in reality it was never meant to be used like it is by explorers (i.e. one monolithic dump) but rather by doubling opportunistic scans as you went about your Powerplay business. If it were me I'd make it a lower rank but in the end its greedy explorers being silly and taking a giant risk.

We had that discussion already, but in this case my response was explicitly to the guy that wanted to make the whole game open-only, not just PP.

Regarding the LYR bonus - opportunistic exploration would be (near) bubble road-to-riches - kinda questionable to promote that kind of gameplay. And that will eventually come to an end alltogether. Some of the other power bonusses like on bounties etc. certainly are much more suitable for bubble gameplay.

 

[DemiserofD]

And that convinced FD enough to write a proposal about it, one built around condensing Powerplay down around player v player interaction (describing it as consensual PvP).

Irrelevant. It's certainly no justification for anything like assuming it's the only option on the table, like you seem to want it to.

It means Fdev have discussed it. That's it. Get over it.

So your experience counts more than mine, because it happens to be yours? LOL. We have all been new players. Plus, what makes you think Powerplay is for new players? Its lined up (or was intended) to be more end game 'what do I do now' content.

I'll reiterate: should the galaxy map not exist because there are maps of the galaxy on the internet?

Should the codex not exist, because there's a wiki?

Should the tutorials not exist, because other players can teach you how to fly?

Please stop being ridiculously obtuse.

modes have to be balanced one way or the other.

I've asked 'why' about a dozen times but you still haven't gotten the point, so I'll just state it outright: No, they don't. The whole point of having different modes is to give players the choice for what sort of gameplay they prefer, and this fundamentally means the different modes are not balanced.

There is zero reason why gameplay modes must be balanced with one another. In point of fact, that's fundamentally contradictory to the design function of having different modes in the first place!

Does that mean open-only gets screwed over currently? Sure! But again I say, so what? That's what players specifically wanted when they crowd-funded the game, and that's the design approach that was then followed ever since. If you don't like this gameplay strategy, I strongly suggest you find another game that serves your needs better, rather than demanding a specific section of the game that caters exclusively to you.

Furthermore, changing it so solo players get screwed over instead doesn't solve any problems, it just changes who's getting screwed! As I've repeated time and time again, none of your problems are in any way contingent on oopp; they can all be solved via simple tweaking of the mechanics of powerplay. Oopp only makes the open players happier, but again, they are no more important than the solo players.

No, direct pvp is not a requirement for competition. No, I don't care that you think it's a gang warfare simulator, indirect competition is still competition, and equally valid.

 

[Rubbernuke]

We had that discussion already, but in this case my response was explicitly to the guy that wanted to make the whole game open-only, not just PP.

Regarding the LYR bonus - opportunistic exploration would be (near) bubble road-to-riches - kinda questionable to promote that kind of gameplay. And that will eventually come to an end alltogether. Some of the other power bonusses like on bounties etc. certainly are much more suitable for bubble gameplay.

By opportunistic, I mean that you scan as you travel- even passively. Since the data is useful in the BGS aspect of PP to keep factions happy and undo problems it gains you extra cash.

 

[DemiserofD]

By opportunistic, I mean that you scan as you travel- even passively. Since the data is useful in the BGS aspect of PP to keep factions happy and undo problems it gains you extra cash.

Please don't be intentionally obtuse. Nobody can possibly look at that bonus and think it's meant for in-bubble stuff. Once again, you're twisting reality to suit your narrative, but that doesn't make it any less nonsense.

If oopp were to be introduced, all powerplay modules and bonuses would need to be rebalanced to better suit pvp, or everyone would only ever flock to a tiny minority of powers. Who on earth is gonna bother hauling in Open just for a 50% bonus to rare goods?

Pragmatically, modules would probably need to be removed from them entirely, since nobody wants to risk getting blown up just for a few mining lances.

Of course, with module rewards gone nobody's gonna want to do powerplay in the first place, as that's one of the main reasons people get into it in the first place.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Irrelevant. It's certainly no justification for anything like assuming it's the only option on the table, like you seem to want it to.

It means Fdev have discussed it. That's it. Get over it.

Its not irrelevant, because so far the only options we have been given for anything resembling new gameplay was that. The rest (even uncapped UM and weighting) are not new at all. Open brings the threat of actual opposition with it.

I'll reiterate: should the galaxy map not exist because there are maps of the galaxy on the internet?

Well, you do have EDSM, EDDB, INARA I suppose.

Should the codex not exist, because there's a wiki?

The wiki is better.

Should the tutorials not exist, because other players can teach you how to fly?

Well yes really.

Please stop being ridiculously obtuse.

Stop thinking that better in game commincations / bulletin boards would change ED and PP into some utopia when the game is middle aged and its communities have settled on what they use. There is no need to waste time on things that are done better outside of the game. You never know, Odyssey might bring what you want since we can meet each other.

I've asked 'why' about a dozen times but you still haven't gotten the point, so I'll just state it outright: No, they don't. The whole point of having different modes is to give players the choice for what sort of gameplay they prefer, and this fundamentally means the different modes are not balanced.

And at some point too much choice results in a game that has no consistency. Its footballers playing on different pitches to different rules, and expecting a meaningful result.

There is zero reason why gameplay modes must be balanced with one another. In point of fact, that's fundamentally contradictory to the design function of having different modes in the first place!

So its OK to have a mode that bypasses danger in a competitive feature? Like I say repeatedly, solo has to have danger to it, otherwise it removes the element of surprise.

Does that mean open-only gets screwed over currently? Sure! But again I say, so what? That's what players specifically wanted when they crowd-funded the game, and that's the design approach that was then followed ever since. If you don't like this gameplay strategy, I strongly suggest you find another game that serves your needs better, rather than demanding a specific section of the game that caters exclusively to you.

Then Powerplay as it is will never be anything other than a shadow of the BGS, it has no reason to be in the game other than to supply modules to shoppers. It offers nothing new and never really will.

Furthermore, changing it so solo players get screwed over instead doesn't solve any problems, it just changes who's getting screwed! As I've repeated time and time again, none of your problems are in any way contingent on oopp; they can all be solved via simple tweaking of the mechanics of powerplay. Oopp only makes the open players happier, but again, they are no more important than the solo players.

Please list your tweaks, I've detailled mine and the likely outcomes.

No

, direct pvp is not a requirement for competition. No, I don't care that you think it's a gang warfare simulator, indirect competition is still competition, and equally valid.

Of course its competition, but its the worst kind at the volumes Powerplay demands.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Please don't be intentionally obtuse. Nobody can possibly look at that bonus and think it's meant for in-bubble stuff. Once again, you're twisting reality to suit your narrative, but that doesn't make it any less nonsense.

Well for years Powerplay players in my old power scanned as we fortified, and used that data for the BGS. That generated a lot of data, and if it was worth double I'd have a lot more money than now if I was in LYR. Its not being obtuse if you actually have reasons- players will always want get rich schemes, but sometimes too you have to look beyond greed for practical uses too.

If oopp were to be introduced, all powerplay modules and bonuses would need to be rebalanced to better suit pvp, or everyone would only ever flock to a tiny minority of powers. Who on earth is gonna bother hauling in Open just for a 50% bonus to rare goods?

As, unlike now you mean? What bonuses suit PvP- none of them. The bonuses themselves have never been balanced, its why I pestered Arthur so much.

Pragmatically, modules would probably need to be removed from them entirely, since nobody wants to risk getting blown up just for a few mining lances.

Modules would be moved to brokers anyway, according to what FD suggested.

Of course, with module rewards gone nobody's gonna want to do powerplay in the first place, as that's one of the main reasons people get into it in the first place.

For some maybe. Powerplay should offer gameplay you can't get elsewhere. Without modules you then have people who want what it offers, which should be a place to test your skills and ships against each other.

 

[DemiserofD]

Its not irrelevant, because so far the only options we have been given for anything resembling new gameplay was that. The rest (even uncapped UM and weighting) are not new at all. Open brings the threat of actual opposition with it.

That's a classic fallacy called 'appeal to authority'. Just because someone important says something doesn't mean it's true or relevant.

Well yes really.

Wow. I'm really glad you don't design games, or Elite would be dead a dozen times over by now. I'll always try to remember that of all your brilliant suggestions, removing the tutorials has to be the most hilarious.

Virtual headshaking. That was supposed to be a joke. The fact you took it seriously is...sad.

Stop thinking that better in game commincations / bulletin boards would change ED and PP into some utopia when the game is middle aged and its communities have settled on what they use. There is no need to waste time on things that are done better outside of the game. You never know, Odyssey might bring what you want since we can meet each other.

Stop thinking that oopp would change ED and PP into some utopia when the game is middle aged and its communities have settled in on what they use.

See how silly that sounds? That's because it's a terrible argument.

Just like tutorials, little features like this are the lifeblood of games. New players are the most critical component, while you seem to want to feed them directly into a trash compactor.

So its OK to have a mode that bypasses danger in a competitive feature?

Yes. Absolutely. That was the fundamental principle upon which the game was designed. If you don't like it, play something else.

 

[DemiserofD]

For some maybe. Powerplay should offer gameplay you can't get elsewhere.

If that's the case, then perhaps the fundamental gameplay mechanics of powerplay shouldn't be 'hauling commodities' and 'killing npcs'. Suggest changes to improve those aspects - say, a power-specific mission board - and I might actually agree with you. Heck, if those mission boards had wing missions, you'd actually have a reason for players to play in Open, especially if there were ways to easily find people to do them with!

The aspect that Powerplay gives that you can't get anywhere else is the ability to change the ebb and flow of the galaxy on a grand scale.

But in no way is the ability to directly kill your opponent necessary for that focus.

 

[angusmadmac1]

Here is my problem with the whole Elite BGS / POWERPLAY should be open . Until we get cross play Open isnt open , the PC gamers play in their own private group , the xboxers play in their own private group and PS play in their own private group . I had a situation where a PC only squadron was doing BGS work in a system and the opposing team were xbox only so no PVP ?

 

[Rubbernuke]

That's a classic fallacy called 'appeal to authority'. Just because someone important says something doesn't mean it's true or relevant.

Er- the lead developer of this game at the time suggested it. If not his view, whose? Yours?

Wow. I'm really glad you don't design games, or Elite would be dead a dozen times over by now. I'll always try to remember that of all your brilliant suggestions, removing the tutorials has to be the most hilarious.

The tutorials don't teach you very much. What about evasion when the bad people try to touch you? Smuggling? CZ training? Fuel management? Engineering?

Virtual headshaking. That was supposed to be a joke. The fact you took it seriously is...sad.

Whatever amuses you.

Stop thinking that oopp would change ED and PP into some utopia .

Why do you think its going to change ED as a whole? I'm only talking about PP here.

when the game is middle aged and its communities have settled in on what they use

So now its everyone is too old to change, or that maybe one small part of ED in Powerplay might offer something at the extreme end for once? If you want to attract people you have to offer something new, not just rewrap what exists. You alerady have an excellent mode agnostic territorial feature with the BGS, why chase its tail?

See how silly that sounds? That's because it's a terrible argument.

Just like tutorials, little features like this are the lifeblood of games. New players are the most critical component, while you seem to want to feed them directly into a trash compactor.

There is so much gameplay in an ingame bulletin board

Yes. Absolutely. That was the fundamental principle upon which the game was designed. If you don't like it, play something else.

Which then breaks Powerplay making one part pointless, even though its the part that actually makes the feature come together.

 

[Rubbernuke]

If that's the case, then perhaps the fundamental gameplay mechanics of powerplay shouldn't be 'hauling commodities' and 'killing npcs'. Suggest changes to improve those aspects - say, a power-specific mission board - and I might actually agree with you. Heck, if those mission boards had wing missions, you'd actually have a reason for players to play in Open, especially if there were ways to easily find people to do them with!

If FD decided to redo the lot and do away with the current design then great- but until they do what we see is whats going to change.

The aspect that Powerplay gives that you can't get anywhere else is the ability to change the ebb and flow of the galaxy on a grand scale.

And what about the actual minute to minute stuff? You know, flying? In a dangerous galaxy? You've pledged and accepted to fight for a power above all others (unique in the game) and yet....none of that happens. Its socially distanced Tesco shopping where unless you fall asleep you can't actually fail. Where are your rivals wanting to stop you, to make your delivery your last? Right now people find fortifying, prepping (when that happens) and expansions tedious because nothing happens when you do it. Its you picking 50 tins of beans from a shelf, putting it in your trolley and pushing it to the checkout.

NPCs need to be on you- otherwise you have the ironic situation of pledging to an organization that wants to dominate and be #1 but they never send anyone to stop you. For goodness sake even the defector assassins have no interdictors. How broken to NPCs have to be?

But in no way is the ability to directly kill your opponent necessary for that focus.

On a fresh design, maybe. But with the current one its the only way that opens the game to more options than "do it faster".

 

[[PS4] Filthymick420]

I have yet to understand the point of powerplay beyond the modules.

 

[Bashy81]

Here is my problem with the whole Elite BGS / POWERPLAY should be open . Until we get cross play Open isnt open , the PC gamers play in their own private group , the xboxers play in their own private group and PS play in their own private group . I had a situation where a PC only squadron was doing BGS work in a system and the opposing team were xbox only so no PVP ?

which is just one reason why OOPP makes more sense than for the entire BGS. the Powers are far fewer and larger than PMFs and have spread across all the platforms. It can be impossible for most PMFs to deal with cross-platform issues, for Powers, especially the larger ones, it's just a matter of organisation.
Powerplay votespam via free accounts is another crossplay issue, but that needs designing-out. (by not multiplying a players ingame influence directly by the number of accounts they control)
That needs designing-out, just like any other issue that gives an unfair advantage to any cohort for arbitrary reasons. such as solo/pg modes cancelling opposition in a competitive teamplay feature..

 

[VR Murgle]

Blizzard tried to "encourage" players to engage in world PvP with their "Battle for Azeroth" expansion. Guess what? It didn't work.

Anyone thinking that Open only is going to fix Powerplay, it's not. It might kill it though; which I suppose is a solution...

Those interested in OOPP are already playing in Open and players currently engaging (for whatever reason) in PP in PG and Solo and not interested in PvP. They will therefor quit PP rather than continue in Open, they will simply give up. For a lot of players the rewards are the only reason to bother with PP and I doubt they are willing to subject themselves to PvP to get them.

With OOPP the number of people engaging with PP will only decrease while none of the real problems with PP will be solved and it may even push people away. If there's really an audience for PP PvP then maybe some kind of battleground system might be a good idea but you will never get the PvE crowd involved in PvP MMO's have tried that for decades and if you want to know how successful they've been well, just name one PvP focused MMO and compare the player numbers with the popular ones.

FD might be able to improve power play but Open Only isn't even part of the sollution and the heavier the focus on PvP the less popular it will be. ( see: Dark fall, Lineage II, Tera, Blade and Soul, Mortal Online, oh and of course Eve (and there may be others even I haven't heard of...))

 

[Rubbernuke]

Those interested in OOPP are already playing in Open and players currently engaging (for whatever reason) in PP in PG and Solo and not interested in PvP. They will therefor quit PP rather than continue in Open, they will simply give up. For a lot of players the rewards are the only reason to bother with PP and I doubt they are willing to subject themselves to PvP to get them.

Solo has to have an actual risk attached to it, otherwise its a guaranteed way to win the feature though. A compromise is weighting open actions to solo, since player ships are vastly more capable than the non-existent NPCs.

With OOPP the number of people engaging with PP will only decrease

How do you know?

while none of the real problems with PP will be solved and it may even push people away. If there's really an audience for PP PvP then maybe some kind of battleground system might be a good idea but you will never get the PvE crowd involved in PvP MMO's have tried that for decades and if you want to know how successful they've been well, just name one PvP focused MMO and compare the player numbers with the popular ones.

We are talking about a feature within a game which has other features that do what Powerplay does but better.

FD might be able to improve power play but Open Only isn't even part of the sollution and the heavier the focus on PvP the less popular it will be. ( see: Dark fall, Lineage II, Tera, Blade and Soul, Mortal Online, oh and of course Eve (and there may be others even I haven't heard of...))

Please explain to me using what we have now (i.e. no radical change) how Powerplay can be improved? Everyone I ask seems to avoid answering the questions...I wonder why...