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Old 06/06/2013, 11:20 AM
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Default Elite: Dangerous - Groups

Hello you lovely backers!

Here's the skinny on our player grouping system. It's been through the DDF (thank you!) and internal debate. Have a gander.

The usual caveat applies - any paper design is bound to change during implementation/as issues ariese - these documents are statements of intent.

Groups

A player can only exist in one of the following groups at a time:
  • All Players Group– Players in this group will be matched with each other as much as possible to ensure as many human players can meet and play together
    • A player’s Friend List and Ignore List is used automatically to indicate preferences in match making so that friends will be matched instead of others if a choice exists(though this is a fuzzy system so there are no guarantees)
      • E.g. In a nearly full session a player with more friends in the session than that of another arriving at the same time would mean the first player getting in and the second spawning a new session instead
    • Players can use an option to indicate they would like friends of friends to be included in the preference system described above (which basically expands their friends list for the purposes of preferences under the hood only)
    • Players playing on ‘Iron Man’ mode will only be matched with other ‘Iron Man’ mode players
  • Private Group – Players in this group will only be matched with other players in the same private group
    • Players can create their own private group and invite people into it
      • To help facilitate inviting players into a private group, players can be indicated as friends in game and can be selected easily for sending invites out too
      • Any player can be invited into a private group regardless of friend status so player name searching and direct in-game selection is possible
      • A player who accepts such an invite will be removed from their current group upon the next hyperspace jump and be placed in the private group of the inviting player
      • A player who refuses such an invite will remain in whatever group they were already in and the option to ignore future requests from that player during the current gaming session is presented
      • Players can only invite other players of the same type (normal, iron man) to a group
    • Players can save private group settings including players to invite to allow quick selection and set up of groups
    • A player can set an option to allow friends to “quick join” into their private group
      • They can change this option at any time
      • Players will be able to see on their friend list that other friends are in private groups and that some may have a symbol indicated they’re free to “quick join” into the group without needing an invite
      • The “quick join” option can be extended to allow friends of friends in freely also
    • A player wishing to join another player’s private group will have to message them asking for an invite as there is no way to formally request admission into the group
      • Players will thus typically set the “quick join” option if they don’t want the hassle of their friends having to message them when they want to join in with the group
    • Only the original private group creator can invite others into their group. They can also do the following:
      • Kick other players out of the group
      • Disband the group resulting in all the other players entering their own individual private groups with “quick joining” disabled (gives them the opportunity to play solo or decide to join the all players group)
      • Pass their leadership and thus all these options to someone else in the group
      • Upon disconnecting, logging off or leaving the group automatically passes leadership to the oldest private group member, i.e. the first player to accept an invite into the group that is still present
    • When creating a group the player creating it can decide how the group will react to crimes committed by players while in the group
      • The player can decide to either count only crimes committed against other players, or against AI ships
      • The player can decide if a player who earns a bounty is either kicked back into the all players group, or can be kept in the private group
  • Solo Group – Players in this group won’t be matched with anyone else ever (effectively a private group with no one else invited) with the following properties:
    • Players in this group are effectively indicating they want to be left alone and not disturbed by anyone else
    • By default group and friend invites are ignored but this can be enabled if desired
    • By default a player’s online status is hidden (set to offline) from others but this can be change if desired
    • A player in this group can still see when other friends come online and can message them
    • A player in this group can still receive messages from friends (possibly revealing the fact that they are online by virtue of return messages but still indicated as being offline)

As described above a player also has a Friend List that they can manage which helps facilitate inviting players into private groups and allow preferences to be taken into account when joining sessions:
  • A player can request friendship with others
    • An accepting player will add themselves to the player’s friend list as well as adding the player to their own list as well
    • A refusing player will remain off the other player’s list and the option to ignore future requests from that player during the current gaming session is presented
  • A player can remove a friend from their list at any time and such removal will also take them off that friends list at the same time
  • Requesting a friendship can be done inside and outside of the game client
  • Friends will be matched with each other as much as possible when entering new sessions
    • If a choice needs to be made between which players to allow access to a session the player with the most friend influence will trump a neutral or ignored player
  • Players Friend lists are based on player accounts, not player characters

A player also has the option to add players to an Ignore List which does the following:
  • Removes any friendship between the players automatically (players can’t be friends with players they ignore)
  • Ignores all communication from them in game
  • Ignores any friend requests from them
  • Is active across multiple gaming session until changed by the player (this is different from the options presented in the above sections as they only last as long as the current gaming session)
  • People on others ignore lists will not be favoured if a choice exists when match making players together
    • If all players in a session have the same player ignored then that player will never be able to join that session
    • If at least one player is neutral or friends with the ignored player above then they will be able to join that session providing there is no better suited players trying to get in at the same time when only one slot is available
  • If a person earns a bounty their ignore list and friend preferences won’t affect matchmaking, and bounty hunters will still be able to encounter the player, even if the bounty hunter is on the player’s ignore list
  • If a player is in a session with another player on their ignore list they will still receive messages relating to that players in game actions and pre-canned dialogue, such as declarations of piracy
  • If a player follows another player’s hyperspace trail, the ignore rules cannot be applied to them. The players will join their next session as a group
  • Players Ignore lists are based on player accounts, not player characters


In addition to the groups presented above a player can be a part of an Alliance with other players. This is a separate entity that operates within the boundaries of whatever group the players are in:
  • A player can only ever be in a single alliance at a time
  • Alliances allow players to indicate trust between themselves so they:
    • Can freely jettison and pick up cargo between themselves
    • Can fire upon each other without criminal implications
    • Gain the same criminal fine/bounty if one or more other members commits a crime
      • This only occurs if the player is in the same vicinity as the player committing the crime
    • Have the ability to slave hyperdrive systems together to make travel easier
    • Get matched as a whole during slaved hyperspace travel and if not possible spawn in their own instance at a location rather than splitting the alliance up
  • Alliances in the all players group allow those in the alliance to come across other human players as normal except the game is explicitly trying to keep the alliance together when they arrive at the same location through match-making
    • This is in addition to the normal preference system and operates by giving a much higher weighting to alliance members when determining preferences over friends for example
  • Alliances in a private group would only meet other players in that private group
    • Depending on the size of the group, players may typically be in an alliance with everyone else in the private group but multiple alliances can exist in a larger private group if desired
  • Creating an alliance is handled exactly the same way as creating a private group with the caveat that anyone in the group can invite other players (including non-friend players) into the alliance and no one is the leader
    • In the all players group any player can be invited into the alliance by any alliance member
    • In a private group only the players in the private group can be invited into an alliance by alliance members
    • Players can vote to kick an alliance member out of the alliance
      • After a set time limit the vote is closed and the majority is taken to decide the outcome unless all members have already voted or the required number of votes is reached
    • Players can leave freely of their own accord
  • Any criminal status or reputation earned as a consequence of other alliance members behaviour is kept after leaving an alliance
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  #2  
Old 14/08/2013, 10:44 PM
Joe Bullet Joe Bullet is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco View Post
Hello you lovely backers!

Here's the skinny on our player grouping system. It's been through the DDF (thank you!) and internal debate. Have a gander.

The usual caveat applies - any paper design is bound to change during implementation/as issues ariese - these documents are statements of intent.

Groups

A player can only exist in one of the following groups at a time:
  • All Players Group– Players in this group will be matched with each other as much as possible to ensure as many human players can meet and play together
    • A player’s Friend List and Ignore List is used automatically to indicate preferences in match making so that friends will be matched instead of others if a choice exists(though this is a fuzzy system so there are no guarantees)
      • E.g. In a nearly full session a player with more friends in the session than that of another arriving at the same time would mean the first player getting in and the second spawning a new session instead
    • Players can use an option to indicate they would like friends of friends to be included in the preference system described above (which basically expands their friends list for the purposes of preferences under the hood only)
    • Players playing on ‘Iron Man’ mode will only be matched with other ‘Iron Man’ mode players
  • Private Group – Players in this group will only be matched with other players in the same private group
    • Players can create their own private group and invite people into it
      • To help facilitate inviting players into a private group, players can be indicated as friends in game and can be selected easily for sending invites out too
      • Any player can be invited into a private group regardless of friend status so player name searching and direct in-game selection is possible
      • A player who accepts such an invite will be removed from their current group upon the next hyperspace jump and be placed in the private group of the inviting player
      • A player who refuses such an invite will remain in whatever group they were already in and the option to ignore future requests from that player during the current gaming session is presented
      • Players can only invite other players of the same type (normal, iron man) to a group
    • Players can save private group settings including players to invite to allow quick selection and set up of groups
    • A player can set an option to allow friends to “quick join” into their private group
      • They can change this option at any time
      • Players will be able to see on their friend list that other friends are in private groups and that some may have a symbol indicated they’re free to “quick join” into the group without needing an invite
      • The “quick join” option can be extended to allow friends of friends in freely also
    • A player wishing to join another player’s private group will have to message them asking for an invite as there is no way to formally request admission into the group
      • Players will thus typically set the “quick join” option if they don’t want the hassle of their friends having to message them when they want to join in with the group
    • Only the original private group creator can invite others into their group. They can also do the following:
      • Kick other players out of the group
      • Disband the group resulting in all the other players entering their own individual private groups with “quick joining” disabled (gives them the opportunity to play solo or decide to join the all players group)
      • Pass their leadership and thus all these options to someone else in the group
      • Upon disconnecting, logging off or leaving the group automatically passes leadership to the oldest private group member, i.e. the first player to accept an invite into the group that is still present
    • When creating a group the player creating it can decide how the group will react to crimes committed by players while in the group
      • The player can decide to either count only crimes committed against other players, or against AI ships
      • The player can decide if a player who earns a bounty is either kicked back into the all players group, or can be kept in the private group
  • Solo Group – Players in this group won’t be matched with anyone else ever (effectively a private group with no one else invited) with the following properties:
    • Players in this group are effectively indicating they want to be left alone and not disturbed by anyone else
    • By default group and friend invites are ignored but this can be enabled if desired
    • By default a player’s online status is hidden (set to offline) from others but this can be change if desired
    • A player in this group can still see when other friends come online and can message them
    • A player in this group can still receive messages from friends (possibly revealing the fact that they are online by virtue of return messages but still indicated as being offline)

As described above a player also has a Friend List that they can manage which helps facilitate inviting players into private groups and allow preferences to be taken into account when joining sessions:
  • A player can request friendship with others
    • An accepting player will add themselves to the player’s friend list as well as adding the player to their own list as well
    • A refusing player will remain off the other player’s list and the option to ignore future requests from that player during the current gaming session is presented
  • A player can remove a friend from their list at any time and such removal will also take them off that friends list at the same time
  • Requesting a friendship can be done inside and outside of the game client
  • Friends will be matched with each other as much as possible when entering new sessions
    • If a choice needs to be made between which players to allow access to a session the player with the most friend influence will trump a neutral or ignored player
  • Players Friend lists are based on player accounts, not player characters

A player also has the option to add players to an Ignore List which does the following:
  • Removes any friendship between the players automatically (players can’t be friends with players they ignore)
  • Ignores all communication from them in game
  • Ignores any friend requests from them
  • Is active across multiple gaming session until changed by the player (this is different from the options presented in the above sections as they only last as long as the current gaming session)
  • People on others ignore lists will not be favoured if a choice exists when match making players together
    • If all players in a session have the same player ignored then that player will never be able to join that session
    • If at least one player is neutral or friends with the ignored player above then they will be able to join that session providing there is no better suited players trying to get in at the same time when only one slot is available
  • If a person earns a bounty their ignore list and friend preferences won’t affect matchmaking, and bounty hunters will still be able to encounter the player, even if the bounty hunter is on the player’s ignore list
  • If a player is in a session with another player on their ignore list they will still receive messages relating to that players in game actions and pre-canned dialogue, such as declarations of piracy
  • If a player follows another player’s hyperspace trail, the ignore rules cannot be applied to them. The players will join their next session as a group
  • Players Ignore lists are based on player accounts, not player characters


In addition to the groups presented above a player can be a part of an Alliance with other players. This is a separate entity that operates within the boundaries of whatever group the players are in:
  • A player can only ever be in a single alliance at a time
  • Alliances allow players to indicate trust between themselves so they:
    • Can freely jettison and pick up cargo between themselves
    • Can fire upon each other without criminal implications
    • Gain the same criminal fine/bounty if one or more other members commits a crime
      • This only occurs if the player is in the same vicinity as the player committing the crime
    • Have the ability to slave hyperdrive systems together to make travel easier
    • Get matched as a whole during slaved hyperspace travel and if not possible spawn in their own instance at a location rather than splitting the alliance up
  • Alliances in the all players group allow those in the alliance to come across other human players as normal except the game is explicitly trying to keep the alliance together when they arrive at the same location through match-making
    • This is in addition to the normal preference system and operates by giving a much higher weighting to alliance members when determining preferences over friends for example
  • Alliances in a private group would only meet other players in that private group
    • Depending on the size of the group, players may typically be in an alliance with everyone else in the private group but multiple alliances can exist in a larger private group if desired
  • Creating an alliance is handled exactly the same way as creating a private group with the caveat that anyone in the group can invite other players (including non-friend players) into the alliance and no one is the leader
    • In the all players group any player can be invited into the alliance by any alliance member
    • In a private group only the players in the private group can be invited into an alliance by alliance members
    • Players can vote to kick an alliance member out of the alliance
      • After a set time limit the vote is closed and the majority is taken to decide the outcome unless all members have already voted or the required number of votes is reached
    • Players can leave freely of their own accord
  • Any criminal status or reputation earned as a consequence of other alliance members behaviour is kept after leaving an alliance

I wonder if they will create a safeguard against forming an alliance in
all player mode, inviting new players into said alliance and committing crimes with the new player before kicking him. Than logging of and logging back on with Bounty Hunters. Lol I've been paying space games that allow griefing for a while and got a little paranoid on joining people, I think E: D will be a refreshing change.

Last edited by Joe Bullet; 14/08/2013 at 10:47 PM.
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  #3  
Old 14/08/2013, 11:38 PM
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Looks very thorough.

It's a shame you can't be members of multiple groups at the same time though. Isn't that what computers are for to work out the possible player computations of local space.

Really a shame imop. To play on a group and still see friends you are forced into all player which a lot of people might not want to do.

I guess I look at groups as guilds. You are either part off it or not.

Guilds could also be alliances but then again you can only be in one of them at a time too.

I guess there won't be guilds in game which is also a shame unless you are loose in the all player group.

More and more looks like one is forced into pvp of you want to be sociable...


Real missed opportunity. It's a far cry from what David waxed lyrical about groups in the video diary.
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Old 26/08/2013, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Out2lunch View Post

Really a shame imop. To play on a group and still see friends you are forced into all player which a lot of people might not want to do.

I guess I look at groups as guilds. You are either part off it or not.

Guilds could also be alliances but then again you can only be in one of them at a time too.

More and more looks like one is forced into pvp of you want to be sociable...


Real missed opportunity. It's a far cry from what David waxed lyrical about groups in the video diary.
Isn't the solution to your dilemma to have a group with all your friends in it and alliances within that group? That way you will only meet humans that you know and you can have alliances. The other solution, if you want to meet people that you don't know irl or ol from other games is have an alliance with friends in the all player group. I'm not sure what it is you think is missing? A button to turn off pvp and be in the all players group? If you have that option then you restrict the freedom which is so key to making Elite an immersive and truly believable universe.
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Old 26/08/2013, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Out2lunch View Post
Looks very thorough.

It's a shame you can't be members of multiple groups at the same time though. Isn't that what computers are for to work out the possible player computations of local space.

Really a shame imop. To play on a group and still see friends you are forced into all player which a lot of people might not want to do.

I guess I look at groups as guilds. You are either part off it or not.

Guilds could also be alliances but then again you can only be in one of them at a time too.

I guess there won't be guilds in game which is also a shame unless you are loose in the all player group.

More and more looks like one is forced into pvp of you want to be sociable...


Real missed opportunity. It's a far cry from what David waxed lyrical about groups in the video diary.
Julius it is a big post, take some time to think it through.. there are still questions to be answered and testing in the alpha to go..

So read it again and re-read it..

The point is easier to understand if you can reduce the game to a really basic game.


SO... the game is a multiplayer universe and you are playing in it..
Picking your group (or play version) decides who you are likely to meet.

All group - you will have the chance to meet anyone in the game based on your preferences eg Ignored won't appear.., Friends on your friends list take a priority over strangers (where maximum instance is likely),
Then Alliances etc

Private Group - same game, same universe... just you will only meet people from your private group.

Solo ONLINE : - You will meet noone but share the evolving universe

Solo offline : on your own...


This has no bearing on PVP or PVE.. it is purely who you can meet.

Having been a member in the DDF I can see that PVP for the sake of PVP can make your life in the game very short.. Mechanisms are there to help you avoide repeated gankings... (ignore list).

And I need to see it to understand it... and we will report back.

Don't give up hope take some time to get your head around it.. I was quite cofused by it at first...
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Old 27/08/2013, 12:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psykokow View Post
This has no bearing on PVP or PVE.. it is purely who you can meet.
But, it does. There's no option to be sociable (i.e. meet random players, not just your pre-friended mates) without PvP being possible. So the bearing is, "if you want to be sociable you have to enjoy PvP".

And I'd agree with Julius, the message I took from David's early video diaries on groups was that grouping would let you "play the way you want to play and with who you want", to me this meant some sort of PvP/PvE choice whilst being sociable. Doesn't seem like the current proposal has this in any form, which is a shame. I'd rather be sociable, but I'll take solo non-PvP over sociable PvP any day.
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Old 27/08/2013, 6:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barns View Post
But, it does. There's no option to be sociable (i.e. meet random players, not just your pre-friended mates) without PvP being possible. So the bearing is, "if you want to be sociable you have to enjoy PvP".

And I'd agree with Julius, the message I took from David's early video diaries on groups was that grouping would let you "play the way you want to play and with who you want", to me this meant some sort of PvP/PvE choice whilst being sociable. Doesn't seem like the current proposal has this in any form, which is a shame. I'd rather be sociable, but I'll take solo non-PvP over sociable PvP any day.

Within the current set up as it has been described, that chances of actually meeting players once you are out in space , away from starting areas, keep reducing. If that is indeed the case, then the chances of the player you encounter being hostile is also reduced. If you encounter players that attack you, you can add them to your ignore list and you'll never see them again.

You could stay in 'safe' systems and rely on police / military help if you are attacked. Or rely on the high bounties that players will have on their heads if the attack others, to put them off. As far as I know this bounty value is based on rankings of both players ie the greater the difference between the attacker and defender the greater the bounty. The thought behind this is higher ranked players will have the equipment and skills to deal with an attack.

I for one, don't fully understand why some people see a difference between getting attacked by a NPC, which they seem to be fine with, but not another player. I don't say this to be insulting or argumentative - I genuinely don't see a difference myself, other than potentially skill levels and that is more a reflection on poor AI than player skill.


The in game mechanics for removing hostile players / griefers etc should be simple enough for people to easily use so that they don't feel picked on or in constant danger. If the in game mechanic isn't easy to use, that may cause issues. However I have no reason to think that they will make it anything but simple.
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Old 27/08/2013, 8:07 AM
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Just one question... how am i supposed to follow and attack another player if he just puts me on his ignore list and warps away?

As i understand it the ignore would put into effect when the players warps next time or am i wrong?
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Old 27/08/2013, 8:22 AM
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Just one question... how am i supposed to follow and attack another player if he just puts me on his ignore list and warps away?

As i understand it the ignore would put into effect when the players warps next time or am i wrong?
This is a quote from the DDF archive, which is as far as I know still the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DDFa View Post
A player also has the option to add players to an Ignore List which does the following:
Removes any friendship between the players automatically (players can’t be friends with players they ignore)
Ignores all communication from them in game
Ignores any friend requests from them
Is active across multiple gaming session until changed by the player (this is different from the options presented in the above sections as they only last as long as the current gaming session)
People on others ignore lists will not be favoured if a choice exists when match making players together
If all players in a session have the same player ignored then that player will never be able to join that session
If at least one player is neutral or friends with the ignored player above then they will be able to join that session providing there is no better suited players trying to get in at the same time when only one slot is available
If a person earns a bounty their ignore list and friend preferences won’t affect matchmaking, and bounty hunters will still be able to encounter the player, even if the bounty hunter is on the player’s ignore list
If a player is in a session with another player on their ignore list they will still receive messages relating to that players in game actions and pre-canned dialogue, such as declarations of piracy
If a player follows another player’s hyperspace trail, the ignore rules cannot be applied to them. The players will join their next session as a group
Players Ignore lists are based on player accounts, not player characters
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Old 27/08/2013, 8:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Nagual View Post
This is a quote from the DDF archive, which is as far as I know still the case.
Great... wouldn't expect anything less
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