1. #1

    Default Strafing

    Will we be able to do it? It's 0g and ships should all have the relevant thrusters (based on the concepts and renders I've seen on photobucket).

    It's possible that I've been "spoiled" by games like Vendetta Online, but the ability to move a ship along the X or Z axis (horizontally or vertically) in addition to the Y (forwards and backwards) is a big part of "space" gameplay for me.

    It'd kinda suck if it turned out that ED used airplanes-in-space style control scheme.

    For that matter, will I be able to turn my ship using my mouse? I'm not expecting FPS-like instant 90 degree turns, but it'd be real nice to be able, within the limits of my ship's mass and ability to maneuver, to use my mouse to look, navigate, and aim.

  2. #2
    We really don't know.

    I will say that the previous game in the series, Frontier First Encounters had a ship mode where you could control every single individual thruster on your ship using the number pad.

    What you are talking about sounds like Freespace 2, and seems to be the idea that FD is going for. Its the only way to properly marry Elite and Frontier combat that I can think of. For reference Frontier had 'full' newtonian combat, which is hard to explain, and Elite had "airplanes-in-space".

    FD has been very quiet on how combat/flying mechanics will work, so who knows?

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by TerranAmbassador View Post
    It'd kinda suck if it turned out that ED used airplanes-in-space style control scheme.
    Based upon conversations with FD and the forum I am led to believe we're getting a hybrid control scheme - if you do nothing then out the box (I imagine) it will handle like it used to in Elite (airplanes in space) however there are advanced controls to enable you to (temp / permanent - no idea) switch off and "flip" about an axis - ie - drift in one direction and shoot in another.

    The dev diary they released showing the infamous "oops" video has then flying about airplane style with some (I am told) slippage implying a mix of the 2 modes.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by OneoftheLost View Post
    ...What you are talking about sounds like Freespace 2......
    I've never played Freespace. But here's a video from a weekly pvp tournament in Vendetta and it should show what I'm talking about. The player who shot the video used some HUD mods, but it should still get the point across:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkRoR2Csz4A

    Are you talking about something like that video?

  5. #5
    Hopefully the flight model will be mass based - meaning smaller lighter ships (one man fighters for example) will be closer to the original Elite control system. I see this as essential for close combat dog fighting and being able to do what the developers are doing here in this asteroid belt.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5JYRyhxYhI

    I'd be really disappointing if a full Newtonian flight model is implemented across the board as it'd mean events like that in the video would be nigh-on impossible.
    Last edited by Erimus; 28/06/2013 at 5:25 PM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Erimus View Post
    That's exactly what I'm hoping they AVOID. Or they at least make it an optional control scheme.

    If you watch the video I posted, you'll see that the players are participating in exactly the same kind of fight, but using Newtonian controls. It's not only not impossible, it happens on a regular basis.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by TerranAmbassador View Post
    That's exactly what I'm hoping they AVOID. Or they at least make it an optional control scheme.

    If you watch the video I posted, you'll see that the players are participating in exactly the same kind of fight, but using Newtonian controls. It's not only not impossible, it happens on a regular basis.
    No they're not. The only similarity between the two videos is they're spaceships fighting in or around an asteroid belt. The video you provided is more akin to combat in Eve Online. It looks pretty slow and mundane.

    The combat in the Elite dev video is fast paced and takes place actually inside the asteroid field - close up and personal to the actual rocks. David Braben is flying the lead ship and is purposely using the rocks as cover, making tight turns in and around them to shake off his attacker. He eventually clips one and explodes.

    That's the kind of combat I'd want to see for small fighters. The Vendetta type combat is fine for large ships imho so hopefully there's a compromise for both styles.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Erimus View Post
    snip
    Look. Some weeks ago I searched for, downloaded, and played one of those dozens of Elite clones floating around. Outside of combat, it was unwieldy and difficult. In combat it was disorienting and downright impossible to use.

    A newtonian scheme may be "slower" but at least you don't end needing nausea medication after.

    If the planes-in-space thing exists, fine, but FD should at least make it optional and include a newtonian model, even for the small ships.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by TerranAmbassador View Post
    Look. Some weeks ago I searched for, downloaded, and played one of those dozens of Elite clones floating around. Outside of combat, it was unwieldy and difficult. In combat it was disorienting and downright impossible to use.

    A newtonian scheme may be "slower" but at least you don't end needing nausea medication after.

    If the planes-in-space thing exists, fine, but FD should at least make it optional and include a newtonian model, even for the small ships.

    Heh. I'd say the exact opposite.. plane-like flight systems for me are naturally comfortable and understandable (freelancer, darkstar1, star conflict, X2/X3), whereas newtonian flight controls are unweildy and daft out of combat and boring, impossible, stupid in combat (frex Evochron games)...

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by X2Eliah View Post
    Heh. I'd say the exact opposite.. plane-like flight systems for me are naturally comfortable and understandable (freelancer, darkstar1, star conflict, X2/X3), whereas newtonian flight controls are unweildy and daft out of combat and boring, impossible, stupid in combat (frex Evochron games)...
    Ditto, flight systems like in the video, feel to me like a 3m model being rotated about all axis with a mouse and very unrealistic. This is exactly what put me off SC. Although this flight mode is probably more realistic. However, I'm not a fan of realism over game play.

    Plane like flight as shown in the KS videos and as with original Elite are the way to go for me
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by OneoftheLost View Post
    I will say that the previous game in the series, Frontier First Encounters had a ship mode where you could control every single individual thruster on your ship using the number pad.
    That was an addition in one of the fan-made mods, not part of the original game.

    As for whether this will be in ED, indeed, nobody knows, though in another thread some designers popped in and mentioned they were not very happy with the "circling around" style of gameplay that adding such controls results in.

    And I would have to agree, the space sims that allow strafing tend to not have very interesting gameplay, especially in multiplayer where the human players would be trying to fight in an optimal way.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Erimus View Post
    No they're not. The only similarity between the two videos is they're spaceships fighting in or around an asteroid belt. The video you provided is more akin to combat in Eve Online. It looks pretty slow and mundane.

    The combat in the Elite dev video is fast paced and takes place actually inside the asteroid field - close up and personal to the actual rocks. David Braben is flying the lead ship and is purposely using the rocks as cover, making tight turns in and around them to shake off his attacker. He eventually clips one and explodes.

    That's the kind of combat I'd want to see for small fighters. The Vendetta type combat is fine for large ships imho so hopefully there's a compromise for both styles.
    Hello, I was actually the one who recorded the video footage TerranAmbassador linked to. I know it's hard to really tell what is going on from just a video with no narration / explanation, but the combat in Vendetta is far from what I'd consider slow, and it's certainly nothing like Eve online.

    If you watch some of the rail shots (2 blue streaks) there is a window of maybe a few milliseconds in which I could have successfully landed a shot. The refire time on a rail is a couple seconds; that means if I miss I'm at a disadvantage for the next several seconds in which all kinds of accelerations may occur, totally changing the field of combat. In that sense, it "feels" a lot like I'd imagine firing an arrow from a moving horse would feel like. It has to be part prediction, part reflex. If the combat were sped up much at all, this would put things outside the realm of ordinary human reaction time.

    The blaster fire tends to be more "spray and pray"; at least, it looks that way to an untrained eye. At an intermediate level, however, there are things like energy maintenance and distance control that come into play. At an advanced level, you actually get into things like staying off an opponent's line, and shot prediction. In other words, I may begin a burst knowing the first two shots will not hit, but using their trajectory to time my third shot in such a way to increase the probability of scoring a hit. This is all kind of esoteric stuff, but it comes after years of practice and training.

    Dodging is about visualizing an imaginary line extending from an enemy's point of view, knowing what weapons s/he is deploying, their velocit(ies), and using one's momentum in such a way to bring him/her into one's own firing solution, while staying out of the way of all probable shots from other nearby hostiles as well as the target itself, which can be predicted by being aware of these lines.

    If I could capture the essence of the thing, it would be part sword-play, part archery, part martial arts / grappling, in a space setting.

    There are several flight modes as well, including control over whether or not one's thrusters will auto-correct the ship to keep one moving "generally forward" or not, and also a targeting computer which can be switched on or off. I tend to look at combinations of these as different styles which may be more effective than others in certain situations. This also lends some depth to the combat in Vendetta.

    I hope this post doesn't come off like I'm riding in to defend "my game"; I just thought I'd give my 2 cents on the matter as a long time player.

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