Open Play and Crime and Punishment; a Proposed Holistic Approach

[Morbad]

If Open is the mode, why do you need to pay people to play in it?

You don't. Indeed, there are probably too many people in Open who don't really want an open mode.

The issue I see is that all modes are supposed to be functionally equal, but mechanically, Open is the inferior mode because the game fails to take into account potential CMDR actions (like idling on landing pads forever), technical issues, and the abject inferiority of NPC threats.

 

[SwordSmith95]

This part? I missed it the first time (maybe it was edited in later?) but I like this part.

Personally, I'd cap the amount dropped in some way that scales to the ship class / cargo space, possibly not in a completely linear fashion so pirating a T6 this way isn't a complete waste of time. Notably, it should always be preferable, imo, to use your words before your weapons when it comes to pvp piracy, even in an anarchy system, but being able to get at least some cargo from a runner would be great. Yanno, "makes no odds to me if you run or not, I'll get some cargo either way, but you'll probably prefer to just hand it over, savvy?"

Honestly though, the biggest problem affecting pvp piracy is the tendency of people to just log out, and if they do it before you fire a hatchbreaker they can do it immediately. Without an overhaul of the network model, I don't know what the best solution to this is.
I would like manifest scanning to temporarily place the target "in danger" for logging out purposes. A couple of minutes would do it - and make targets drop a big chunk of their cargo if they do log out while in danger from another player.

One Idea that was bounced around was the principle of "tagging". The initial 15 second timer would remain, but if the ship is hit, "tagged", by weapons fire while in the "Exit" menu, the timer increases to 60 seconds. Each tag would than result in the timer reseting to 60, with the desired effect of reducing Menu Logging as a risk minimization method of choice. @Arsen Cross

 

[CMDR Corky the Great]

One Idea that was bounced around was the principle of "tagging". The initial 15 second timer would remain, but if the ship is hit, "tagged", by weapons fire while in the "Exit" menu, the timer increases to 60 seconds. Each tag would than result in the timer reseting to 60, with the desired effect of reducing Menu Logging as a risk minimization method of choice. @Arsen Cross

That's the right spirit, but it would just make people task kill. I could be wrong, but I don't think there's really a way to stop combat logging with the game's current p2p structure.

 

[Rat Catcher]

I could be wrong, but I don't think there's really a way to stop combat logging with the game's current p2p structure

You are absolutely correct.

 

[CMDR Corky the Great]

You are absolutely correct.

Damn, sometimes I'd really rather be wrong lol

 

[Eluna Ai]

Can't we just.. You know.. When you start shootin any cmdr within hisec, heavily weaponized spec ops police just warps in with 5 seconds and blow up any ship that have aggressor status in 0.1 sec like it works just fine in eve? And just within 20Ly around Rare hisecs (sectors with engineers only for example, which is literally only place where it is really needed) is just "Kind of safe" where police comes in about 25 seconds and instantly annihilates aggressors no matter how thicc aggressive cmdr's ship is? (like convention of supposedly engineers will no longer work with those who do not observe simple rule "Do not kill at the watering").

And any sectors out of these several 20ly "no fire bubbles" is just anarchy like and comes with foken worthless usual security npcs with usual bounty thingys that works fine?
This thingy just moves whole robbery fun and other pvp thingys to vi place where it should be.
And yah, our space is huge, so simply give pirate players just one thingy - npc's similar tools to somehow know where within for example same 20ly narby players have some sweeties in their cargo and that's it.

 

[Screemonster]

Can't we just.. You know.. When you start shootin any cmdr within hisec, heavily weaponized spec ops police just warps in with 5 seconds and blow up any ship that have aggressor status in 0.1 sec like it works just fine in eve? And just within 20Ly around Rare hisecs (sectors with engineers only for example, which is literally only place where it is really needed) is just "Kind of safe" where police comes in about 25 seconds and instantly annihilates aggressors no matter how thicc aggressive cmdr's ship is? (like convention of supposedly engineers will no longer work with those who do not observe simple rule "Do not kill at the watering").

And any sectors out of these several 20ly "no fire bubbles" is just anarchy like and comes with foken worthless usual security npcs with usual bounty thingys that works fine?
This thingy just moves whole robbery fun and other pvp thingys to vi place where it should be.
And yah, our space is huge, so simply give pirate players just one thingy - npc's similar tools to somehow know where within for example same 20ly narby players have some sweeties in their cargo and that's it.

if you think people won't scream and stamp their feet and demand people have all their ships taken away and saves reset for killing them literally anywhere, even anarchy systems, you're hopelessly optimistic

 

[CMDR Kai Zen]

if you think people won't scream and stamp their feet and demand people have all their ships taken away and saves reset for killing them literally anywhere, even anarchy systems, you're hopelessly optimistic

If your answer to anyone trying to fix a problem is to make a straw man argument that some people would find a reason to complain even after the problem was fixed then you are in no way participating in the constructive criticism or discussion but rather being obstructive for no reason.

 

[CMDR Kai Zen]

For any interested in hearing this subject hashed out further we discussed it on last night's show here is the segment que'd up:

Source: https://youtu.be/vtL1zCVHYdY?t=6396

 

[Eluna Ai]

if you think people won't scream and stamp their feet and demand people have all their ships taken away and saves reset for killing them literally anywhere, even anarchy systems, you're hopelessly optimistic

I've no idea what did you just said.

 

[Rat Catcher]

I've no idea what did you just said.

Shortened: Some players will complain and want total punishment for anyone who might destroy their pixel ship...

 

[Achtung-Goomba]

Shortened: Some players will complain and want total punishment for anyone who might destroy their pixel ship...

Just take the game off them. They obviously don’t deserve it.

 

[Screemonster]

If your answer to anyone trying to fix a problem is to make a straw man argument that some people would find a reason to complain even after the problem was fixed then you are in no way participating in the constructive criticism or discussion but rather being obstructive for no reason.

Okay, here's some constructive criticism.

The solution to your problem is called playing in solo or private instead of having to clamp down on gameplay via magical hand-of-god methods.
From an immersion point of view, these invincible instakill squads make no sense. Even ATR is stretching belief. If these resources exist in the setting and are available to police forces, why do they never appear in a conflict zone?

 

[CMDR Kai Zen]

Okay, here's some constructive criticism.

The solution to your problem is called playing in solo or private instead of having to clamp down on gameplay via magical hand-of-god methods.
From an immersion point of view, these invincible instakill squads make no sense. Even ATR is stretching belief. If these resources exist in the setting and are available to police forces, why do they never appear in a conflict zone?

1. I completely disagree with your post. From an 'IMMERSION POINT OF VIEW" it makes no sense at all the police would allow mass murderers to rampage thru high-security systems without response and then later pay a fine for their crimes as if it were a parking ticket. And your assessment that anyone not wanting to be murdered repeatedly for no reason at any time should stick to SOLO mode only betrays your obvious bias that makes your input to this entire conversation entirely suspect.

 

[STAR O You NO]

So how do you counter someone attacking your bgs in open especially if they opt out off pvp?

Running missions not getting a bounty on their head.

Pvp opt in option is not a good idea as this will be abused just as much as people hard quitting the game.

Why not just put the bounty back onto the cmdr instead of the ship as both systems where and still are being abused with no consequences.

You say any cmdr with noteriety should be automatically opted in but people will complain because they kill npcs for materials or attack other systems bgs.

Why not just engineer the security to actually make them better than relying on atr considering both security and atr can be abused without any issues.

The pvp board will be abused as people will just kill their friends in the free sidewinder over and over again and be at the top of the leader board every week. It's bad enough this is already being abused to tank influence in certain systems.

What alot of people don't realise except for the few is even fdev have said when they put out a discription of the game is that not all Cmdrs are friendly and some will try to kill you, so whilst they are punishing those who want to kill everything why not punish those who actually combat log at the same time as most of the people who get killed log wherever it's by menu or by hard quitting the game its still cheating as you are exploiting the mechanics of the game.

Im all for change but I feel this has to be done properly and not another fdev "fix" as we know it don't work like that.

I just want to point out if you do what the OP says about the system securities in High, medium, low and anarchy systems then all anarchy systems will disappear (which is happening already)

Pvpers use anarchy systems to fight people without worrying about security but we are slowly losing them because people got upset.

Pvpers in open are all painted with the same brush and I feel like this is completely wrong, it's like saying all PG and Solo cmdrs are combat loggers.

 

[Deleted member 192138]

1. I completely disagree with your post. From an 'IMMERSION POINT OF VIEW" it makes no sense at all the police would allow mass murderers to rampage thru high-security systems without response and then later pay a fine for their crimes as if it were a parking ticket. And your assessment that anyone not wanting to be murdered repeatedly for no reason at any time should stick to SOLO mode only betrays your obvious bias that makes your input to this entire conversation entirely suspect.

If we're talking about an immersion point of view - if someone gets assaulted in a city centre, how long does it take for police to respond to the emergency services call?

Penalties are more realistic if they happen in the hunting afterwards rather than 10 second total response.

 

[Rubbernuke]

If we're talking about an immersion point of view - if someone gets assaulted in a city centre, how long does it take for police to respond to the emergency services call?

Penalties are more realistic if they happen in the hunting afterwards rather than 10 second total response.

How about some of these? https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threa...-tweaks-and-ideas-part-2.530119/#post-8148611

In particular:

Security response times are based on the attack position in that system. So, security response in close proximity to stations, traffic corridors etc are much quicker (and practically instantaneous in high sec close to traffic lanes) than in deep space. This logically simulates how security would need to travel to a distant area, and provides a benefit for traders to stIck to convoy routes in a system (as labelled in the HUD which changes based on where you are). It would also provide a layer of strategy for pirates to attack in certain places- currently response times are flat wherever you are.

This would be helpful in making security faster or slower for player traders and make security more useful since the trader can choose the level of difficulty in their flight path.

 

[MDHansen]

(..)Players can get killed in less than 10 seconds. Say we go for a seal clubbing and have a naked trader T6 vs an engineered PVP FDL, let alone a wing of them, then that player can drop and be dead by the time they've stopped spinning! Honestly I think in High Sec systems, when you get interdicted, the ATR should be waiting and immediately attack the hostile party when they drop in...

Eid

In all honesty, a player running shieldless for max profits needs to own the loss when/if it comes. Doesn't matter where it is or the security of the system. Simple as that really.
Most of the changes and suggestions Im all for, as long as it doesn't take away anything from Solo/Group


MDH

 

[AlSki]

One point I regularly see raised is that there is not enough Piracy in Elite, aka Gankers just blow you up. While I admit that there will always be Gankers, I wonder if that would be so prevalent if players were taught about piracy first.
If the second mission for a new player was to deliver something, but they get their ship disabled by pirates (Torps take out the shields, Grom bombs stop you waking out, Flechettes take out your drives, and Hatch breakers take your cargo). Not only could the mission walk them through the reboot/repair option, but it would demonstrate that "not killing" was an option too.
Admittedly this is going to require FD to implement proper pirates, because at the moment, they just blow you up anyway.

 

[Screemonster]

One point I regularly see raised is that there is not enough Piracy in Elite, aka Gankers just blow you up. While I admit that there will always be Gankers, I wonder if that would be so prevalent if players were taught about piracy first.
If the second mission for a new player was to deliver something, but they get their ship disabled by pirates (Torps take out the shields, Grom bombs stop you waking out, Flechettes take out your drives, and Hatch breakers take your cargo). Not only could the mission walk them through the reboot/repair option, but it would demonstrate that "not killing" was an option too.
Admittedly this is going to require FD to implement proper pirates, because at the moment, they just blow you up anyway.

And every proposed "solution" posted by people who aren't PvPers tends to include extremely heavy-handed punishments and responses that would kill piracy stone dead while not preventing ganking.

Hell, OP proposes all engineers should be high-security. What, including the anarchist one? Oh wait, nobody ganks there. Seriously. The inara security report shows PvP kills even in anarchy systems and Eurybia is virtually never listed. The only time I've seen it show up is when there was a CG on.

OP even calls for ATR after a minute in low security for pvp combat. One minute is absolutely not enough time to save you in a gank, not even remotely, but it'd sure ruin your day if you're scooping cargo after hatchbreaking someone. WHOOPS.

That's my problem with this whole thing, like nearly every other proposed "solution" to the problem of ganking - it doesn't solve ganking but it sure as hell would have massive knock on consequences on what little meaningful pvp we do have.