The Open v Solo v Groups thread

[Riverside]

This is one of the reasons why the C&P system will never be an effective solution to ganking.
The C&P system exists within the context of PvE activities, and unless you start straight out of the gate by acknowledging that players and NPCs are different, anything you do to C&P to affect player-on-player activity is going to have a severe knockon effect on everything else in the game.

"We should make C&P harsher and make bounties never expire to ensure gankers are punished" is how we ended up with people in solo getting millions-of-credits module cleaning fees over a 400cr loitering fine.

Meanwhile, I have never racked up more than a single point of notoriety against other players, yet a single PvE mission in odyssey can easily get me 2-3 points.

In general if I gain any notoriety it's because I've made a mistake & like to maintain a squeaky clean persona. I am almost always allied with all factions unless I am fighting an opposed war. This has nothing to do with PvP though & as you imply the C&P we have is (probably) intended to make PvE criminal activity more interesting rather than as any kind of solution for unwanted PvP.

Because (again, probably) the game designers accept that the possibility of PvP is part of the games appeal to a significant portion of the playerbase. It can be avoided, and one might think that would be enough to satisfy everyone but no, some want it to be compulsory because they think it will be advantageous to their playstyle, and others want it to be eliminated because they think people that enjoy that kind of thing, shouldn't.

The solution to the problem of PvP doesn't come from harsher C&P or tougher NPCs imo, it comes from accepting that failure is always an option. The failure state doesn't have to be rebuy, it can just be failing to get past a blockade, or losing a grindy war against some unseen opponents that cannot be instanced with for whatever reason.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

Anyway, I still think the security response is terrible. However, the problem isn't one of ship potency or response time, both of which are already incredible to the point of incredulity. The problem is, as you say, that C&P is reactive, rather than proactive, and has negligible persistence. They should be waiting to ambush offenders inside docking tubes, hounding them across the galaxy, impounding ships, and jumping people on station concourses or drowning them in the toilet while their body cams are switched off.

This In dystopic settings you should have also cops who don't ask questions before shooting, and round up usual suspects and so on

 

[SteveWW57]

The answers to the "why?" question are a bit lacking to me. Why do some CMDRs think that other CMDRs would benefit from being attacked and destroyed, just because they stronger and come across a weaker target. Let's have to the point answers.

Steve.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

The answers to the "why?" question are a bit lacking to me. Why do some CMDRs think that other CMDRs would benefit from being attacked and destroyed, just because they stronger and come across a weaker target. Let's have to the point answers.

Steve.

"Git gud" "Carebear" "Lulz" "Space pixels" "Reasonz"

 

[Rubbernuke]

The answers to the "why?" question are a bit lacking to me. Why do some CMDRs think that other CMDRs would benefit from being attacked and destroyed, just because they stronger and come across a weaker target. Let's have to the point answers.

Steve.

You are framing the question wrong.

In a mode where anything can happen you are asking 'why did he destroy me' and will find no answers, because you don't need to supply them for your actions.

A better question to ask would be 'how did I get shot down?' and go from there. Self improvement (well, basic ship modules and skills) would mitigate the majority of attacks.

"Git gud" "Carebear" "Lulz" "Space pixels" "Reasonz"

Crossing your arms and having a grump won't help, learning new skills (like a lot of people do) does. And these skills? Targeting a new system, flying cautiously, having some shields and armour and if caught flying in ways to dodge / buy time to escape- not to mention not panicking and flying away in a straight line. Some ships are frankly gank proof as well.

This In dystopic settings you should have also cops who don't ask questions before shooting, and round up usual suspects and so on

The C+P in ED is hyper local, because the superpower layer is non functional. If it was, unlawful players would be gradually forced out of s.power space. Also higher end ships needed to be tied to specific systems (such as high tech, or only s.power stations can repair s.power ships), or be made unlawful to fly (such as s.power ships) when hostile with them.

 

[SteveWW57]

You are framing the question wrong.

In a mode where anything can happen you are asking 'why did he destroy me' and will find no answers, because you don't need to supply them for your actions.

A better question to ask would be 'how did I get shot down?' and go from there. Self improvement (well, basic ship modules and skills) would mitigate the majority of attacks.

I disagree, and you are not answering the question at the very foundation of this discussion. You are re-iterating behaviour that a player must demonstrate to play in open that follows from one player wanting to to destroy others.

My answer it that some players partly play to spoil the game play of others. Such spoilers, and their behaviour should be denounced and no excuses accepted.

Steve

 

[Riverside]

I disagree, and you are not answering the question at the very foundation of this discussion. You are re-iterating behaviour that a player must demonstrate to play in open that follows from one player wanting to to destroy others.

My answer it that some players partly play to spoil the game play of others. Such spoilers, and their behaviour should be denounced and no excuses accepted.

Steve

How do you avoid such reprobates IRL Steve?

 

[SteveWW57]

How do you avoid such reprobates IRL Steve?

I do not play with them.

When players in face to face games exhibit behaviour deemed unacceptable to many others, they find themselves with few to play with.

Why ask this question, if not to deflect from answering?

Steve

(And I know that this discussion is never going to go anywhere)

 

[Riverside]

I do not play with them.

When players in face to face games exhibit behaviour deemed unacceptable to many others, they find themselves with few to play with.

Why ask this question, if not to deflect from answering?

Steve

(And I know that this discussion is never going to go anywhere)

I'm not deflecting, I answered your question when you initially asked it: You don't have to build tough if you don't want to. There are other ways & having multiple options will give you a better chance of a more enjoyable experience. i am assuming here that you want to play in Open. Playing in a private group or Solo has it's own drawbacks that I assume you are looking to solve by finding a way to play in open and mitigating the downsides you perceive of that choice.

For the kind of player you have in mind yes I suppose they will try to kill you for the schadenfreude, they may want to make themselves feel better by bringing down others. But maybe you are just in the wrong place at the wrong time, and it almost certainly won't be personal. But there could be any number of reasons, just as there could be any number of reasons why a trader or explorer may choose to fly with minimal defences (big risk big gains). I tend to be cautious & quickly get bored with a game if it's not challenging. If you find the current game (in solo or whatever) challenging enough & that other players don't add much to your game, just don't play with them (don't go where they go at the times they are there) just as in IRL. No instacing filters IRL, no blocklist IRL. There are streets in my local city I would feel uncomfortable walking alone down at night for example.

"But I shouldn't have to!". Well tough, that's the way it is sometimes & ED emulates that. How you choose to overcome that challenge is up to you.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I disagree, and you are not answering the question at the very foundation of this discussion. You are re-iterating behaviour that a player must demonstrate to play in open that follows from one player wanting to to destroy others.

My answer it that some players partly play to spoil the game play of others. Such spoilers, and their behaviour should be denounced and no excuses accepted.

Steve

And, if you understood the basics of ED would fend of nearly all of the casual idiots. If most people did that, there would be no problem.

I don't care, or expect answers from anyone in Open. They exist at that time and place and are content for me to overcome.

Having reasons is the core of this problem, the ever shifting goalposts of what constitutes 'fair attacks'. Some people are triggered by simply being pirated, while others (like me) just see it as part of Open. Remember Open is not a curated experience, and if you can't deal with that should not choose it.

 

[Rebel Yell]

The answers to the "why?" question are a bit lacking to me. Why do some CMDRs think that other CMDRs would benefit from being attacked and destroyed, just because they stronger and come across a weaker target. Let's have to the point answers.

I believe the context makes a difference, otherwise it's a bit pointless question.

 

[Darrack]

How do you avoid such reprobates IRL Steve?

Having spent most of my life in Tour security and Close protection being able to stand in front of someone and look them in the eyes generally results in them playing nice.
Unfortunately you cant do that in a game.
And strangely enough ive dealt with real life pirates

O7

 

[Morbad]

The answers to the "why?" question are a bit lacking to me. Why do some CMDRs think that other CMDRs would benefit from being attacked and destroyed, just because they stronger and come across a weaker target. Let's have to the point answers.

My answer it that some players partly play to spoil the game play of others. Such spoilers, and their behaviour should be denounced and no excuses accepted.

I see very little implied overlap between these hypothetical groups.

Having spent most of my life in Tour security and Close protection being able to stand in front of someone and look them in the eyes generally results in them playing nice.
Unfortunately you cant do that in a game.

Sure you can, you just have to do it via your in-game character and their in game character may not find yours very intimidating...especially in a game with negligible consequence mechanisms, where violence has no teeth.

 

[Riverside]

Having spent most of my life in Tour security and Close protection being able to stand in front of someone and look them in the eyes generally results in them playing nice.
Unfortunately you cant do that in a game.
And strangely enough ive dealt with real life pirates

O7

Well you've got me on pirates but I know what you mean about body language & I've done equivalents to that in the game (using body language). You can't specifically look other Cmdrs in the eye, sure but the same principles apply.

There's a story somewhere on this forum of my late night walk through Cologne after a Frontier party (Gamescom 2018) meeting some local 'punks'.

 

[Darrack]

Well you've got me on pirates but I know what you mean about body language & I've done equivalents to that in the game (using body language). You can't specifically look other Cmdrs in the eye, sure but the same principles apply.

There's a story somewhere on this forum of my late night walk through Cologne after a Frontier party (Gamescom 2018) meeting some local 'punks'.

Haha i love Cologne, only downside was the floor in the 'Live Music Hall' only used to hold 1200, not very big

O7

 

[Felix DiCestria]

There is the problem caused by totally gimped security response. In FFE danger was localised, some regions were safe for new commander and his noobboat, some were so and so, and some were totally no-go zones. Current games version is: One mode is basically one big no-go zone.

That's not an accurate description in my experience. Yes popular systems are an issue and it takes experience to figure out which those are but the vast majority of the Bubble is quiet to the point you can forget it's a multiplayer game.
That the new Cmdr starts in the core systems gives a false impression. Once you make your way out of the core systems things become far more civilized.

 

[Riverside]

That's not an accurate description in my experience. Yes popular systems are an issue and it takes experience to figure out which those are but the vast majority of the Bubble is quiet to the point you can forget it's a multiplayer game.
That the new Cmdr starts in the core systems gives a false impression. Once you make your way out of the core systems things become far more civilized.

It is true that outside the hotspots the chances of meeting another Cmdr is minimal & of that being a hostile encounter even less, but there are players that are more social & want to go where everyone else is going - that's why those hotspots are busy after all

And just like IRL, if you go somewhere that's busy, you are much more likely to be pickpocketed or harassed, or simply to find people doing things that you don't like or want to participate in.

I'm not a particularly sociable character, I am target motivated. I returned to my stomping ground in the bubble about a month ago & over Christmas holidays was meeting maybe 2-3 other Cmdrs per day, since the new year that's gone down to maybe 1 every 3-4 days and they are mostly just on their way somewhere just as I am.

I think the issues discussed in this thread come up in those hotspots, a CG system, an engineer or whatever, those are deliberately designed to be pinch-points that are (imo) intended to increase the chances of meeting others. I don't need to visit places like that very often any more, just as IRL I don't go to city-centres in the evening very often IRL (any more) and if I do I plan ahead because it's a special trip.

 

[Rubbernuke]

That's not an accurate description in my experience. Yes popular systems are an issue and it takes experience to figure out which those are but the vast majority of the Bubble is quiet to the point you can forget it's a multiplayer game.
That the new Cmdr starts in the core systems gives a false impression. Once you make your way out of the core systems things become far more civilized.

If you have no ties to any system then it becomes much easier (once you know what you are doing / looking for) to avoid trouble.

For example explorers returning from a trip- there are many, many fringe systems that see no players (it also makes me laugh that some fly into Shin Dhez and wonder why they get spanked almost instantly).

FCs make life even easier.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

That's not an accurate description in my experience. Yes popular systems are an issue and it takes experience to figure out which those are but the vast majority of the Bubble is quiet to the point you can forget it's a multiplayer game.
That the new Cmdr starts in the core systems gives a false impression. Once you make your way out of the core systems things become far more civilized.

Somehow old single player versions worked other way round. Populated core systems were secure and dull. Danger was on fringes. Basically current system comes from totally toothless law enforcement.

 

[Screemonster]

Somehow old single player versions worked other way round. Populated core systems were secure and dull. Danger was on fringes. Basically current system comes from totally toothless law enforcement.

In FE2, outside of the immediate confines of a port law enforcement was non-existent. If you had the time, the fuel, and a fast ship, you could pull off an assassination and get away completely scot-free by just wake-scanning them and spanking them in deep space in their destination system where there weren't any witnesses.

(honestly I kinda wish that was how lowsec worked, authority response and crime reporting only at stations and installations)