The Open v Solo v Groups thread

In FE2, outside of the immediate confines of a port law enforcement was non-existent. If you had the time, the fuel, and a fast ship, you could pull off an assassination and get away completely scot-free by just wake-scanning them and spanking them in deep space in their destination system where there weren't any witnesses.

(honestly I kinda wish that was how lowsec worked, authority response and crime reporting only at stations and installations)

I haven't done it since I returned but I used to wake scan clean NPCs & follow the wake. They would always jump to a nearby anarchy & I could pirate or kill them without penalty so in that respect ED offers the same gameplay.

But I don't think wake following is a mechanism that the playerbase has gone with, wake scanners seem to only be used to farm mats for engineering now. Particularly since the 3.0 C&P revisions (that introduced notoriety & interstellar factors) it's way easier to just wait out the notoriety & pay off the (pitiful) bounty.
 
In FE2, outside of the immediate confines of a port law enforcement was non-existent. If you had the time, the fuel, and a fast ship, you could pull off an assassination and get away completely scot-free by just wake-scanning them and spanking them in deep space in their destination system where there weren't any witnesses.

(honestly I kinda wish that was how lowsec worked, authority response and crime reporting only at stations and installations)
In FE2 and FFE, on other hand certain parts of travel were quite safe. Very few pirates could overtake ship already in travel speed. Especially highly accelerating one. And slowly accerelerating? Some monster like Panther Clipper could basically swat enemies away with heavy duty turreted weapon.
 
A story for you all, this is something that just happened to me:

I started a war for system control in one of my home systems, to flip it to another faction of mine. It's normally a quiet system so I'm not expecting to see other players but one of the factions is Federal (in this case I'm fighting against it) and that can attract random Cmdrs working on their navy rank.

I came out of a CZ to rearm and there was a Cmdr Conda nearby, lots of shield boosters, mostly multi-cannons & a master combat rank. Initially wary I o7'd them & got a reply, and they headed for the local station (not sure if they had been headed for the CZ).

I docked on a nearby carrier to rearm & sent them a friend request, just on the off-chance. It was accepted & I said:

"I'm working on the war, supporting <faction XYZ>. Would you like to join me?"

Got a 'k' back, and sent them a wing invite, shared my mission (only had a few kills left to go, we did a low CZ) then went back to the station to cash in the wing mission & chat for a bit. I always take wing missions if I can, they are great icebreakers in (rare) circumstances like this.

What was initially, momentarily a potentially scary PvP encounter for both of us turned into a bit of fun for 10 minutes or so, and also removed 1 cmdr from the potential opponents I may have had to grind against had I not instanced with them.

Now this can happen in a PvE group too of course but then there is no initial wariness, you know they aren't a direct threat, and they know you won't be to them. If they are supporting the other side they have no compelling incentive to be nice or rude to you, because there is no implied threat. You can easily just ignore each other in a way that in Open, you really can't just in case.

Moments like this are why I play in Open even though most of the time there's nobody else around. IMO it's worth the risk of occasionally getting shot at for the benefit of gaining a fleeting ally & potential new friend. Almost every Cmdr on my friend list was met in situations like these, positive & negative encounters alike.
 
Another encounter that may be of interest (I'm meeting maybe 1-2 players per day atm, most just passing by).

I jumped into a system (LHS 2429 if anyone is interested, nowhere special) and there were two hollow squares on the radar. I did a quick o7 to local chat & quickly opened & closed the galmap to replot my escape jump (I always plot a route to a nearby system then set the destination system manually), got an o7 back & was then interdicted by a cutter (the other one was a Chieftain, I was also in a Chieftain as it happens).

I submitted, boosted, FA-off flipped the ship backwards & as they dropped in I was already 3km away & out of range of heavy weapons with hardpoints stowed, pips set to 420 and charged the FSD but didn't line up the jump.

I got a message that they only wanted my cargo and to halt for a scan (bit late for that old bean) but I let the cutter boost closer (I was doing maybe 350m/s backwards, FA-off but essentially complying).

I said I had no cargo, no room for it (true) and waited politely for the cutter to manifest scan me. They confirmed I had no cargo, I flipped over & with a single boost jumped back to supercruise & carried on my journey (demonstrating through body language that I wasn't intimidated but also not hostile towards them). If they'd interdicted me again I'd have high waked.

I sent both Cmdrs a friend request & we had a short chat in supercruise while I headed for my destination, I guess they were a pair of kinda pirates, kinda guards in Torval space. Nice enough, polite but firm, no shots fired (not that I gave them much chance). And now I know when they log in & where they are :)

No Clogging, no complaining, no panic, no high wake (although I had one on standby), just gave them a chance to be cool & was ready if they weren't. If I'd had non-mission cargo I'd have been happy to give it to them (tbh I probably wouldn't have but no way could I out-gun them), it's not like I need the money.
 
.....If you find the current game (in solo or whatever) challenging enough & that other players don't add much to your game, just don't play with them (don't go where they go at the times they are there) just as in IRL. No instacing filters IRL, no blocklist IRL. There are streets in my local city I would feel uncomfortable walking alone down at night for example.
I think this bit has a key point for me , irl "certain streets".

The differentian Of streets irl is huge compared to Elite.

With Elite streets non consenual pvp risks are based on busyness.

It would be great if by some game mechanism of community action we could make pvp consistently more meaningful.

When I look at the posts where I see most players are actually ok with meaningful pvp risks. They do happen.

Most CMDRs dont like being attacked just because they are there. Like a game of tag that never ends.

Irl there are some lawless streets or places where random attacks are likley (somalian coast) but also some busy ones, were unprovoked attacks almost never happen.(English Channel).
 
I think this bit has a key point for me , irl "certain streets".

I agree with those who say that there is more order in the world than random chaos. These "orderly things" are actually very subtle things that set everything in balance. Such an "order" continues to expand until it encounters some other corresponding form that somehow limits, influences, and sometimes even defines it. Sometimes these "other" forms are external, sometimes internal. For example, a criminal gang can only be so large until it reaches a point where other gangs notice its expansion (external) as well as limitations due to the nature of gang members (internal).

Gankers to me simply seem like players who are only in this game for themselves - trying to do or get whatever pleases them at the time, with no regard for others. They don't want any checks and balances telling them what they can and can't do. And this chaos gives them carte blanche to do whatever they want. I bring this up for what I think is the main malfunction of C&P in this game. Let's take a closer look at this issue from this point of view.

From an outsider's point of view, he sees the game world in two parts - player characters (PC) and computer-controlled non-player characters (NPC). Now, an NPC superpower like Empire has almost god-like powers. However, since it is computer controlled, while they may have great power and authority over others, they suffer from limitations imposed by their computational nature and cannot, for example, effectively be "coded" to resolve disputes on a case-by-case basis, as we humans do. In RL, we also have similar checks, balancers, requirements and benchmarks. Although they are different in nature, they are equally harsh and demanding. Think about it, for example, from the point of view of an ordinary school teacher.

And then our friendly neighborhood ganker arrives with his Jolly Roger. Where most people see two separate and well-functioning systematic strongholds (PC and NPC), a ganker glances at the area between them and sees an opportunity. The option seems to be defending some legitimate cause and claiming PC jurisdiction over what they do (without any community checks, balancers or requirements), but also without NPC checks (computerized C&P from some superpower's governing body). Does that sound like a juicy deal or what? And thus our friendly neighborhood ganker is able to sell his activity to the unsuspecting as a legitimate activity that benefits the game.

The reason I stay away from the Open is because I ask myself something (and this applies to all games I enter, not just ED). Would there be prostitution without customers? Would there be theft without buyers? Even the guy who buys a stereo out of the back door of a van has theft in his heart. I believe that by doing this I am helping to make online gaming worlds better places to be.
 
I agree with those who say that there is more order in the world than random chaos. These "orderly things" are actually very subtle things that set everything in balance. Such an "order" continues to expand until it encounters some other corresponding form that somehow limits, influences, and sometimes even defines it. Sometimes these "other" forms are external, sometimes internal. For example, a criminal gang can only be so large until it reaches a point where other gangs notice its expansion (external) as well as limitations due to the nature of gang members (internal).

Gankers to me simply seem like players who are only in this game for themselves - trying to do or get whatever pleases them at the time, with no regard for others. They don't want any checks and balances telling them what they can and can't do. And this chaos gives them carte blanche to do whatever they want. I bring this up for what I think is the main malfunction of C&P in this game. Let's take a closer look at this issue from this point of view.

From an outsider's point of view, he sees the game world in two parts - player characters (PC) and computer-controlled non-player characters (NPC). Now, an NPC superpower like Empire has almost god-like powers. However, since it is computer controlled, while they may have great power and authority over others, they suffer from limitations imposed by their computational nature and cannot, for example, effectively be "coded" to resolve disputes on a case-by-case basis, as we humans do. In RL, we also have similar checks, balancers, requirements and benchmarks. Although they are different in nature, they are equally harsh and demanding. Think about it, for example, from the point of view of an ordinary school teacher.

And then our friendly neighborhood ganker arrives with his Jolly Roger. Where most people see two separate and well-functioning systematic strongholds (PC and NPC), a ganker glances at the area between them and sees an opportunity. The option seems to be defending some legitimate cause and claiming PC jurisdiction over what they do (without any community checks, balancers or requirements), but also without NPC checks (computerized C&P from some superpower's governing body). Does that sound like a juicy deal or what? And thus our friendly neighborhood ganker is able to sell his activity to the unsuspecting as a legitimate activity that benefits the game.

The reason I stay away from the Open is because I ask myself something (and this applies to all games I enter, not just ED). Would there be prostitution without customers? Would there be theft without buyers? Even the guy who buys a stereo out of the back door of a van has theft in his heart. I believe that by doing this I am helping to make online gaming worlds better places to be.
Great read !! I really like your analysis.
I understand your solution although it isnt what I choose.
Also I think that gankers might be too broad a label for me, a pirate who legit roleplays isnt in the same category as those who just attack anyone they encounter.
 
I think this bit has a key point for me , irl "certain streets".

The differentian Of streets irl is huge compared to Elite.

With Elite streets non consenual pvp risks are based on busyness.

It would be great if by some game mechanism of community action we could make pvp consistently more meaningful.

When I look at the posts where I see most players are actually ok with meaningful pvp risks. They do happen.

Most CMDRs dont like being attacked just because they are there. Like a game of tag that never ends.

Irl there are some lawless streets or places where random attacks are likley (somalian coast) but also some busy ones, were unprovoked attacks almost never happen.(English Channel).
IRL The English Channel is controlled by the RN, possibly the most rabid anti-pirate force in history, (They actually stormed entire sections of coast, including East Africa [Somalia] in order to crush any pirate activity, almost driving it from the surface of the planet) That's why merchant vessels aren't built with gun decks anymore.
Since the RN ceded control of the worlds oceans to the USN piracy has been creeping back in so you see merchant vessels hiring teams of mercenaries to defend them in risky waters.
None of Elite's powers feel the need to drive piracy out of their systems so it's allowed to spread even in the core.
 
IRL The English Channel is controlled by the RN, possibly the most rabid anti-pirate force in history, (They actually stormed entire sections of coast, including East Africa [Somalia] in order to crush any pirate activity, almost driving it from the surface of the planet) That's why merchant vessels aren't built with gun decks anymore.
Since the RN ceded control of the worlds oceans to the USN piracy has been creeping back in so you see merchant vessels hiring teams of mercenaries to defend them in risky waters.
None of Elite's powers feel the need to drive piracy out of their systems so it's allowed to spread even in the core.
With near instantaneous jump capability 'local' has no meaning in ED, so threats can come from anywhere at any time. This means all traders are at risk continually and should expect trouble in any instance. The only reason this is not considered is because engineering and NPCs have been so comically underpowered as player ship get ever more beefy.
 
With near instantaneous jump capability 'local' has no meaning in ED, so threats can come from anywhere at any time. This means all traders are at risk continually and should expect trouble in any instance. The only reason this is not considered is because engineering and NPCs have been so comically underpowered as player ship get ever more beefy.

The meaning of increased security in the game now is how quickly the rozzers will arrive after being notified of a crime. Crims can jump in & out, but so can the police & you can't outrun a motorola. That's PvE stuff though, applies to any mode.

I think it's worth bearing in mind that NPCs, especially the ones that attack you in supercruise have to be challenging to any skill level of player. That does mean that they get much easier to deal with as the player becomes more experienced which seems fair enough to me for an existential threat. For more challenging NPCs there are places you can go where the challenge is harder & multiple opponents can be engaged at once.

And if you want more challenge still, well imo that's where PvP comes into it's own.
 
With near instantaneous jump capability 'local' has no meaning in ED, so threats can come from anywhere at any time. This means all traders are at risk continually and should expect trouble in any instance. The only reason this is not considered is because engineering and NPCs have been so comically underpowered as player ship get ever more beefy.
The NPCs encountered belong to one or other local faction. Protection/security on the other hand is only provided by station guns within 7.5 km of the slot.
This could be extended by providing the same security at the nav beacon and convoys from the beacon to the station. Instead however every system has a beacon overrun by pirates.
Traders are thus back where they were upto the 18th century, having to provide their own defence.
 
The NPCs encountered belong to one or other local faction. Protection/security on the other hand is only provided by station guns within 7.5 km of the slot.
This could be extended by providing the same security at the nav beacon and convoys from the beacon to the station. Instead however every system has a beacon overrun by pirates.
Traders are thus back where they were upto the 18th century, having to provide their own defence.
Except NAVs serve no purpose (well, very little unless you need to honk the point to reveal POIs / planets).

In short no C+P will work in ED unless its set to maximum ATR levels (as in, not 'regular' ATR behavior but when you've really tweaked their Smarties) and even then the lag between engagement and possible destruction is still too big unless the 'victim' uses GitGud Teachings.

Pre 3.X (around the low 2.X days) lockdowns approached what would be considered meaningful security- I once did a number on a high sec system and had Fed navy wings of Corvettes and Vultures which zoned in on anyone- its this control of SC which is the important part I feel.

Station guns are also a bit of a wiffy area, mainly as drop zones are smaller than this zone of control, so its instant safety (which I feel is wrong and OP).

The meaning of increased security in the game now is how quickly the rozzers will arrive after being notified of a crime. Crims can jump in & out, but so can the police & you can't outrun a motorola. That's PvE stuff though, applies to any mode.

I think it's worth bearing in mind that NPCs, especially the ones that attack you in supercruise have to be challenging to any skill level of player. That does mean that they get much easier to deal with as the player becomes more experienced which seems fair enough to me for an existential threat. For more challenging NPCs there are places you can go where the challenge is harder & multiple opponents can be engaged at once.

And if you want more challenge still, well imo that's where PvP comes into it's own.
The issue I have with this is......why?

Players know upfront what sec levels are, what strength a POI is and what they face in a mission- if this is the case I don't see the need for being coy regards skill levels. If you don't want to be molested by hard core pirates / strong police you use the map / scanners and steer clear of 'hot' areas. Part of the problem for me in ED is this vanilla approach to difficulty- you have a gameworld the size of a galaxy but it has no real topography in difficulty (at least human-wise).
 
Except NAVs serve no purpose (well, very little unless you need to honk the point to reveal POIs / planets).

In short no C+P will work in ED unless its set to maximum ATR levels (as in, not 'regular' ATR behavior but when you've really tweaked their Smarties) and even then the lag between engagement and possible destruction is still too big unless the 'victim' uses GitGud Teachings.

Pre 3.X (around the low 2.X days) lockdowns approached what would be considered meaningful security- I once did a number on a high sec system and had Fed navy wings of Corvettes and Vultures which zoned in on anyone- its this control of SC which is the important part I feel.

Station guns are also a bit of a wiffy area, mainly as drop zones are smaller than this zone of control, so its instant safety (which I feel is wrong and OP).

The issue I have with this is......why?
Yes Nav beacons serve no purpose now other than for bounty hunting. Yet it was always the logical point to gather ships together before traversing a potentially hostile system.
Of course that just leads to fdev design choices which haven't overwhelmingly emphasised logic.
 
Prevents irritating station camping...
Problem is, it means that there is zero gameplay added. Right now NAVs are redundant, SC is (PvE wise) largely an interactive lobby to select a POI and stations offer instant protection (so PvE wise pirates pursuing instantly peel off and are again, redundant).

I always maintain you can design this out via hidden trader mechanics- so you then have to scan the NAV to find your destination, who is in a destructable ship (so SC becomes more vital to see you are not followed), allows these POIs to have destructible NPC security in them (and not invinciguns) and is subject to NPC / player security too (players from wings, squadrons etc). This also stops station camping (unless you want to land) in things like Powerplay.

At some point people will have to engage with the game, and not whine when they have to actually do something proactive.
 
Problem is, it means that there is zero gameplay added. Right now NAVs are redundant, SC is (PvE wise) largely an interactive lobby to select a POI and stations offer instant protection (so PvE wise pirates pursuing instantly peel off and are again, redundant).

I always maintain you can design this out via hidden trader mechanics- so you then have to scan the NAV to find your destination, who is in a destructable ship (so SC becomes more vital to see you are not followed), allows these POIs to have destructible NPC security in them (and not invinciguns) and is subject to NPC / player security too (players from wings, squadrons etc). This also stops station camping (unless you want to land) in things like Powerplay.

At some point people will have to engage with the game, and not whine when they have to actually do something proactive.
Hidden trader mechanics? And why then have all those big stations? Just for Powerplay? Whats the catch? Apart from obligatory combat play. With ships not suitable for combat.
 
Hidden trader mechanics? And why then have all those big stations? Just for Powerplay? Whats the catch? Apart from obligatory combat play. With ships not suitable for combat.
Because as I explained the whole traversal chain is broken, meaning limp SC interdiction is the only place anything happens.

Without danger you can't make space safer, because all of space is as safe as houses PvE wise outside POIs.

You can still keep large stations for the majority of things too, but it should be that for the more dangerous things you move away from them because they (stations) negate too much.

Lastly, its up to players to decide what is a 'combat' ship. Against NPCs even an armed trader can fight back- it comes down to the player judging what they can handle and mitigating the risk with other in game methods (such as ship / module choice).
 
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