What Happens If A Major New Ancient Site is Discovered And...

... the system was already discovered and scanned by Cmdr QuickScan, maybe several years ago?

Maybe this cmdr just didn't see it. They were casually exploring and weren't looking... they were looking for ELW, WW and terrestrials like many of they guides recommend. But never noticed special things that you actually need to place your eyeballs on the UI to see. Like Guardian ruins... you gotta actually lbe aware and looking for it to notice.

So what happens if the most critical, amazing discovery was missed several years ago by Cmdr QuickScan?
  • Do they go down in ED history kinda like Leeroy Jenkins in WoW? Ridiculed and a joke from then on?
  • How would you feel if you were Cmdr QuickScan and you (your character) became famous for missing the biggest find in ED history, that thousands of other players were trying to find?
  • Would FDev prevent this from happening by moving the special site elsewhere... because if it was placed on a planet on a secondary star system like many of the Guardian Ruins.... it will never be found now that the system was already discovered and scanned. (I suppose we will never know)
 
FDev are not going to add something new and amazing and then just leave it to never be discovered. It's either unique and will pop up in galnet eventually. Or multiple, like guardian ruins, where there are sufficient for CMDRs to run in to them eventually in the balance of probability.
 
It'd be very difficult to prove that the site had been there all along three years ago, or indeed even if the first discovery tag was from someone who could possibly have had the tools to notice it (maybe they scanned the system pre-Horizons? or pre-3.3 adding more powerful mapping tools?). Frontier are very inconsistent when adding new things as to whether it could plausibly have been there all along, or whether we're just supposed to pretend everyone happened to miss it.

For some actual examples:

1) The Guardian/Thargoid battleground site discovered (very quickly following Galnet hint) at Wregoe BU-Y b2-0 recently.
Frontier seem to have taken reasonable care in that case to place it in an area where it's plausible that it wouldn't have been found and could "have been there all along"; there was exactly one visit to that system recorded on EDSM prior to the Galnet article (and that several years earlier), the region as a whole was generally fairly lightly explored and not the sort of place to attract passing traffic.

2) The Coalsack Thargoids discovered at the start of the Adamastor storyline.
The Coalsack nebula is obvious, not far from the bubble, and has been a waypoint on at least one exploration expedition. In that case, it was extremely obvious that the Thargoids couldn't possibly have been there all along, which of course makes the old Azimuth base equally obviously added later. They'd probably have permit-locked it in 1.0 (or when they realised in 2.1) if they'd been planning that storyline that far back.

3) The Hesperus megaship discovered after following a trail of clues.
The system itself is close enough to have been visited, but the megaship itself was hidden inside a belt cluster around the secondary star and didn't originally show up on scans. Again, narratively plausible that it was "there all along and no-one noticed", but equally, no-one's going to shame you for not having checked every single belt cluster in every single system you visit "just in case".

4) The earlier battle site discovered in Trapezium Sector YU-X c1-2 by following Salvation's breadcrumbs
Borderline: it's implausible that no-one would have happened to notice it, but not completely impossible.

5) The Zurara.
Really obvious once you're in the right system; known to have been there from the start; genuinely no-one had entered that system because the locational clues were vague enough for the first few years.
 
It'd be very difficult to prove that the site had been there all along three years ago, or indeed even if the first discovery tag was from someone who could possibly have had the tools to notice it (maybe they scanned the system pre-Horizons? or pre-3.3 adding more powerful mapping tools?). Frontier are very inconsistent when adding new things as to whether it could plausibly have been there all along, or whether we're just supposed to pretend everyone happened to miss it.
There are certain things that if found would be well assumed by the player base to be old. Not new.

With that being said, possibly the release of Oddesey removed old hand-placed stuff that hadn't been found. New planet surface generation might have required FDev revisiting old hand-placed sites.
 
If you mean Raxxla (assuming it is a thing with a defined physical location) then fair enough.

Even then, the points above still apply, as far as whether anyone would think more than "eh, bad luck" about whoever had the tag on the star:
- it would need to be somewhere sufficiently distant that it's plausible that the second person to visit the system did find it, as opposed to a few thousand people all missing it
- it would need to be sufficiently obvious on entering the system that someone carrying out reasonably diligent exploration (but not so diligent that they'd never have got that far from Sol) might have found it without having any reason to believe it was there in advance. So things like the Hesperus "hidden in a secondary asteroid belt that you need to drop into to pick up on" ... they could hide stuff in half the systems in the bubble and it'd take months or years for anyone to notice.

That's basically an intersection which says "Frontier are expecting this thing to be discovered by sheer dumb luck", which would be a rather disappointing way to find the object, and too risky that someone would happen across it six months in besides.

(If you mean something else then I have a hard time thinking what, now that the Zurara has been discovered, might plausibly have been there all along nine years ago in 1.0)
 
That's basically an intersection which says "Frontier are expecting this thing to be discovered by sheer dumb luck", which would be a rather disappointing way to find the object, and too risky that someone would happen across it six months in besides.
You are saying what I also say... the probability of this happening is very low. So low it has not happened. So low that on other threads I have argued that there simply isn't anything out there to find... unless FDev adds it in today.

Also, the probability of anything being found on a secondary star system (+20,000Ls from the primary) that was previously scanned... is almost zero. Because nobody is going to double check it. Which is why I say FDev would need to move it elsewhere if they ever wanted it to be found. (good place for the Princess Leia's rebellion to hide though).

It is possible that "clues" led to a location... but the clues were useless and nobody ever figured it out. Some programmer thought they were being clever, but either bugs prevented, or just bad design... it was just abandoned*. Leaving only dumb luck to find it. Again... crazy low probability of finding something through dumb luck. I 100% agree... and it has not happened.

But if it were to happen... which it could...very slim but maybe... especially in the mind of any explorer that hopes to find something in the deep black... then this could happen.


* Edit: I feel the probability of FDev programmers adding stuff to the game that is bugged or doesn't work correctly and then abandoning it is quite high. Just in general... looking at the overall game.
 
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... the system was already discovered and scanned by Cmdr QuickScan, maybe several years ago?

Once you go back a certain number of years we weren't able to discover guardian ruins with out scanners, that took a lot of time researching and gathering and then reporting data to the relevant engineer, it's only fairly recently that our scanners indicated there were alien sites on planets, I recall visiting candidate systems and flying back and forth across the surface to try and spot ancient ruins because both our systems scanner and surface scanners couldn't pick them up at all, we just knew they were on one of the planets in system X because of data gathered.

It's quite possible this Cmdr QuickScan didn't yet have the instruments to know there was anything odd in the system let alone ancient ruins to be found.

It doesn't actually matter whether there was anything else there at the time, no-one was going to fly all over every planet in every system eyeballing the ground in case there were ruins, they may have been there, they may not have been there, it doesn't matter for the purpose of the game, we can just assume he scanned the system before he got the updated scanners that detect the ruins and therefore missed them.
 
The only way that a Big New Handmade By Frontier Discovery could certainly be only found by one player would be if it was in a permit-locked area that has been locked since the game's start, and FD suddenly unlocked it.
Mind you, some of the unknown permit locks have only been introduced well after the game had launched: if Frontier unlocked those and added new stuff there, the body might already be tagged anyway. For example, I have a tag on an ELW in the NGC 2286 sector that I can no longer access, as it's now locked.

If Frontier will ever open up a locked area, people will be swarming all over it of course: the opening itself would be a giant clue that there's something in there that they want us to find.
But since they have a clear tendency of placing new unique content close to the bubble, this means any unlocks would at most be (one of) the permit locks around Barnard's Loop, and not the distant locked spheres that are all five digits of lightyears away.

The Zurara was an exception, but it was said to be in-game since launch. Speaking of which...

For some actual examples:
[...]
5) The Zurara.
Really obvious once you're in the right system; known to have been there from the start; genuinely no-one had entered that system because the locational clues were vague enough for the first few years.
It's not just that they were vague, but also that there was only one clue was in the right direction enough (the line between Reorte and Riedquat), and a bunch of others that were either in a direction too far away (this including how the Formidine Rift settlements were on a line between the Heart and Soul nebulae and the bubble), irrelevant, or even false. (Like "Whether it's found depends on who goes looking." - oh, come on.)
Perhaps it would have been found if the Reorte-Riedquat line was the only one given. If all the Commanders who took part of the search were concentrated on this line only, I think it might have worked... but well, that's not how things ultimately went. (Mind you, for the better: the discovery would have been less impactful if it were the original incarnation, and only later patch notes would have said "the Zurara is now a wrecked megaship and we added voice-acting to the logs.")


Of course, there's at least one way Frontier can side-step some of this: if they place something on a thin atmo. body's surface, then we can know that the earliest it could have been there was with Odyssey. For all that would help.

But if they hand-place a new location, or locations, and not procedurally generate them, then it should be trivially easy for them to pick systems that haven't been discovered yet.


However, if somebody went and missed something important, as per the first post's question, then is it really their fault they missed it if the game buries the alert in a place rather easy to overlook, or is it mostly the fault of poor design? Personally, I'm leaning towards the latter.

Take Guardian Ruins, for example. When scanning planets, people tend to look at the top right corner because that's where the signals are to be listed. Except for Guardian and Thargoid signals, as if they are present, then the notification for them is in a different area, under Locatoins, lower down. Granted, at least now the text is in yellow there, but it might still be easy to miss. I know at least one time this actually happened: the guy who assigned boxels to players in IGAU to search scanned a body in his boxel, and missed the ruins on it. (Just to make sure: I'm not talking about myself here. While I came up with the idea that the area might be worth searching for Guardian ruins, I wasn't the one who organised the squadron survey.) So that's a motivated player specifically looking for that exact type of thing, and still accidentally missing it... because with that interface, that's easy enough to do.

So, if you found something important enough, in my opinion the game should point it out even more than it does for the "usual" stuff. Certainly not less.
 
So, if you found something important enough, in my opinion the game should point it out even more than it does for the "usual" stuff. Certainly not less.

I started ED in Horizons in 2017. I absolutely remember finding planets with brain trees. At the time I had no idea it was an indicator that Guardian stuff could be nearby. I thought they were interesting bio stuff to scan for the codex, and get some engineering mats. So yes, I could be Cmdr QuickScan. This thought has often entered my mind.
 
I started ED in Horizons in 2017. I absolutely remember finding planets with brain trees. At the time I had no idea it was an indicator that Guardian stuff could be nearby. I thought they were interesting bio stuff to scan for the codex, and get some engineering mats. So yes, I could be Cmdr QuickScan. This thought has often entered my mind.
Chances are good that you haven't, as by the time you probably found those planets, there was a "scanner upgrade" added that showed any Guardian ruins on the navigation panel if you were within 1,000 ls of them. So, unless you somehow forgot to glance at the left panel, you probably didn't miss anything on the bodies you touched down on.

But well, it wouldn't have been an amazing new discovery even if you did miss it, it would have been another Guardian ruin like many others: so, I don't think you would have been widely ridiculed, or well, even mentioned.
 
Huh? There is no obligation to publish your discoveries anywhere. They'll put it in Galnet if they need to. Besides, how stuff generates has changed many times, like there was a time when Anemones went crazy and started appearing anywhere. Then again they disappeared from well known places like Mic Turners base. These days you have all these colour variations and codex and whatnot.
 
Huh? There is no obligation to publish your discoveries anywhere.
Everybody knows who has first discovery, first scan, and first footfall.

The Original Post is discussing the discovery of an amazing old thing, like Raxxla vacation dream home (whatever, it could be anything) but Cmdr QuickScan had a first discovery and footfall and it went unnoticed. If this happened 20,000Ly from the bubble it would be a bit... erm... embarrassing if I was the Cmdr QuickScan. I mean.... why else am I spending hundreds of hours scanning systems in deep space? Ok I'm not specifically looking for some long lost vacation dream home.... but the whole purpose of exploring is to find stuff. So ya... embarrasing to say the least.

The follow-up point is would FDev simply move the unique interesting location to a different system (or get rid of it) if the system became explored but the interesting location remained undiscovered. Because now the likelihood of the interesting location becoming discovered is 99.99% less than before.

Okay, as mentioned by others maybe the ancient site was added by FDev after Cmdr QuickScan explored the system. Maybe. But depending on the type of site and the type of game implementation the playerbase would have a fairly good idea if this was new or old content.
 
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There's no telling if something went unnoticed. Commander may choose to keep some information to himself. There could be all kinds of reasons to do so. It's a trade, but names always tell a story.
 
It's not just that they were vague, but also that there was only one clue was in the right direction enough (the line between Reorte and Riedquat), and a bunch of others that were either in a direction too far away (this including how the Formidine Rift settlements were on a line between the Heart and Soul nebulae and the bubble), irrelevant, or even false.
Yes, very true. It's quite possible that the Reorte-Riedquat direction clue (and the accompanying approximate distance), if it had been released nowadays - with routine coordinate entry to journals, good estimates for boxel contents, etc. - might have led to it being solved within a few months by a suitably quantitative expedition conducting a properly systematic search.

The follow-up point is would FDev simply move the unique interesting location to a different system (or get rid of it) if the system became explored but the interesting location remained undiscovered. Because now the likelihood of the interesting location becoming discovered is 99.99% less than before.
This is implicitly setting out a very specific set of criteria for where this location is and how it expects to be found, though, for that to be a risk at all.

- it has to be far enough away from the bubble (or other high-profile waypoint) that it gets visited approximately twice by random chance in the overall game lifetime
- it has to be close enough to that focus of travel that it's going to get visited at all
- the relative obscurity of the system is the only thing preventing the location being found (no permits, no license requirements, no weird conditions, no hiding it at an unmarked surface location, etc etc)
- conversely, there are no clues which might reasonably direct someone to look in that system or even that general area (or they'd conduct a more detailed search regardless of the presence of a few tags on some of the systems)
- it's something important enough to be more than of minor interest if discovered
- it's also something for which (see point 4) there's no requirement from Frontier's side for it to be discovered on any particular timescale or indeed at all

Given that point 4 is extremely rare for anything also fitting point 5 (Raxxla is arguably the only known case, if you exclude accidental Stellar Forge curiosities like GGGs or the World of Death, and I wouldn't believe point 3 holds for that one) ... point 6 implies very strongly that they wouldn't move it in that case, because there's no expectation that it should be discovered, so no need to ensure that the set of people "explorers who only explore systems thoroughly if no-one else has tagged anything in them" stand an equal chance to anyone else.

Conversely, if Frontier were to later decide that it needed to be discovered, then an approximate location clue would be sufficient to cause search parties to check everywhere including previously tagged systems, so also no need to move it.
 
... the system was already discovered and scanned by Cmdr QuickScan, maybe several years ago?

Something like that (though not 'biggest find in ED history' by any stretch) happened to me some months ago. I was trying out different star system mapping techniques in Pencil Sector, a very well explored sector, when I stumbled on a Guardian Structure that I could not locate in the standard IGAU list. The system (entry star) had been discovered, the planetary system star (B) also, the planet (Pencil Sector BQ-X b1-4 b2) had also been discovered, and mapped-and-first-footfalled by three or four different people, at least in-game, but apparently not submitted to EDDN.

I did not discover this by eye: I was testing out tools like jgrep / JSON-grep / shell scripts for log file processing, and just happened to try looking for 'other' signals. So I could easily have missed it myself. And I did do just that: those tests also showed I had totally missed another Guardian Structure just a few days earlier -- although that one was already discovered and entered into the appropriate ledgers, so that's more a personal discovery failure, than a 'failure' of someone else.

My best guess is: early explorers with progressively better discovery scanners, more developed discovery protocols or tools and/or taking more time on not excitingly valuable bodies. It could also have been some kind of expedition effort, with reports to administrators only. (That might help explain why even brown dwarfs are so well explored in this sector.)

No reason to scorn those efforts: even failures provide useful data. Rather, measure and identify sources of systematic errors, and eliminate them or reduce them, one by one. Some roads are made by walking.

Your question, however, asks questions that can only be answered once Raxxla (or the D/W) have been nailed down. Before that happens, those questions have no answers outside some inner circle of Frontier. I suspect that few if any data collecting sites have developed protocols for handling reports of the same body from different times that differ significantly: I have looked for any policies, but not found them. This probably means that eyes are currently on other things, and so changes would pass relatively unnoticed. Or that Odyssey was expected to change things so much that previous iterations would simply be consigned to the dustbin.

One of the more interesting questions I have dreamed up lately: is the data we retrieve from ESDN (or other sites) the same as we once sent in to EDDN/elsewhere? I mean 100% the same? If not, do we know what data is affected? Again, if not, we might have a fat systematic error source right in our data feeds.
 
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I suspect that few if any data collecting sites have developed protocols for handling reports of the same body from different times that differ significantly: I have looked for any policies, but not found them. This probably means that eyes are currently on other things, and so changes would pass relatively unnoticed. Or that Odyssey was expected to change things so much that previous iterations would simply be consigned to the dustbin.
From what I understand, generally most sites tend to check if a new upload of an existing system / body / etc has anything new or different about it, and if it does, then the new values overwrite the old. As far as I know, this has worked well, with relatively few issues. Most of those stemmed from earlier versions of the game writing less information to the journal files anyway.

One of the more interesting questions I have dreamed up lately: is the data we retrieve from ESDN (or other sites) the same as we once sent in to EDDN/elsewhere? I mean 100% the same? If not, do we know what data is affected?
I can't seem to find anything named ESDN, so I can't comment on it (unless you meant EDSM perhaps?), but generally, what you download is almost entirely the same as what you uploaded. The only difference that comes to my mind that actually came up as important was that some sites round some values from what was logged in the journals to how many digits are visible in-game. For example, if the system map displays 183 K but the journal logs 183.120015 K, then the site(s) rounded that to 183 K.
 
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