Pay2Win made it to Elite

[Vogel_238]

Where's the pay to win?
What exactly do you win in Elite?

This is nowt like pay to win.
The Python is basically pay to get it early, just like pre purchase of an expansion.
Pre built ships and easier engineering will bring more folks to the game.

O7

where is pay to win?

let's do a little little duel, and we start at the same point from scratch. u cant use ARX but i do. we meet in an hour. you will arrive in your sidewinder with one new module that you can afford with credits you have, and I arrive in an FDL or Vette, which I bought for arx just to 'skip the grind'
Who do you think will win?

 

[Brrokk]

where is pay to win?

let's do a little little duel, and we start at the same point from scratch. u cant use ARX but i do. we meet in an hour. you will arrive in your sidewinder with one new module that you can afford with credits you have, and I arrive in an FDL or Vette, which I bought for arx just to 'skip the grind'
Who do you think will win?

I think there's been a lot of misunderstanding here. As I understand the FD announcement, you pay ARX to unlock the Python II early, and then you still have to buy it with credits in the game. I guess that will apply to other pre-engineered ships in future too. No-one is going to be skipping gameplay.

 

[Vogel_238]

I think there's been a lot of misunderstanding here. As I understand the FD announcement, you pay ARX to unlock the Python II early, and then you still have to buy it with credits in the game. I guess that will apply to other pre-engineered ships in future too. No-one is going to be skipping gameplay.

let's agree on a duel in python mk2 I buy beforehand and train with it for 3 months learning its flight model, weapon specifics, heating etc.
we fight 10 minutes after you buy it
do I have an advantage or not?

 

[Northpin]

rom the Update site: "A ‘Pre-built’ ship package will include instant-access to a pre-fitted ship, a ship kit, and a paintjob – and will typically be themed to match an activity within the game. For example, if you’re looking to jump into the current AX conflict against the Titans, the AX Combat Jumpstart package will give instant access to an Alliance Chieftain with all the necessary modules to go straight into the action within the maelstrom."

If it does NOT come with engineered modules, this is a lie. You do not go into a Maelstrom with unengineered ships. (Except of course the Top 1% Pilots who do this to produce Youtube Videos but i doubt they target the Top 1% of Pilots with this.)

Yea, we need to find out what "pre-build" means in FD terms, cause it may be a basic A-rated ship, no engineering - or maybe they will add pre-engineered stuff for all modules instead of FSD and some AX weapons.

And no, it's not a lie if you base you opinions on your dreams.txt assumptions

3 Month early access and pre-built ships for real life Moneys.

I think i have saved 16k arx for each of my accounts - so i will probably be able to get the Python Mk2 earlier.
Else, at 400 free ark per week - if you start saving now, you can still get it before August 7th

Anyways, some wanted more stuff for arx in the shop - but apparently not everyone.
And I guess FDev really needs more more cash and decided to monetize some aspects of the game - which i'm not really against it, if i see it as a mean to support the game

 

[Viajero]

I think there's been a lot of misunderstanding here. As I understand the FD announcement, you pay ARX to unlock the Python II early, and then you still have to buy it with credits in the game. I guess that will apply to other pre-engineered ships in future too. No-one is going to be skipping gameplay.

That would make good sense indeed. The note is not fully clear there though.

 

[varonica]

That would make good sense indeed. The note is not fully clear there though.

Probably find out more in the talk.

 

[Ozric]

I feel like this question is a reflexive troll at this point to P2W accusations. It never adds anything and always fails analysis of the common use of the term and its inclusion of pay to skip or pay for power in potentially competitive scenarios.

Come off it. You know P2W covers a wide range of bad practices that any sensible player should be wary of at a minimum.

P2W it a catch all term for: literal paying to win something, paying to skip content, paying to progress, paying to get in game assets that affect gameplay, etc.

Really we should find a different term for it just to stop the "what do you win?" response.

And yet you didn't think the OP was trolly

I've been paying to win with this game since the Beta then. When my Kickstarter pledge got me early access to the game (Gamma), a better starting ship, more credits, access to the Sol and Shinrarta Dhezra systems without needing to meet the ingame requirements, reduced costs on rebuys, the free Imperial Eagle when that was introduced, and of course the two expansions. Can't remember if we get reduced fuel costs, but fuel costs barely nothing these days anyway.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

I guess that will apply to other pre-engineered ships in future too.

For the Python 2 I can see that it might work that way, but I don't see how that would make sense to apply to things like the "AX Combat Jumpstart" Chieftain
- if it's only modules, not engineering, what are you actually getting for your ARX if you have to pay the credits too? (Sure, shipkit and paint, but you can get those already anyway and maybe in a combination you like better)
- if it comes pre-engineered even at a low grade, then the credit requirement is hardly the bit that time is being saved on, especially for something like a Chieftain, and especially if you haven't unlocked all the engineers yet

 

[Viajero]

For the Python 2 I can see that it might work that way, but I don't see how that would make sense to apply to things like the "AX Combat Jumpstart" Chieftain
- if it's only modules, not engineering, what are you actually getting for your ARX if you have to pay the credits too? (Sure, shipkit and paint, but you can get those already anyway and maybe in a combination you like better)
- if it comes pre-engineered even at a low grade, then the credit requirement is hardly the bit that time is being saved on, especially for something like a Chieftain, and especially if you haven't unlocked all the engineers yet

Well, in your chieftain example, and depending on how many actual credits we are talking about, this system suggested by @Brrokk would allow players to grind the required credits in the way they find most fun or interesting instead of being forced to go through very specific engineering or AX farming tasks they may not like.

You would still need to grind, but you could decide the type of grind. Full flexibility and it would greatly mitigate, if not fully eliminate, the pay to win factor from the equation. It would also serve as an alternative and significant credit sink in the game.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

And yet you didn't think the OP was trolly

I've been paying to win with this game since the Beta then. When my Kickstarter pledge got me early access to the game (Gamma), a better starting ship, more credits, access to the Sol and Shinrarta Dhezra systems without needing to meet the ingame requirements, reduced costs on rebuys, the free Imperial Eagle when that was introduced, and of course the two expansions. Can't remember if we get reduced fuel costs, but fuel costs barely nothing these days anyway.

Yes, that is p2w, too. Can't deny that you had an substantial advantage compared to me e.g.

 

[Northpin]

Yes, that is p2w, too. Can't deny that you had an substantial advantage compared to me e.g.

Compared to you, anyone actually playing the game has an advantage
For example i think i have 16k arx stashed for all my 3 accounts - by playing mostly plus some leftovers from purchases that are some 1+ year old
As another example, just by logging in daily for 2 weeks pre-XMass - one could get like 3200 arx on top of the 400 weekly arx by playing the game.

 

[Ozric]

Can't deny that you had an substantial advantage compared to me e.g.

I don't think I ever have.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Well, in your chieftain example, and depending on how many actual credits we are talking about, this system suggested by @Brrokk would allow players to grind the required credits in the way they find most fun or interesting instead of being forced to go through very specific engineering or AX farming tasks they may not like.

So you're suggesting that it could allow you to get a pre-engineered Chieftain for 1 billion credits + 15000 ARX, rather than for the regular 100 million credits + big pile of materials?

That's an interesting alternative, though certainly not the impression I got from the announcement.

Ah well, we'll find out in a week or two anyway.

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

Sheesh. They make a relatively minor announcement and people are treating it like it's the end of the world as we know it.

Relax, people. Take it easy. Take a deep breath.

"Wehret den Anfängen !"

 

[Darkfyre99]

So does anyone have a clue to what I might win if I buy me a new shiny Python Mk II before the rest of the common rabble?

When people talk about pay-to-win, they’re rarely talking about paying to automatically win a contest. They’re talking about paying for an advantage. This can be anywhere from time saving conveniences to premium equipment. A lot of people draw the line at the purchase of in-game assets.

Most people concerned about increasing the amount of pay to win in this game are talking about the purchase of pre-built ships. Frontier used some rather… ambiguous syntax in this sentence:

“Pre-Built Ship packages will offer Commanders the opportunity to purchase ships that have been given a significant upgrade from their base models.”

There is enough ambiguity here that this sentence could mean anywhere from a minor time savings convenience (I can purchase the Pre-Built Imperial Cutter package with C-Rated modules, but still need to earn credits and Imperial Ranks to actually buy the ship) through the outright purchase of in-game assets (I can spawn in an A-Rated iCutter at any starport that has large landing pads) to premium equipment (these modules will also be fully upgraded to G5 with sensible experimental effects for its role.)

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Compared to you, anyone actually playing the game has an advantage
For example i think i have 16k arx stashed for all my 3 accounts - by playing mostly plus some leftovers from purchases that are some 1+ year old
As another example, just by logging in daily for 2 weeks pre-XMass - one could get like 3200 arx on top of the 400 weekly arx by playing the game.

I don't know what Arx has to do with it but fine, anyone playing longer also has advantage over new players. Which can pose a problem in MMOs.

 

[Viajero]

So you're suggesting that it could allow you to get a pre-engineered Chieftain for 1 billion credits + 15000 ARX, rather than for the regular 100 million credits + big pile of materials?

That's an interesting alternative, though certainly not the impression I got from the announcement.

Ah well, we'll find out in a week or two anyway.

A billion credits may be a bit excessive I reckon that striking the right amount of credits in order to reasonably balance the thing could be tricky. But that was the idea suggested indeed. This of course is not clear at all from the FDEV note and the way I read it also suggests to me the deal is only about Arx, not also credits. We ll see.

 

[zimms]

Will we now see an influx of Star Citizen backers now you can buy spaceships for real world money?

Wouldn't mind if that paid for proper expansions in the future.

But it's funny to see how people who didn't miss a single chance to make fun of SC for selling ships for RL money are now supporting Frontier's decision.

 

[carlisle]

This is not attracting the right players, but attracting gambling addictive gamers, similar to fans of the world of tanks.

As a result, this is what will happen: a bunch of newcomers on freshly purchased top ships will break into an open game, destroying everyone in a row.

For example they will attack players even in areas with Thargoids. As a result, many old players will go solo. Conventions will appear in the form of a ban on firing at allies as in War Thunder. The game will begin to die.

How is it akin to gambling though, you know what you get for your money?

Also they were quite clear on prebuilt ships being aimed at providing access to playstyles that typically you have to have played the game for many hours before you can try, they said nothing about giving these players a competitive advantage in PvP or these being 'top ships'.

A lot of people seem to be able to predict the future in this thread and people have been doing that since the game was in kickstarter. I wonder how many of the people who are confident that this is the first step towards ED being fully pay2win and the death of the game were saying the same when ARX was first introduced years and years ago, there were even people saying that the in-game advantages being offered as kickstarter perks were proof that the game would be pay2win... they've been wrong every single time so I don't see them being right now.

 

[Rory12]

How is it akin to gambling though, you know what you get for your money?

Very simple. Some people want ultimate superiority over others. Nowadays, a gank requires a lot of grinding, but with arx you can immediately start by exterminating everyone in the open.