Pay2Win made it to Elite

[Ozric]

So how they get more money does not bother you? Is there a line for you that is unacceptable? What behaviour (by a developer) would you consider too far?

Some of us have standards and expect better from other people and companies. Yes I understand Frontier as a company have to make a profit, but is this really the morally right way to go about it? Blur the line between fair and unfair and not give a damn if people don't like it? Are you ok with that? Because I am not.

And your line is now, rather than all the other times in the past they've sold access to ships for money? You were also OK with the addition of a Premium Currency which makes people spend more than they need to in order to get what they want?

I think the most telling thing is that if Frontier just wanted to make money off of the community then they, like virtually all MMOs that add a premium currency would have started selling in game items within the first year. Not 4 1/2 years later.

 

[Winterwalker]

Resurrected my old forum account just to comment that it is once again PAINFUL seeing the usual Frontier worshippers try and defend this. Seeing people defend this god awful decision is honestly so disappointing. This community is not what it once was.

Unfortunately it's not 1984 any more either, 4/10ths of a century ago now .
Not an FD worshipper either. Elite? Guilty as charged.

If the ’grind’ is a bad design, Frontier are offering you a solution to buy your way out of that bad design. Making money from what is perceived as faulty game design sounds like a second best solution to me as a consumer. Still I’m no worse off than before, but also no better off.

Not saying I think it's a grind, I DID play Elite84. A procedural game swimming in a mostly scripted environment? Maybe yeah.

Kids today huh? Grumbles, mumbles ... then plays some SLF (Tin Soldiers!)
edit: SLF, linked

 

[Peter Mannion]

Unfortunately it's not 1984 any more either, 4/10ths of a century ago now .
Not an FD worshipper either. Elite? Guilty as charged.

Ive only been a fan since I got ED back in 2015. This community isnt what it once was even 3-4 years ago. My guess is that the community has crumbled and all thats left are the shills and the whiteknights ... shame

 

[amigacooke]

Resurrected my old forum account just to comment that it is once again PAINFUL seeing the usual Frontier worshippers try and defend this. Seeing people defend this god awful decision is honestly so disappointing. This community is not what it once was. It’s so cringe seeing the usual whiteknights twerking for lord braben thinking hes gonna give them the route to raxxla or something.

I’m not disappointed because the community is not a single entity and therefore is bound to have differing opinions.

Frontier have, maybe inadvertently, undermined the LEP and are releasing a ship as paid content for three months.

Frontier’s credibility has taken another knock (for me at least) because in 2019 a Frontier representative said when ARX was introduced, ‘As always with our optional additional purchases, ARX can only be used to buy cosmetic Game Extras and will not be used to introduce and acquire pay-to-win purchases’.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Don't forget the pies!!

Wholesome and rich with luxurious gravy. Just like grandma made.

Grandma made the best roasts and cakes. Pie country was always over yonder. Roast, dumplings and some surprise veggies.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

And your line is now, rather than all the other times in the past they've sold access to ships for money? You were also OK with the addition of a Premium Currency which makes people spend more than they need to in order to get what they want?

I think the most telling thing is that if Frontier just wanted to make money off of the community then they, like virtually all MMOs that add a premium currency would have started selling in game items within the first year. Not 4 1/2 years later.

Isn't ED rather like a decade old?

 

[Peter Mannion]

Once upon a time it was Star Citizen degenerates that would immediately counter the argument of Pay to Win with "well what do you win exactly?".

"You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain"

To those defending this decision of FDev milking every last penny out of a dying game is not only disappointing, it is also disrespectful to the amount of hard work and passion that had been poured into this game during its initial development. Imagine the opinions of some of the initial developers of this game, some of whom are sadly no longer with us, seeing that in Elite Dangerous' twilight years, instead of celebrating what made the game so great they instead try and squeeze every last drop of money through the introduction of awful Pay to Win monetisation. Its commercial corporate nonsense and not something that is remotely appropriate for an initially CROWD FUNDED game. It destroys the legacy and the history of this game as it will be forever tarnished in the memories of everyone. I'd be embarrassed and ashamed to be seen defending this

 

[Winterwalker]

Frontier’s credibility has taken another knock (for me at least) because in 2019 a Frontier representative said when ARX was introduced, ‘As always with our optional additional purchases, ARX can only be used to buy cosmetic Game Extras and will not be used to introduce and acquire pay-to-win purchases’.

Then they had a bad launch on a published title .. then interest rates went up ..
I get it but much worser things can happen at sea.

It destroys the legacy and the history of this game as it will be forever tarnished in the memories of everyone. I'd be embarrassed and ashamed to be seen defending this

Have you seen the ships FD are proposing as Jumpstarters!?? lol

 

[Peter Mannion]

Have you seen the ships FD are proposing as Jumpstarters!?? lol

I don't understand your point. Its the principle of P2W, not the content thats the issue for me

 

[IstvaanDCIV]

I don't understand your point. Its the principle of P2W, not the content thats the issue

If you're making your argument based on principle, then anything gained by players outside gameplay counts as crossing the line, and arguments could be made that FDev crossed that line back when they were offering the Cobra MkIV. Which was years before I even started playing. Did you start playing after Horizons?

 

[Peter Mannion]

If you're making your argument based on principle, then anything gained by players outside gameplay counts as crossing the line, and arguments could be made that FDev crossed that line back when they were offering the Cobra MkIV. Which was years before I even started playing. Did you start playing after Horizons?

The Cobra MKIV was a poor decision. Many within the community, like yourself, still bring it up despite the 0 advantage it gives players. However, lets not start using the Cobra MKIV as an excuse for what this P2W scheme is. Its completely different with different motives. The motivation for this change is purely based on squeezing more money out of the game using shady techniques. That wasn't the intention with the Cobra (however was a poor judgement from Fdev imo). I started playing before Horizons yes.

 

[IstvaanDCIV]

The Cobra MKIV was a poor decision. Many within the community, like yourself, still bring it up despite the 0 advantage it gives players. However, lets not start using the Cobra MKIV as an excuse for what this P2W scheme is. Its completely different with different motives. The motivation for this change is purely based on squeezing more money out of the game using shady techniques. That wasn't the intention with the Cobra (however was a poor judgement from Fdev imo). I started playing before Horizons yes.

I'm sorry, but if you're basing your argument on principle (it's always bad) rather than contingency (it's not always bad), then it doesn't matter what the motivation is, the principle has still been violated. If motivations and effects and context and so on are ever things that do matter as to whether a particular development is bad, then it's not really a question of principle, is it? That just means you're drawing the line differently as to when it is and isn't acceptable. Otherwise you'd stop playing after the Cobra MkIV was introduced, wouldn't you?

Speaking of motivation, I'm not sure that we can say with certainty that the motivation behind this latest monetisation scheme is solely to do with money. No doubt making money is an objective, but that was always the case, especially since FDev became a publicly traded company, which if I'm correct happened all the way in July 2013. But there can exist other motivations, even within a PLC. My suspicion is that FDev is trying to expand the potential audience of ED, and that they reckon selling pre-built ships will broaden the game's appeal to those who might otherwise have been put off by what they might see as the game's grind.

Personally I'm happy to keep on getting stuff by playing the game, and any Arx I do acquire will be spent on cosmetic items only. I'd also like to think that the playerbase of ED has an opportunity to effectively "vote with their Arx", and would like to encourage everyone else to likewise attempt to steer the future direction of Arx-purchased releases towards more cosmetic items. But if FDev start introducing exclusive ships and modules that cannot be obtained from gameplay, that will be my line crossed and I'll have to stop playing.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

If you're making your argument based on principle, then anything gained by players outside gameplay counts as crossing the line, and arguments could be made that FDev crossed that line back when they were offering the Cobra MkIV.

Or indeed the various Kickstarter benefits. I still get 25% cheaper rebuys than almost anyone else in game, on every ship I own. It's not quite as good as free, but still, all else equal you're going to run out of ships first (all else never equal, obviously) - it must have saved me at least 10 million credits over the years. The motivation for offering those benefits (and there are bigger ones I don't have) was absolutely openly to try to squeeze more money out of the to-be-players-later base and actually get across the funding target line. (Some of them very much on the "we'll offer it then figure out how to do it" approach of pre-Horizons Frontier, too)

The principle has never been wholly adhered to; in terms of further movement down the slippery slope it's actually quite interesting to see how many restrictions Frontier seem to be putting in to make that harder in the short term. (Oh, they'll get there eventually, no doubt, but they do seem to be aware and trying to keep the brakes on for now)
- the pre-built ships aren't particularly good builds ("minimally usable" seems to be the design goal)
- the pre-fitted modules can't be stored, so you can't use them on a more useful ship and you can't even temporarily take them off the ship to try something different without losing them permanently

Given just how strongly they're sticking to "pay to mediocre", I do actually wonder if they'll make more from the actual sales than they lose in goodwill on the principle from players who aren't the market for these things.

 

[Darrack]

So how they get more money does not bother you? Is there a line for you that is unacceptable? What behaviour (by a developer) would you consider too far?

I fail to see what Fdev have or are doing wrong that justifies all the backlash, how else would you like them to make money to increase development?
Pay to access things early? Many companies do this - take a look at ESO
Pay to buy pre-built ships - its only the same as buying mounts etc in other games/MMOs
In game currency - pretty much every game has this and sells it for cash, no biggy as long as it can be earned in game, Fdev actually give it away free!

Nobody is forcing anyone to buy anything, its not pay to win, there is no advantage other than a boost which again many successful MMOs offer.

I backed SC from the start with a minimum amount, never bought any more ships, you can earn them in game (yes they get wiped), do i care that many spend thousands of pounds on ships? No its their money and i don't criticise CIG for their business model just their inability to actually produce a working game.

Fdev need money for development, the doomers don't seem to be coming up with any alternatives to raise funds.

O7

 

[Peter Mannion]

I'm sorry, but if you're basing your argument on principle (it's always bad) rather than contingency (it's not always bad), then it doesn't matter what the motivation is, the principle has still been violated. If motivations and effects and context and so on are ever things that do matter as to whether a particular development is bad, then it's not really a question of principle, is it? That just means you're drawing the line differently as to when it is and isn't acceptable. Otherwise you'd stop playing after the Cobra MkIV was introduced, wouldn't you?

Speaking of motivation, I'm not sure that we can say with certainty that the motivation behind this latest monetisation scheme is solely to do with money. No doubt making money is an objective, but that was always the case, especially since FDev became a publicly traded company, which if I'm correct happened all the way in July 2013. But there can exist other motivations, even within a PLC. My suspicion is that FDev is trying to expand the potential audience of ED, and that they reckon selling pre-built ships will broaden the game's appeal to those who might otherwise have been put off by what they might see as the game's grind.

Personally I'm happy to keep on getting stuff by playing the game, and any Arx I do acquire will be spent on cosmetic items only. I'd also like to think that the playerbase of ED has an opportunity to effectively "vote with their Arx", and would like to encourage everyone else to likewise attempt to steer the future direction of Arx-purchased releases towards more cosmetic items. But if FDev start introducing exclusive ships and modules that cannot be obtained from gameplay, that will be my line crossed and I'll have to stop playing.

Oh lets also wait and see the amount of hours required to grind ARX before you can buy a prebuilt ship. Id suspect the hours (probably days/weeks) will essentially render them not obtainable from gameplay anyway - typical Fdev!

Anyway I either detect someone arguing for arguments sake and being facetious, or you genuinely cannot tell the difference between what happened with the Cobra and this. Fact of the matter is that the Cobra literally offered no advantage to players. It was basically like a shipkit. This does offer a significant unfair advantage to those with deep wallets. Either way, I see it as an attempt from you to explain and excuse this awful EA-like tactic of game monetisation and you should be embarrassed to be seen defending it. P2W has never been in the ethos of this game until now. I've been about this forum long enough to know when its acceptable to debate in grey areas, and imo this isn't one of them. Stop shilling for Fdev - wake up and smell the coffee.

 

[Darkfyre99]

On the other hand if they get more money they can do more

It’s how they get more money that concerns me. Ideally, they should be get more money by making a great game people want to play. The development team have proven that they have this capacity, but seem to be hobbled by management’s poor decisions. The sale of cosmetics are also acceptable, because they don’t affect gameplay, especially once night vision was added to the game.

Once pay-to-win elements are added, things start to become sketchy. Frontier pretty much started out with pay-to-win in the Kickstarter: pay-for-early access; pay-for capabilities; and pay-for-assets. The latter, admittedly minor, was supposed to be Kickstarter only. They also canceled pay-for-credits after widespread complaints that this went too far, and have repeatedly promised that they would not go the pay-for-assets route again.

Well, it took 12 years, but the promise of easy money has proven to be too strong. So here they are, offering players everything they want, if they just feed them even more money. But I’ve seen this scenario, and it (almost) never ends well:

Source: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KNHrzZUascE

 

[Darrack]

Ideally, they should be get more money by making a great game people want to play

Elite is a hard game, it takes time, imagination and the ability to create your own content some of the time, this isn't popular with todays pew pew spoon fed, instant win player base.
Fdev make the best space sim available but we are a small voice shouting that in a huge ocean, yes more players is more money but unless you go subscription you still need to pay folks somehow to continue all the free stuff we get (CGs, Thargs etc).
ESO has a player base over 23million, a subscription if you want it, over priced DLCs and housing that costs well over 100quid, is anyone moaning about that business model?
Is it hugely successful? I think we need to get some perspective here.

O7

 

[Darkfyre99]

And your line is now, rather than all the other times in the past they've sold access to ships for money? You were also OK with the addition of a Premium Currency which makes people spend more than they need to in order to get what they want?

I think the most telling thing is that if Frontier just wanted to make money off of the community then they, like virtually all MMOs that add a premium currency would have started selling in game items within the first year. Not 4 1/2 years later.

Personally, it’s yet another example of convincing myself, besides my misgivings, that this time, things will be different. That they promised they wouldn’t cross a line that shouldn’t be crossed. That maybe I should ignore the warning signs, because it remains the only modern game in a genre I enjoy, and it’s still fairly decent, despite FD’s frequent mismanagement.

And I find myself still bargaining with myself that these “jumpstarters” aren’t that bad, and they’ll never evolve into something particularly egregious. I want to see the rest of the paid expansions I gambled on with my LEP, right? I can afford the occasional tenner, right???

 

[Rat Catcher]

Frontier see you as someone to give them money.

Indeed so, they are a business, not a charity

So how they get more money does not bother you?

Not in the least, why should it?

Unless they are mugging randoms in the street, that may bother me a little!

 

[IstvaanDCIV]

Oh lets also wait and see the amount of hours required to grind ARX before you can buy a prebuilt ship. Id suspect the hours (probably days/weeks) will essentially render them not obtainable from gameplay anyway - typical Fdev!

Anyway I either detect someone arguing for arguments sake and being facetious, or you genuinely cannot tell the difference between what happened with the Cobra and this. Fact of the matter is that the Cobra literally offered no advantage to players. It was basically like a shipkit. This does offer a significant unfair advantage to those with deep wallets. Either way, I see it as an attempt from you to explain and excuse this awful EA-like tactic of game monetisation and you should be embarrassed to be seen defending it. P2W has never been in the ethos of this game until now. I've been about this forum long enough to know when its acceptable to debate in grey areas, and imo this isn't one of them. Stop shilling for Fdev - wake up and smell the coffee.

We don't yet know what the earning rate for free Arx will be yet, I'm not sure if FDev have confirmed what changes if any will be happening to that in particular. If I wanted to build either of the example builds we've been shown so far, then I could do that without spending any Arx.

What advantages are offered by the builds FDev have actually talked about? They no better than what I could build using credits and materials; the mining ship doesn't even have a surface scanner!