We'll all just have to wait and see what's next.
Please keep BGS and PP 2.0 separate
- Thread starter Hekateh
- Start date
Hard disagree there. That's how the BGS was when it was added to the game. But since those many years it got many dedicated major updates, patches and fixes, turning it into a legitimate game play loop for hundred sof players in the game. BGS works far better as a gameplay mechanic than PP 1.0 ever did.
I have already heard from a few BGS playing friends of mine that they will basically stop BGSing to see how the PP 2.0 fallout looks like. As one guy put it: "Have you seen PP2 on stream? Whats the point of BGSing when everything falls apart in summer?"
But we will have to see.
Yes, FD did acknowledge how people used the BGS more over time, but they've always been quite explicit about the core intent of the BGS. I'd need to dig out the last video we got on the BGS (was just before the last major overhaul of it), and while it was the most explicitly they ever acknowledged it, they still presented the BGS as "the malleable environment".
And absolutely, playing with the BGS has always been a far better experience than PP; because PP1 was a completely botched attempt to capture what people enjoyed in the BGS.
To flip your position on it's head... at the time of PP1, many of the major groups running BGS stuff like (e.g Lugh) were very excited for PP1 and it was... well... trash, by comparison.
Where the BGS is right now is exactly where so many other mechanics have landed in the game (e.g Mining 2.0)... started out life setting a false expectation of what it was all about before ultimately having FD attempt to correct the issue, only, far too late. To elaborate on, say, the Mining 2.0, the whole Borann loop and how selling LTDs worked was the most broken thing they ever created. If they'd just tweaked things within the first month or two (with an acknowledgement it wasn't working the way they intended) then nobody would've batted an eyelid. But because FD took over two years to correct it, by the time that adjustment came out, no matter how correct it was, it eliminated now-highly-entrenched game loops. It was the right technical call, but FD's tardiness meant it would never be the right call in the eyes of players.
So too would it be for the BGS, only over a far greater period of time, and over a series of much more botched mechanics.
- Players were meant to be interested in the Superpowers, not the factions. For some reason, FD's never done anything to incentivise Superpower loyalty beyond the glorified permit and ship unlock system (which is, as far as a superpower interaction mechanic goes, pretty trash)
- FD introduced PMFs, thinking this was just the opportunity for players to add some "creative flair" to the universe[1]... not realising players were submitting them as vehicles for their groups to be "represented" within the game.. leading to very problematic, accepted submissions early on, before they gripped up the submission process, which itself was always doomed from the get-go.
- PP was meant to apply the balanced group-vs-group overlay to the game to give that buzz players got from BGS manipulation... and completely failed to capture that spirit.
- BGS 2.1(?) managed to completely break antagonistic gameplay, as negative states like Bust, Famine, Outbreak, Civil unrest and Lockdown became virtually non-existent due to those changes.
- New BGS states got added with half the effort of the existing ones, with no major effects on mission types, flavour text or other environmentals.
- Most recently, PMF introduction is now canned... because that was the inevitable outcome.
That last one in particular... if we're appealing to the modern interpretation of the BGS, then it's completely broken while that remains shut down, and so it's a fools errand imo to suggest that "the way the BGS gets used now has changed from old" as a reason to not take the "empire building" aspect players have grown from the BGS behind the shed and put it out of it's misery... because the way it's been used no longer works without a way for a new group to add their faction.
At a stab, it would take major effort to re-engineer the BGS in a way that allowed a sane way for players to surface their own factions in the game.
tl;dr Current BGS is broken and unsustainable... and this is PP2.0, not BGS2.0.
[1] Much like player galnet, which was a similar thing, but players used it to shape the universe instead... a completely unintended outcome, and one which caused a lot of problems before finally being canned.
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I'm hoping PP V2 brings back the BGS violence, frankly. The BGS when I left it seems to want to package up 'bad' actions rather than allow players to do what they want.
I don't think it's practical to keep BGS and PP separate and have Powerplay have any in-game effects at all, just because of how far the tendrils of the BGS spread into everything.
Even a trivial power like "20% better prices for battle weapons" encourages flipping the government to one where they're legal.
1) Passing traffic turns every semi-busy system into a constant warzone.
2) Even out on the fringes where there's an unaligned player visiting maybe once a week, attack becomes much easier than defence.
3) All those negative states suddenly start getting a lot of use.
There'd still be substantial advantages - unavoidably so - to the larger groups, but if every system comes with an active overhead to maintain it, then even the bigger groups (especially in desirable spaces) are going to have shed a lot of territory, freeing up the necessary space for new factions to be placed for a long time under a rule of "no PMF controlling or native" rather than "no PMF present".
Even a trivial power like "20% better prices for battle weapons" encourages flipping the government to one where they're legal.
I think it could be relatively straightforward if highly unpopular: just change the mechanic so that every negative effect and mission type which currently targets Criminal factions instead targets system controllers.
1) Passing traffic turns every semi-busy system into a constant warzone.
2) Even out on the fringes where there's an unaligned player visiting maybe once a week, attack becomes much easier than defence.
3) All those negative states suddenly start getting a lot of use.
There'd still be substantial advantages - unavoidably so - to the larger groups, but if every system comes with an active overhead to maintain it, then even the bigger groups (especially in desirable spaces) are going to have shed a lot of territory, freeing up the necessary space for new factions to be placed for a long time under a rule of "no PMF controlling or native" rather than "no PMF present".
My personal opinion is that the BGS already works in a solid and good way, and is one of the few core mechanics that Elite offers that are proper and balanced. Mining being the other one. BGS offers far more longevity and player interaction with the game than any other mechanic, and fits neatly into their "personal narrative" and "blace your own trail" philosphy in the game. On the other hand you have PP, which is in a stand-still between two larger powers, with some minor powers just being there because it would upset five people in a random discord if they were removed from the game. It should be PP 1.0 that should be dragged behind the barn, and replaced by minor faction powers - and preferably hundreds of them - that can rise and fall depending on player support. But that's my opinion, and I am well aware that I am in the minority with this.
But instead of looking at the BGS crowd and PP crowd and make sure the two can happily coexist, they seem to be going to bet their money on the PP crowd instead. Perhaps hoping that the BGS people either weather through, or give up and join the PP crowd instead. They can of course go that route, and it seems - according to the live stream - that indeed they are. And perhaps from a financial stand point, or from a game longevity standpoint, it makes the most sense to FDev.
Let me play the devils advocate for a moment:
The PP crowd is already here, established, and entrenched and it can absorb new players. With plot armour to the powers, they are not going anywhere, meaning regardless when you join the game you always have some figureheads to support. No matter if PP is in a state of absolute stalemate.
The BGS crowd has it a ton harder: BGS has no "fixed" communities as minor powers are fleeting, so its harder to find a point of entry. If you wish to start your own, you will soon find that all "good" systems are already occupied. PMF applications are disabled. And if you do make some system your home chances are incredibly high that a larger squadron will just flatten you outright. And if another larger PMF won't flatten you, then the PP hoardes will if you dare to chose the wrong faction type. And if you do survive, and even thrive, BGS rules are incredibly eldritch and arcane, that it takes a discord community of 10 hardcore BGSers to decipher its rules. BGS is not compatible with the people they seem to be fishing for, that just "looking to support some power in a 20 mins game session" (quoting the lead game designer).
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sigh[1]My personal opinion is that the BGS already works in a solid and good way, and is one of the few core mechanics that Eoffers that are proper and balanced. Mining being the other one. BGS offers far more longevity and player interaction with the game than any other mechanic, and fits neatly into their "personal narrative" and "blace your own trail" philosphy in the game. On the other hand you have PP, which is in a stand-still between two larger powers, with some minor powers just being there because it would upset five people in a random discord if they were removed from the game. It should be PP 1.0 that should be dragged behind the barn, and replaced by minor faction powers - and preferably hundreds of them - that can rise and fall depending on player support. But that's my opinion, and I am well aware that I am in the minority with this.
But instead of looking at the BGS crowd and PP crowd and make sure the two can happily coexist, they seem to be going to bet their money on the PP crowd instead. Perhaps hoping that the BGS people either weather through, or give up and join the PP crowd instead. They can of course go that route, and it seems - according to the live stream - that indeed they are. And perhaps from a financial stand point, or from a game longevity standpoint, it makes the most sense to FDev.
Let me play the devils advocate for a moment:
The PP crowd is already here, established, and entrenched and it can absorb new players. With plot armour to the powers, they are not going anywhere, meaning regardless when you join the game you always have some figureheads to support. No matter if PP is in a state of absolute stalemate.
The BGS crowd has it a ton harder: BGS has no "fixed" communities as minor powers are fleeting, so its harder to find a point of entry. If you wish to start your own, you will soon find that all "good" systems are already occupied. PMF applications are disabled. And if you do make some system your home chances are incredibly high that a larger squadron will just flatten you outright. And if another larger PMF won't flatten you, then the PP hoardes will if you dare to chose the wrong faction type. And if you do survive, and even thrive, BGS rules are incredibly eldritch and arcane, that it takes a discord community of 10 hardcore BGSers to decipher its rules. BGS is not compatible with the people they seem to be fishing for, that just "looking to support some power in a 20 mins game session" (quoting the lead game designer).
I'd disagree with this in the context of the game as it stands.
But I can't disagree with it in general. In a world where everything was possible, I would wholeheartedly agree.
The BGS had a lot of potential if it were treated as the thing it gets used for, and FD leaned into the opportunity it presented. I would suppose there's some technical barriers with this... but every game I've played that does something BGS-like well has always leaned much harder into the mechanics those mechanics than FD has, even if you can't expand/control wars with them. Starsector and Star Traders: Frontiers are my current go-to's... heck, I keep tossing around the idea of writing my own.
I'll always bat for the BGS as the "background only"... but damn it'd be awesome if we ever got Tier 2/3 faction reps/NPCs, a reputation "store" with procedural services based on various considerations of the NPCs... throw in some more lean-in to procedural missions, scenarios and extenders to those... then throw in a lot more instability to the factional states (again, it's about it being the background) a self-led journey through the factions could be pretty amazing.
EDIT: I would stop short of saying it's balanced; anarchies would beg to differ, as would some of the more busted mission mechanics... but in general, yeah.
[1] that's a whimsical sigh...
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There is also always X4 which has a good flight model, and a very solid "BGS" system with its sector wars, star base building, and economy. I will lean heavier into that if PP 2.0 kills the BGS.
And yes, you are correct, Anarchies are BGS on hard mode; depending on where you are.
Which is actually not a bad thing. The major PG-s and their PMF empires are too entrenched, too comfortable and too widespread. You can't shake a stick and pull shenanigans anywhere without hitting a PMF or several. Ruffling feathers, destroying the landscape as it is now and making expanding/maintaining territory way harder than it is now is sorely needed to bring in fresh air to the stagnating bubble. I'd love to see a Big Reset, clearing all systems of non-native factions and establishing new rules/mechanics that make expansions much harder, negatively affecting factions much easier and maintaining big PMF empires virtually impossible.
Yep, Frontier have made sooooo many bad decisions leading to the game we have today. I was dumbfounded when they didn't make PP basically BGS+. How could they be so blind to the unpolished gem they had in hand.
Big PMFs die and fall all the time. But PP 2.0 will replace big squadrons supporting a PMF with even larger PP communities that rarely, if ever, fall.
If PP 2.0 becomes a crushing force of large BGS squadrons, it will exaggerate the problem. Large BGS squadrons will either quit (as I heard it from a few I know), meaning there will be no push back to PP hordes, or even worse, quit BGS and join PP instead.
Either way, the biggest become even bigger, and the BGS landscape will turn ever more hostile towards localised efforts.
Like it or not, PP V2 is the new BGS - insofar that its BGS like work but has tactical aspects and has ongoing rewards. Supporting a faction provides you with what in the end? PP V2 will have ongoing perks, modules, you can see systems morph to your powers livery, you have better less random ways of expansion, exclusive PP clubhouse FCs, better context for fights.....for once the BGS looks a bit plain from a players perspective as to what they get in return.
I prefer the reward of building my own "mini empire", and my own personal RP & narrative, as well as interacting with the RP of others that have done the same; over pledging to some stock-generic "power", that gets a galnet article once every six months.
I am well aware I am preaching to deaf ears, so I will get my trash-bag-poncho, cardboard sign, and find a nice street corner to preach the apocalypse of Elite's BGS.
For me, BGS is only ever going to work well and properly when there is some way to expand into previously uncontrolled/unpoulated systems. Without the ability to set up a base or a station in a new system, expansion wil be limited to petty wars between factions under the Superpower and PP umbrellas.
Yeah, but one thing is the impact the other is the requirement of flipping systems to handle fort's/undermine triggers... which clearly had some strategic component in the long run, but didn't worked well for the evident fallout and impact to PMFs (and, as a consequence, for the tremendous micro-management work that any power has to do rn).
I've made some comments regarding the BGS/PP 1.0 relationship in my Cycle update here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/cycle-464-changes-and-opportunities.624822/
You can have your own mini empire and actually see it grow (and be rewarded for it), not to mention the RP and narrative so nothing really changes there. The only difference is you are helping out a power leader and not Oscar McTaffy from Generic Boys Aanarchy faction who offers nothing in return except "welcome back, commander".
After trying to be nice to PMFs in the past and being royally screwed over repeatedly by them, they fight, or they die.
Difference is, PP groups don't care what name a controlling faction in a system has, who put it in the game or who put it into the control of the system as long as the government type is favourable (I hope this particular mechanics is also removed in PP 2). In contrast, for BGS player groups grabbing as much land for their and only their minor faction is the main goal. So you end up with large swathes of space controlled by one faction and this makes for a dull landscape.
And gods forbid if you as a random unaffiliated player decide to pull some shenanigans for fun in a random small population system and suddenly the controlling PMF influence drops from 60% to 50% because some other factions offered missions you wanted to do, or you got illegal missions from a neighboring system.
You forgot to add:
- factions only enter expansion when all presence is over 70%, not just one.
Or
- factions only enter expansion when "elated" everywhere
Putting specific brakes on faction expansion I'm not so worried about - controlling 10 systems with 10 factions or controlling 10 systems with 1 faction takes out the same amount of space either way and there are plenty of groups which "back a government type" out there who I don't see any need to advantage over the others ... and a good bit of conflict locking at the top with frequent fights for control is a good way of getting retreats to happen and stick more often for under-visited systems, too.
If you have to fight against Anarchy levels of background in every system you control, getting even one to 75% is going to be troublesome anyway once you get too big for your overheads, which would happen a lot sooner than now for most groups.