Open-Only in PP2.0?

[angusmadmac1]

Question would be are they playing in a different open instance/timezone and it's just you thinking they are solo or PG ??
I/you see noone so they opposition are" cheating ", the other team playing on their timezone instance not seeing the opposition assume they are in Solo or PG .
Who is in the wrong ?because noone instances together ?
If noone in open instances together isn't it just a PG or solo but inadvertent??
Also what are the main issues with PP2 as it stands. Non PvP merits filling up buckets?

 

[Robert Maynard]

It just becomes the tug of war game, which is not fun for neither attackers nor defenders.

Which is "the game" for players who don't play in Open, as they don't instance with their opposition when engaged in pan-modal game features - yet some players who enjoy PvP seem to think that simply because they enjoy that optional play-style that players who don't should not be permitted to affect the game.

.... the game where every single player experiences and affects the mode shared galaxy and where each player can decide on a session-by-session basis how many, or few, players they wish to play among.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I don't know about you but if football or other sports played like the latter it would be pretty dull and get tedious pretty quickly...

It might - however other sports are available for those who would not enjoy it.

I look forward to reading why this isn't a correct analogy (even though it 100% is).

Noting that not all competitive sports allow players in opposing teams to come into contact, that football was specifically chosen to try to make a point is obvious.

Curling, on the other hand....

 

[Brrokk]

The open-only naysayers assume that us open play, PvP players all want easy ganks - but this isn't the case. We want to fix this glaring problem with Powerplays' competitiveness...

What we (open play advocates) are looking for (fair, transparent and competitive):

View attachment 409017

What we currently have and what the status quo advocates want to keep (too easy, exploitable, uncompetitive):

View attachment 409019

I don't know about you but if football or other sports played like the latter it would be pretty dull and get tedious pretty quickly...

I look forward to reading why this isn't a correct analogy (even though it 100% is).

The football pitch thing is nonsense. Even in Open you'll be lucky to instance with two or three other players from either team. Some players will never instance with any others. Some players will play when all the others are asleep. PP is always going to be a bucket-filling thing as it's all a P2P always-on game can provide.

 

[Darkfyre99]

The open-only naysayers assume that us open play, PvP players all want easy ganks - but this isn't the case. We want to fix this glaring problem with Powerplays' competitiveness...

What we (open play advocates) are looking for (fair, transparent and competitive):

View attachment 409017

What we currently have and what the status quo advocates want to keep (too easy, exploitable, uncompetitive):

View attachment 409019

I don't know about you but if football or other sports played like the latter it would be pretty dull and get tedious pretty quickly...

I look forward to reading why this isn't a correct analogy (even though it 100% is).

First, you're getting a like for these neat diagrams

I'm not going to tell you why this isn't a correct analogy. Instead, this is what you'll actually see about 90% of the time, based on every single test I've done so far, inlcuding my most recent experiment: Running the blockade in Open at George Lucas while rares were still in play:

Seriously. Before I even knew about the blockade, I had made 11(?) runs and only faced the opposition once. Granted I got killed, but that was due to my lack of experience in leaving a station under fire. After I learned of the blockade, I managed another nine runs within 24 hours, and again I encountered opposition once, and escaped with my rares this time.

In all likelyhood, there isn't a massive population of PowerPlayers in Solo/PG, with hardly anyone in Open. The only people in Solo/PG are either players with zero interest in PvP, and a small group of players who would be playing in Open, but are doing it for a mostly hypothetical advantage. I don't care about the former group. They're not likely to have a huge influence, and they attract the usual suspects, who are simply not fun to play with. Dealing with the usual suspects isn't most people's definition of fun.

There are other players who are not fun to play with, and that includes the latter group. If they're willing to "cheat" to gain an advantage, they're also going to "cheat" (including actually cheating) to maintain that advantage if coerced into Open. That isn't most people's definition of fun either.

And when players aren't haveing fun, they'll quit playing. And if PowerPlay fails to attract a lot of players again, Frontier won't continue to develop the feature further.

 

[Wily Rites]

First, you're getting a like for these neat diagrams

I'm not going to tell you why this isn't a correct analogy. Instead, this is what you'll actually see about 90% of the time, based on every single test I've done so far, inlcuding my most recent experiment: Running the blockade in Open at George Lucas while rares were still in play:

View attachment 409044

Seriously. Before I even knew about the blockade, I had made 11(?) runs and only faced the opposition once. Granted I got killed, but that was due to my lack of experience in leaving a station under fire. After I learned of the blockade, I managed another nine runs within 24 hours, and again I encountered opposition once, and escaped with my rares this time.

In all likelyhood, there isn't a massive population of PowerPlayers in Solo/PG, with hardly anyone in Open. The only people in Solo/PG are either players with zero interest in PvP, and a small group of players who would be playing in Open, but are doing it for a mostly hypothetical advantage. I don't care about the former group. They're not likely to have a huge influence, and they attract the usual suspects, who are simply not fun to play with. Dealing with the usual suspects isn't most people's definition of fun.

There are other players who are not fun to play with, and that includes the latter group. If they're willing to "cheat" to gain an advantage, they're also going to "cheat" (including actually cheating) to maintain that advantage if coerced into Open. That isn't most people's definition of fun either.

And when players aren't haveing fun, they'll quit playing. And if PowerPlay fails to attract a lot of players again, Frontier won't continue to develop the feature further.

I had a similar experience leaving a station recently, I was a bit irritated by the system where you can't see your scanner before launching, and was baffled as to how someone could squat outside the station like that, fragging folk, without getting blasted by the station?

 

[Darkfyre99]

I had a similar experience leaving a station recently, I was a bit irritated by the system where you can't see your scanner before launching, and was baffled as to how someone could squat outside the station like that, fragging folk, without getting blasted by the station?

IF I'm understanding how C&P interacts with PowerPlay correctly, a PowerPlayer in friendly territory can attack the ship of a hostile Power (including other players) without it counting as a crime. I'm not much of a combat player by nature, so it's not like I've extensively tested this, but in my experiences so far, I can go on the offensive against NPCs in my own territory, or wait for hostile NPCs to attack me in hostile territory if I don't want to commit murder.

 

[Wily Rites]

IF I'm understanding how C&P interacts with PowerPlay correctly, a PowerPlayer in friendly territory can attack the ship of a hostile Power (including other players) without it counting as a crime. I'm not much of a combat player by nature, so it's not like I've extensively tested this, but in my experiences so far, I can go on the offensive against NPCs in my own territory, or wait for hostile NPCs to attack me in hostile territory if I don't want to commit murder.

Oh I should have mentioned, I was in a stronghold of my power, I didn't get to check out the specifics of the ship doing this, as the ship equipment is really not very good for achieving any really lucid understanding as to what is going on. I just wanted to get out and carry on with what I was doing, at that moment I was in a 700Mj shield exploration build, the shield did not last 2 seconds. Even with quite some experience under my belt, these attacks are completely lacking in any way for the one being attacked to understand what is happening, and how, so as to avoid it.

If I could have seen the scanner of the outside of the station before taking off, I would have taken off in a very different ship with a very different objective in mind!

 

[Vermin]

The football pitch thing is nonsense. Even in Open you'll be lucky to instance with two or three other players from either team.

So why worry about it being open only then?

 

[Riley Angel]

.... the game where every single player experiences and affects the mode shared galaxy and where each player can decide on a session-by-session basis how many, or few, players they wish to play among.

In that case then make it so solo/PG players can still affect the BGS, just make it so their progress is less impactful than of those who play in open. That way they're still can affect the galaxy, but to do actual BGS game they'd be encouraged to play in open, rather than grind away for hours on end in solo/PG.

Like JME replied before to my message: playing in open right now is a disadvantage. I completely agree with that.

 

[Doctor Dread]

In that case then make it so solo/PG players can still affect the BGS, just make it so their progress is less impactful than of those who play in open. That way they're still can affect the galaxy, but to do actual BGS game they'd be encouraged to play in open, rather than grind away for hours on end in solo/PG.

Like JME replied before to my message: playing in open right now is a disadvantage. I completely agree with that.

Quite the opposite, make Solo players more impactful because they do it solo, not in wings of experienced mates.

 

[Brrokk]

So why worry about it being open only then?

Because of the further degradation of instancing I've previously warned about.

 

[Vermin]

Because of the further degradation of instancing I've previously warned about.

Good excuse for them to tighten up the netcode then innit.

 

[Brrokk]

Good excuse for them to tighten up the netcode then innit.

That would also be good. FD don't have control or sight of people's internet connections though, so I doubt we'll ever see much improvement.

 

[Vermin]

That would also be good. FD don't have control or sight of people's internet connections though, so I doubt we'll ever see much improvement.

Thats not untrue yeah, however I feel like there are a lot of issues with adjudication servers actually not even trying to instance people at the current time.

Its all too common to re-instance and end up in an empty one at the moment, whereas in the past that was significantly less of a problem. Still happened of course, but not at the frequency it is currently.

 

[Darkfyre99]

Oh I should have mentioned, I was in a stronghold of my power, I didn't get to check out the specifics of the ship doing this, as the ship equipment is really not very good for achieving any really lucid understanding as to what is going on. I just wanted to get out and carry on with what I was doing, at that moment I was in a 700Mj shield exploration build, the shield did not last 2 seconds. Even with quite some experience under my belt, these attacks are completely lacking in any way for the one being attacked to understand what is happening, and how, so as to avoid it.

If I could have seen the scanner of the outside of the station before taking off, I would have taken off in a very different ship with a very different objective in mind!

If that’s the case, then it was likely a station camper exploiting the blind spots of a station’s defenses.

 

[Darkfyre99]

So why worry about it being open only then?

Because the experience in Open can be very hit or miss, especially if you get an laggy connection or an instance host who’s machine can’t handle that many entities at once. It’s annoying enough when it happens by accident, but the type of player who’s in Solo/PG for an ephemeral edge is also the type of player to weaponize this to maintain that advantage.

 

[Felix DiCestria]

Module shopping...

Rares trading...

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I do not feel like reading through ~200 pages of crying form both who are for and against open-only PP, and I don't know if anyone else suggested what I'm about to, but here is the thing:

Those who play in solo and PGs can still be eligible for global rewards when ranking up (modules unlocking, mini-care packages, etc), but their efforts should not be counted towards actual system undermining/reinforcing progression. That way solo players can have fun gameplay AND have all the rewards, and open players can have a fair chance to fight back against undermining, since all the progress will be done through open. I feel like this way everyone will be happy. I get the impression that most solo/PG players are here just to have fun. So what's the difference if you're having fun while not ruining other's people hard BGS work?

This mechanic should also be a part of general BGS system, not just PP. It's so incredibly frustrating when some player faction basically declares war on you, and then you have to fix all the BGS mess that they've made while not being able to fight back because they're in solo or PG. It just becomes the tug of war game, which is not fun for neither attackers nor defenders.

You can fight back if they are in PG/solo, by working the BGS.

If they were in open, you might, on occasion, see them, but at best you can sometimes get a kill and stop them doing their stuff, but while you're trying to find someone opposing you you're not working the BGS, so you're still going to lose the BGS war if that is your strategy.

Now, you could fly a combat ship and do missions at the same time to work the BGS, which might help you more, but if you're RES hunting for bounties or visiting specific places, then you're not on the hunt for other players, and if its an election, where non-combat activities matter, then flying a combat build is silly, you need to be in a trade ship or similar to work that BGS.

In short, thinking PvP is the solution to your BGS woes is silly and uninformed.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

The open-only naysayers assume that us open play, PvP players all want easy ganks - but this isn't the case. We want to fix this glaring problem with Powerplays' competitiveness...

What we (open play advocates) are looking for (fair, transparent and competitive):

View attachment 409017

What we currently have and what the status quo advocates want to keep (too easy, exploitable, uncompetitive):

View attachment 409019

I don't know about you but if football or other sports played like the latter it would be pretty dull and get tedious pretty quickly...

I look forward to reading why this isn't a correct analogy (even though it 100% is).

The problem with your analogy is that the people who are fine with modes are having an enjoyable time of it.

Open only flips it, making it less enjoyable for one side, while potentially making it more enjoyable for the other.

In short, you don't really solve anything for everyone, just change who is happy.