Open-Only in PP2.0?

Poor analogy since you're effectively using a PvP type scenario to say why PvE doesn't work. It doesn't make sense.

Person A (the attacker) is trying to make one effect happen (eg: boost INF of Faction A). Person B (the defender) is trying to counter that effect (reduce INF of Faction A, or boost INF of Faction B).

If B can do enough to stop or even outpace person A's efforts, then they are winning. You've fought back.

We've had this a number of times in our system and with our faction. We had groups trying to take over. And we eventually always won by out BGSing them. Doesn't matter really if we know who they are or not. Even if we know who they are and their home system, any actions we take to attack their system/faction would reduce the efforts we apply defending our own system, potentially winning a battle elsewhere (or not) but losing in our own.

Now, if you like, let's look at the Open Only experience, where PvP becomes an option, and its getting boring repeating myself, but people seem to love ignoring it.

You may know who your opponent is because sometimes, maybe, you get to see them, although maybe you had suspicions anyway because it was a player faction being boosted. Or maybe you don't know, because you have no idea who is actually doing stuff. Maybe you don't even see who is doing the stuff. But let's assume you do.

Well, in the context of PP you know who your opponents are anyway, its all other powers. In terms of the BGS, then maybe they have a faction that you could hit at... or maybe they are a group of players without a player faction, they've just decided to have some fun with your faction.

Anyway, back to the PvP possibility.

Story time!

I want to give them a bloody nose, right? How dare they push the influence of another faction/power! This shall not stand!

So I spend my time hunting for their ships. Minutes pass. Nope, nobody. More minutes pass... oh, a blip! Ah, no, not one of ones i need to attack, just a random commander, not even power aligned. Can't go attacking them anyway, someone might slip past while i'm doing that. Hmmm... are they even online at the moment? Or maybe they are in a different instance.... or maybe they've seen me before and blocked me. Damn. Ah, now i see one. They are mine! I'm going to boil them up! So I go after them, interdict! Got them!

Open fire!

Cutter goes boost boost wake.

Damn. Ok, i'll get them next time.

Several hours later, I got some kills. I feel happy about this.

Next day, BGS tick.

Result: my faction's influence (or Power) has dropped like a rock.

What?! How can that be?

Because the people doing PvE were scoring tons of INF every run i failed to stop, ever run I didn't see due to timezones or instancing or blocking or when I was busy interdicting someone else!

Ok, so what about wars? Wars are good! Direct PvP is designed for these with combat zones! Let's get it on! Powerplay has combat zones as well!

Now what though? Where are they? Do i go hunting in every CZ in the system or do i pick one and clear it. I still need to win more CZs than the opposing side. Doesn't matter how many opposing players I kill, that just slows them down. I've got to get CZ wins as well.

I've learned my lesson now. I can't put PvP ahead of the PvE, that's a losing strategy. That will lead to losing the war. So I go into a CZ with the hope of seeing one of those dastardly opposing players. If I do, i'll show them who is boss!

So, i'm in the zone, blasting away, going good and then...

Rebuy screen! Killed by CMDR Opposing Player.

Damn, lost a few bonds, need to get back into the action now.


Yes, I ended it with (me) the PvP player getting killed, because one thing that always seems to seep through in these open only discussions is a somewhat veiled assumption that if open only happens, it will be the proponents believing it will be them that get the kills. Its always worth keeping in mind in combat scenarios, with people knowing PvP can happen, that things might not always go your way. Maybe even most of the time it will be you dying, not killing.
Nice illustration. If you fly a combat meta ship, you lose at BGS. The thing is, I think everyone knows this really. And that means that the people arguing for Open-only BGS or PP don't really care about BGS or PP. They just want their over-fished pond restocked.

For the same reason, the idea of an Open-only region won't take off. It's not what they want.

The pond is never going to be restocked. Not by BGS, PP or any other changes.

(Edited to reduce ranting).
 
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It really stinks to see a system you have been working on suddenly start getting assaulted by an enemy power and you go there to see if you can stop them and there is not a soul in sight. If someone is attacking my powers stronghold carrier I should be able to respond by fighting to defend it from them. Instead my battle is against untouchable ghosts and it does not feel like I am competing against actual human beings but instead just a number.
 
It really stinks to see a system you have been working on suddenly start getting assaulted by an enemy power and you go there to see if you can stop them and there is not a soul in sight. If someone is attacking my powers stronghold carrier I should be able to respond by fighting to defend it from them. Instead my battle is against untouchable ghosts and it does not feel like I am competing against actual human beings but instead just a number.
That's the thing, the Conflict Zones may not work in Open, or even Private Group.

I wish to shoot at Enemy Players alongside Friendly players, too, but if the zones don't work at all...
 
Here's the thing. If I log onto Open in my trade ship, I'm instantly recognizable despite the presence of dozens of NPC ships around because my radar symbol is a hollow triangle. Make it so it's not so you'll have to hunt and scan me to reveal my true essence as a human player. That way trade ships have a chance of surviving in the Open without compromising their design to take on armor & shielding found only in combat ships.

You think you're the cat's meow in PVP? Prove it, find me.
 
im just effectively saying that unless you can hit back, you arent fighting back, without any connection to any mode, style, preference, opinion, or else. no strings attached.
i remember someone saying that semantics, as the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning, is rather important in communication...

And i'm saying, if you don't push back, you're going to lose, regardless of how you term it.

Your choice. Push back or sit there complaining how you can't PvP against someone when the most effective way of denying them what they want is available to you.
 
It really stinks to see a system you have been working on suddenly start getting assaulted by an enemy power and you go there to see if you can stop them and there is not a soul in sight. If someone is attacking my powers stronghold carrier I should be able to respond by fighting to defend it from them. Instead my battle is against untouchable ghosts and it does not feel like I am competing against actual human beings but instead just a number.

That is effectively what PP and the BGS are. Moving numbers. Its largely driven by PvE activites. All PvP brings to the table is you might, on occasion, be able to temporarily slow an opponent down at the cost of your own time and effort in moving those numbers, or worse, you attack them and die, losing some effort yourself.

Also, as someone who extensively uses SLFs in combat zones, if you bumped into me in a CZ, welcome to lag city. I know we shouldn't use bugs as a reason for gameplay design, but that's just the current reality and the reality for many years. Very hard to PvP (or PvE) when ships are not where you think they are.

In a wing, PvEing, everyone can agree to not use SLFs. Can't get that agreement in PvP.
 
Why hasn't this thread been locked already?

PP2.0 is out, it's in all modes. It's time to move on.

It could perhaps be merged into Hotel California, but probably the dream is being kept alive by FD saying "not at launch" regarding Open Only for PP.

Some people take this as hope that FD might change things, as opposed to it simply being regular FD speak of "not happening, but we don't want to say that"

Kind of like ship interiors not being planned for launch or a myriad of other things.

To be honest, i'd rather FD were stronger with their statements and and decisions. Either come out and say "No, its never happening" or "Yes, we will make this happen".

Its the sitting on the fence that keeps discussions like this going.
 
If that’s the case, then it was likely a station camper exploiting the blind spots of a station’s defenses.
Ah; Now this sounds promising, a way towards understating at least! So there are spots outside the station near the exit, this happened literally out side the mail slot, where they can sit and I presume fire off pacifier rounds in rapid succession on unsuspecting vessels leaving the station?

I think I get the picture; How sporting of them!
 
Why are we losing time and wasting space about BGS and game-modes?

^^here we are discussing about open-play related to power play.

Just sayin'

To be fair, its easier to conflate now since a lot of BGS stuff also affects PP2 and as we've seen from other threads, PP2 is affecting peoples' BGS due to the large shipping of goods and bounties and whatnot.
 
if i hit you and you put a bandaid on the booboo and it heals, you didnt fight back. to fight back you would have to hit me back.
Now if I tell your Mama just how naughty you've been, you know full well how this is going to end up; Reality will dawn upon you and you and I will not need to lift a finger; Physical fighting is for the grunts, where the real fight happens is in the creation of warriors by sorcerer and warlocks, some tend towards white others black, it's all a matter night and day really; A very dark wheel.

Somewhere down the line, this phenomenon did give rise to law, is why liberty and justice are often depicted as balance, held by a woman; Virginis becomes libra, and then the final curtain, an age old tail, however: The curtain never falls due to the violence of man, that is simply all that remains when the veil is gone.

You remove the veil by undermining civility, with somewhat more tact, propaganda, medical supplies weapons shipments spyware; All of those things. The grunts fighting it out on the front line are little but the scab on the wound is all, they are not the actual point of focus of war efforts, they are symptomatic of it.

We would do well to ponder the origins of a SOB, if we want to understand the power that creates and wins wars, or that negates them entirely; Again, fighting is for the grunts, and the monkeys.

That said, it would be foolish to ignore one's inner monkey!
 
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It really stinks to see a system you have been working on suddenly start getting assaulted by an enemy power and you go there to see if you can stop them and there is not a soul in sight. If someone is attacking my powers stronghold carrier I should be able to respond by fighting to defend it from them. Instead my battle is against untouchable ghosts and it does not feel like I am competing against actual human beings but instead just a number.

I’m sure it does… but what makes you think that they’re in Solo/PG, as opposed to in Open but another instance, playing at a different time, or on a different version thanks to baseline ED being rated PEGI-7 for some strange reason? During my little experiment running the blockade at George Lucas, I only saw the opposition 10% of the time, and the one time I was killed, I respawned in a new instance.

It's far more likely that what you're getting in Open at a busy system looks like this:

(wishing I had the time to make a nifty soccor diagram)
(F)riendly PowerPlayer, (E)nemy PowerPlayer, (N)eutral Player

(F) vs (E) (N) (N) (N)(E) (N) (N) (N)(F) (N) (N)(E) (E) (N)(N) (N) (N)
(F) (F) (N) (N)(F)(E) (F)(E)
(N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N)(N)(N)

While what you're seeing in Solo may be:

(N)(N)(N)(N)(N)(F)(E)

And Private Groups may look like this:

(F) (F)(N) (N) (N) (N)(E) (E)

Frontier doesn't host instances, players do, and this game's netcode is designed with cooperative, not advesarial, gameplay in mind. As a result, Open isn't one huge instance, but many different instances designed to give players a good PvE cooperative experience, even if it means putting players in a private instance, because there's nobody local who can host an instance. In order to get something this...

(F) (F) (F) (F) vs (E) (E) (E) (E) plus (N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N) (N)

...requires either active cooperation on the part of everyone involved (adding each other to friends lists, joining the same VPN, premium equipment especially on the part instance host, and changing firewall and router settings), or a complete rework of the netcode on Frontier's part. I don't see either scenario happening, especially the latter, given how expensive hosting instances would be.

Even more important is that while what I illustrated above may represent a single busy system, most of those players above may not be in the same location within the system, but Supercruise, the various stations, settlements, and planetary ports, combat zones, resource zones, USSs, POIs, or even a random location in a ring or on a world.

There is very little guarantee that those in Solo/PG will actually instance with any particular Open Instance should PowerPlay go Open Only, and anyone who's in Solo/PG to gain a mostly acadamic advantage will probably do the opposite of cooperation to ensure they get a private Open instance, and that will result in longer transition periods. There's nothing worse than getting an instance host who's playing on a potato with dialup connection, an that's when it happens accidentially. Players doing it deliberately just makes things worse.
 
Newbies can farm their merits/progression in absolute safety modes, not affecting the Galaxy... with engineers' unlocks, and some experience, risks in open are much more manageable (if one wishes to affect the Galaxy) otherwise can continue to enjoy all aspects of the game without affecting it, without any limitation. (y)

Seems pretty much straightforward to me. :cool:
It is, but I have no idea about how many are never playing in open compared to those who play open only, and what that means in gaming hours. I can just presume that they are much more, so that this special interest group is taken care of.
 
To be fair, its easier to conflate now since a lot of BGS stuff also affects PP2 and as we've seen from other threads, PP2 is affecting peoples' BGS due to the large shipping of goods and bounties and whatnot.
Hmmmmm oksh but the framework has radically changed in PP 2.0, what's strictly BGS activity for PPers doesn't matter anymore as it has not much relevance (states for rares? ok but... meh that's not like going here/there having to flip systems, attack other PMFs etc). If BGSers with a PMFs are also doing powerplay activities, then that's powerplay (and being BGSers with a PMF is incidental), saying that from a PPer perspective ofc.
 
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