Colonisation Answers

[Coolgroove]

Well... passenger missions are linked to BGS factions, so the numer of passengers you take can add to the BGS population. New missions for 'we need (agg/tech/extraction/etc) expert in the colony, take them and their family... also need cargo space for their stuff' but maybe that's factored in to passenger berths.

I don't know how BGS expands into new systems by default, so shrug

The only thing that is known right now is that once system is colonized - standard rules of BGS applied. How exactly system is populated with more MFs than just the one player bought a beacon from is unknown. In current BGS rules there is a limit on a distance to which MFs can expand, don't know how long it is, but probably not even a 100 Ly.

Also, in current BGS rules - nothing apart from Thargoids can change system population. Obviously this part will be changed, as colonized systems need to grow somehow. For initial colonists and construction crews - it is probably safe to assume that distance to where the colonization ship would take them won't be any problem.

For the regular population - well, I doubt that there would be much desire to go somewhere where there is little to no infrastructure and basic comforts of life. Even to escape Thargoids, because living in a very remote systems is not really much safer, especially if it is closer to Thargoids territory, and in addition - in case of trouble chances to relocate somewhere safer are a lot smaller than in a vicinity of the Bubble.

Passenger missions could influence population, if even by relatively small numbers, it makes sense, and shouldn't be hard to implement. But that would probably work both ways - passengers in +population, passengers out -population. Architect would most likely only add, but it could be fun to steal population from somebody and basically shut down their system.

In any way - things like that are extra mechanics, and they would need to be interconnected with other mechanics, or at least account for their possible effects. With how complex Colonisation already is, I doubt that such intricate details and mechanics would be developed in current iteration.

 

[Sunsbane]

A minor faction will enter into the expansion state once it reaches 75% influence in a star system. A 20 (iirc) ly cube is used to determine the target system, it being a cube this sometimes result in an expansion range being closer to 30 ly at the edges. The factions influence in the system it's expanding from will automatically slowly fall down while the expansion takes place.

A BGS expansion requires that: 1. An inhabited systems exists within range. 2. That it has less than 7 minor factions already present.
Should an expansion fail due to these conditions not being met, the minor faction will go into the investment state and the next expansion attempt from that system will have a slightly higher range.

 

[Felix DiCestria]

Somehow this springs to mind...

 

[Coolgroove]

and the next expansion attempt from that system will have a slightly higher range.

Is that a one time increase, or it can be done multiple times to have longer and longer reach?

 

[Sunsbane]

Is that a one time increase, or it can be done multiple times to have longer and longer reach?

It resets to the standard range every time.

 

[Coolgroove]

A minor faction will enter into the expansion state once it reaches 75% influence in a star system. A 20 (iirc) ly cube is used to determine the target system, it being a cube this sometimes result in an expansion range being closer to 30 ly at the edges. The factions influence in the system it's expanding from will automatically slowly fall down while the expansion takes place.

A BGS expansion requires that: 1. An inhabited systems exists within range. 2. That it has less than 7 minor factions already present.
Should an expansion fail due to these conditions not being met, the minor faction will go into the investment state and the next expansion attempt from that system will have a slightly higher range.

Thank you! That was very illuminating.

 

[Ameeleean2]

I've put some effort into reading this topic and have some thoughts about it too.

1st
10 ly is a bit low imho- if colonization limit is related to powerplay why not make Fleet Carriers work as a means to extend that limit. Why not add special fleet carrier service (the same as shipyard, bartender etc), that would enable carrier to serve as power center in it's immediate space and offer the same services as power contact on station belonging to that power. In this way powerplay could be extended to any system within Fleet Carrier range. One of requirements to get access to such module could be getting high enough rank in power.

2nd
An option to construct something bigger than regular station, an artificial structure capable of holding one or more settlements inside of it (for example big spinning cylinder). This would allow creation of artificial structures in system with no planets therefore making those as valid claim option too.

3rd
Option to colonize asteroid (by for example mining it's interiors) or to create underground area for settlement. We have bases using this method in game already and ships are already capable of using mining equipment.

4th
Option to use fleet carrier to deliver supplies- and I do not mean manually fetching stuff from station to carrier, then ordering carrier to jump to system with claim and fetching the same stuff once more to colonization ship. Can we please get an option to establish link between fleet carrier and station/settlement in the same system and exchange goods with delivery service from fleet carrier management menu? Distance between Fleet Carrier and station along with available landing pad size can be used to determine frequency and amount of each delivery.

Right now I'm most curious about costs, material requirements and maximum distance from bubble center (whatever that is) just to see if I will be able to do it by myself.

 

[SergMx]

Watched the movie Romulus a couple of months ago. I don't remember the numbers exactly.
The colony is 65 years from the sun. 2700 settlers.
The nearest system they wanted to escape to was 9 light years away, but they needed cryo-capsules ...

By the way, I'm just now thinking, in the movie, the colonies were separate planets, not systems. In Elite 1 we only had systems, so in the other Elites we operate on systems too.

 

[TOPAZ-63]

It resets to the standard range every time.

If I'm not mistaken, there is one significant caveat. Yes, at the second stage, the area of expansion expands by 2 times, BUT if a suitable system is not found, then a small fraction will NEVER be able to expand from this system again.
PS: The probability is low, but could it happen that this system, from which the faction cannot expand under the terms of the BGS, will be the only system from which colonization needs to continue further?

 

[DaveB]

IMHO, 10ly is too short. HOWEVER, a relatively short limit makes sense in that a new colony will need a "lifeline" back to "civilisation" to survive. There will have to be mechanics around having the economies you depend on "within reach" to establish a new population centre.

And, above all else there has to be a way for a colony to fail after the initial build-out. And if it does, there have to be knock-on consequences for other colonies that depended on it. You build a string of colonies 10 hops long, what happens to the population of the ones on the far end when the single agricultural colony in the middle of the chain goes belly-up? Can they then sustain their populations and economies or do they have to find a place for a new agricultural economy nearer to them pretty damn quick?

And what happens to a failed colony? Well, this is Elite: Dangerous after all... The scavengers move in. The place gets looted blind. Of course everything one "finds" there is "stolen goods" but maybe there's a possibility for official "salvage missions" where you have to recover stuff from an abandoned colony and turn it in for a reward higher than you'd get fencing the stuff on the black market. Of course the other scavengers picking over the corpse might object a wee bit...

What's left behind slowly deteriorates, BGS tick after BGS tick, until months (or even years) after the colony is abandoned there's no trace of it and the system is empty again. If somebody else decides to re-establish the colony, maybe the sooner they do it after the original colony failed, the more stuff is left to salvage and the more of a leg up on the resources they need to establish the new colony they get...

 

[Ian Doncaster]

A minor faction will enter into the expansion state once it reaches 75% influence in a star system. A 20 (iirc) ly cube is used to determine the target system, it being a cube this sometimes result in an expansion range being closer to 30 ly at the edges. The factions influence in the system it's expanding from will automatically slowly fall down while the expansion takes place.

A BGS expansion requires that: 1. An inhabited systems exists within range. 2. That it has less than 7 minor factions already present.
Should an expansion fail due to these conditions not being met, the minor faction will go into the investment state and the next expansion attempt from that system will have a slightly higher range.

Sorry, this is largely out-of-date. (It is a reasonable summary of how it was thought to work in early 2017, but a lot has changed since then both in terms of what actually happens and what people think happens)

- expansion starts at 75% influence as before
- influence does not fall any more during the expansion (though maintaining a high influence is tricky in some systems so it might drop off anyway due to passing traffic): instead, there is a 15% "expansion tax" paid all at once at the end of the expansion, and only if the expansion succeeds
- it is a 20 LY cube as before
- expansions preferentially target systems with fewer than 7 minor factions, and preferentially target systems the expanding faction hasn't previously retreated from, closest first.
- expansions can also target systems with exactly 7 minor factions present, if there are none with fewer than 7 in range: this starts an invasion war with an already-present non-native faction, and the loser of the war immediately retreats to keep the system at 7 factions. This isn't closest first (it used to be) - it's now "weakest target first".
- if there aren't any targets even using invasions, the expansion fails and the next expansion by that faction will be longer range [1] (a 30 LY cube) but this does not start the Investment state - since the 3.3 release this has just been the next higher economic state after Boom and unrelated to Expansion at all
- if an extended-range expansion fails (highly unlikely but possible in the bubble; easy-to-automatic in sparsely-populated space outside), the system is permanently barred for all future expansions, even by other factions


[1] Side note here: the next expansion gets the longer range even if it comes from a different source system - and it gets used up even if it wasn't needed because there turned out to be a suitable target in the normal cube.

And, above all else there has to be a way for a colony to fail after the initial build-out.

Frontier seemed very definite that this would not be the case. Understandable, but I agree that it's the less interesting way to do it.

 

[DaveB]

Frontier seemed very definite that this would not be the case. Understandable, but I agree that it's the less interesting way to do it.

Indeed, and I, like you, think they are missing an opportunity here. However, I do bear in mind that FD have quite the track record of at least trying to incrementally build in further depth and gameplay to an existing - somewhat basic - framework that they previously put in place. Sometimes they succeed, other times not so much, still others there are intended features that "just don't make it" and end up dropped, like proper VR-legs.

But there are VERY few things that FD have come flat out and said "never going to happen"

 

[KKomrade Sylas]

A minor faction will enter into the expansion state once it reaches 75% influence in a star system. A 20 (iirc) ly cube is used to determine the target system, it being a cube this sometimes result in an expansion range being closer to 30 ly at the edges. The factions influence in the system it's expanding from will automatically slowly fall down while the expansion takes place.

A BGS expansion requires that: 1. An inhabited systems exists within range. 2. That it has less than 7 minor factions already present.
Should an expansion fail due to these conditions not being met, the minor faction will go into the investment state and the next expansion attempt from that system will have a slightly higher range.

Ian already explained it pretty perfectly but it's still funny to this day just how much harm outdated BGS guides do to people who look them up to learn about them. Some of this stuff is like 7-8 years outdated lol. When someone looks up the Remlok guide for example I think it qualifies as weaponized misinformation at this point

 

[Alien]

I keep trying to come up with an alternative to 10LY that will still fit with what Frontier want for the game. The best idea I have so far is something along the lines of different priced claim beacons, so that a 10LY beacon is the cheapest, and then you could buy (for example) a 20LY one and a 50LY one and a 100LY one, but they get multiples of expense the longer the range of beacon you want to buy. This could be justified lore-wise as the further out you want to claim, the more bribes the faction have to make which also get more and more expensive.

Another idea is that the range could be dynamic based on how dense the number of systems are within 10LY of the system you're buying the beacon at. So lots of claimable systems nearby would mean a 10LY beacon. This would be more likely the closer to Sag A* you get and if there's fewer systems available to claim (because in the bubble there'd be few, if any) then the range is further up to a maximum of (for example) 100LY.

 

[Coolgroove]

Long range Colonisation:

Current 10+ Ly Colonization is done by deploying Colonisation Ship. What if the option to do a long range Colonisation would require a Colonisation Mega-Ship.

Beacon for this Mega-Ship would cost more, probably would require extra Commodities to be delivered to this Mega-Ship before it can depart. This Mega-Ship would not disappear after deployment, and going to continue cruising between closest inhabited systems and it's colony. Range could be 500 Ly for example.

Type of such a Mega-Ship could determine what resources system would have enough. For example, if it is a Agricultural Mega-ship - system would have enough food, etc. There would also be a constant flow of population brought by this Mega-Ship as it cruises between systems.

Obviously - one can link several long-range colonies into a chain. Commodities and whatever required for construction of settlements and stations stay the same as they are in regular Colonisation around bubble. BGS rules and systems won't need changes, and would work the same, with an exception (probably) of having only one MF (who player bought beacon from) until there are more MFs in a 20-30 Ly radius of that colony.

From a game-play and world perspective - everything would make sense. For Development - probably the easiest option, as it would require only one (this Mega-Ship) extra mechanic (well, and models for these Mega-Ships, if not to re-use default). For players - yey! can do it farther.

 

[Sunsbane]

Sorry, this is largely out-of-date. (It is a reasonable summary of how it was thought to work in early 2017, but a lot has changed since then both in terms of what actually happens and what people think happens)

- expansion starts at 75% influence as before
- influence does not fall any more during the expansion (though maintaining a high influence is tricky in some systems so it might drop off anyway due to passing traffic): instead, there is a 15% "expansion tax" paid all at once at the end of the expansion, and only if the expansion succeeds
- it is a 20 LY cube as before
- expansions preferentially target systems with fewer than 7 minor factions, and preferentially target systems the expanding faction hasn't previously retreated from, closest first.
- expansions can also target systems with exactly 7 minor factions present, if there are none with fewer than 7 in range: this starts an invasion war with an already-present non-native faction, and the loser of the war immediately retreats to keep the system at 7 factions. This isn't closest first (it used to be) - it's now "weakest target first".
- if there aren't any targets even using invasions, the expansion fails and the next expansion by that faction will be longer range [1] (a 30 LY cube) but this does not start the Investment state - since the 3.3 release this has just been the next higher economic state after Boom and unrelated to Expansion at all
- if an extended-range expansion fails (highly unlikely but possible in the bubble; easy-to-automatic in sparsely-populated space outside), the system is permanently barred for all future expansions, even by other factions


[1] Side note here: the next expansion gets the longer range even if it comes from a different source system - and it gets used up even if it wasn't needed because there turned out to be a suitable target in the normal cube.

It has been a year since I've participated in an expansion so I did quickly look it up (and it was outdated), I didn't go into other intricacies such as invasions and so on because my main point - one I unfortunately neglected to state explicitly is that BGS expansion range is at most about about 35- ly. So if the design intent behind colonization is that BGS expansion into the new systems has to be possible, that is likely to be the farthest range the devs could increase it to.

 

[CMDR Kraag]

All colonization will amount to is a naked attempt on FDev's part to leverage their player base to flesh out their near-empty galaxy so they don't have to go through the time, effort, and expense of developing a new DLC to accomplish the same in a more compelling and engaging manner.

At the end of grinding away on FDev's latest hamster wheel what are you left with? Another generic, cookie-cutter, NPC-populated system like the 20,000 that preceded it in the Bubble that confers no personalization and no benefit to the System Architect beyond being able to say, "I built that!" (which nobody but the System Architect will care about). WOW! So much engagement! So much emergent gameplay! How compelling! /s

We're being lured into becoming nothing more than Colonization Contractors working on behalf of FDev to make their mile-wide, inch-deep pond two inches deep. And after jumping through that hoop - YOINK! - they pull the rug out from under you by adding the system to the ever-growing stable of NPC systems ad nauseam with nothing to show for it at a personal level other than specious "bragging rights".

Haters are going to dog-pile this comment with downvotes, but mark my words: when all is said and done you're going to be staring at these new colonies, scratching your head, and exclaiming, "That's it? That's all my time and effort achieved was just another dull NPC system that does nothing for me?!?!"

Don't pi-$$ down my leg and tell me it's raining, FDev.

 

[Nowski]

Haters are going to dog-pile this comment with downvotes,

Wait, there are downvotes?!

 

[Neilski]

Wait, there are downvotes?!

No

 

[pmejna]

I

All colonization will amount to is a naked attempt on FDev's part to leverage their player base to flesh out their near-empty galaxy so they don't have to go through the time, effort, and expense of developing a new DLC to accomplish the same in a more compelling and engaging manner.

At the end of grinding away on FDev's latest hamster wheel what are you left with? Another generic, cookie-cutter, NPC-populated system like the 20,000 that preceded it in the Bubble that confers no personalization and no benefit to the System Architect beyond being able to say, "I built that!" (which nobody but the System Architect will care about). WOW! So much engagement! So much emergent gameplay! How compelling! /s

We're being lured into becoming nothing more than Colonization Contractors working on behalf of FDev to make their mile-wide, inch-deep pond two inches deep. And after jumping through that hoop - YOINK! - they pull the rug out from under you by adding the system to the ever-growing stable of NPC systems ad nauseam with nothing to show for it at a personal level other than specious "bragging rights".

Haters are going to dog-pile this comment with downvotes, but mark my words: when all is said and done you're going to be staring at these new colonies, scratching your head, and exclaiming, "That's it? That's all my time and effort achieved was just another dull NPC system that does nothing for me?!?!"

Don't pi-$$ down my leg and tell me it's raining, FDev.

think you can't downvote anyway XD
To be fair I see your point. We should get the new buildings, missions and something extra on top of that like deep system customization.
I disagree with the statement that we will be doing a job for a FDevs - I will enjoy this feature even in this dull initial form they announced.
Although - they would need to polish this thing up and add something on top of it - otherwise it might be boring even to enthusiast like me.
o7