No Single Player Offline Mode then? [Part 2]

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http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/11/21/steam-early-access-rules/

Do not make specific promises about future events.
For example, there is no way you can know exactly when the game will be finished, that the game will be finished, or that planned future additions will definitely happen. Do not ask your customers to bet on the future of your game. Customers should be buying your game based on its current state, not on promises of a future that may or may not be realized.

Probably good for Kickstarter to adopt Valve's new policies. At least for games, anyway.
 
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No offline single player... who cares? I doubt anyone of you would play this game offline, alone in a static universe. It's like buying a car but complaining about the fuel you need.
You need internet for updating the game anyway so what's the problem?

Well, personally, I spend weeks at a time at sea on my ship for work, usually spending at least 6 to 8 months at sea any given year. Yeah, I can update every time I pull into port, but I can't login (via internet connection) and play for all that time I'm out at sea.

And sure, I may be only among a few backers with this specific problem, but others may have similar situations... And it doesn't address the fact that many people were promised and expecting the offline feature.
 
That is factually incorrect. They have made it very clear that every single transaction and every single mission won't function without the internet connection. So it's not just for updates, it's for everything. Without it you will only be able to fly around alone in space.

They are saying that now for Solo mode. That was not the original reasoning given for connectivity on offline mode. And besides, everyone keeps telling us Solo is not Offline.
 
Okay - still not in with the economics of this. If they planned that from the start, I could get it. I agree with you. It is like Microsoft giving office away for free on the iPad. You then buy a *subscription* and get full access.

That there is not DRM, it is a subscription or, put another way, it could be described as SAAS, seeing the client is not the software that you install, you only install the loader. The sign in is not to authenticate the software that is installed on the PC, but to access your subscription, download updates, etc. etc.

No, it is DRM. You can download a pirated version of the online client, you can run it, you can probably play the tutorials, but when it asks you to create your online account and you don't have an unused serial number or whatever to gain access to the ED servers, that's as far as you are going. And you won't have one of those unless you have paid for a legal copy of the game. So, it's de-facto DRM. No code, no game. No pay, no code. Therefore, no pay, no game.
 
Here's one.

There were plenty on the previous threadnaught, too, but most of them seem to have left for greener pastures, sadly. :(

Actually, all it takes is one to prove that it is so. Even one sale is an increase, but I'm sure the number is a heck of a lot higher than one. I think you are probably right though about people leaving for other places.
 
No, it is DRM. You can download a pirated version of the online client, you can run it, you can probably play the tutorials, but when it asks you to create your online account and you don't have an unused serial number or whatever to gain access to the ED servers, that's as far as you are going. And you won't have one of those unless you have paid for a legal copy of the game. So, it's de-facto DRM. No code, no game. No pay, no code. Therefore, no pay, no game.

There are no serial numbers. You set up an on-line account, pay for it, and log in. Subscription in all but name. No codes, no serial numbers.
 
Offline play is still listed as a gameplay option in the EULA, so maybe this is all a misunderstanding and they do plan to let people play while not connected to the internet.

ELITE: DANGEROUS EULA AND TERMS OF USE - link

8. In-Game Advertising

Where a Game incorporates dynamic advertising technology, the technology which serves the provision of dynamic in-game advertising is integrated within the Game. This means that if you do not want to receive dynamic advertising, you should only play the game when you are not connected to the Internet.
 
[moderator's note: the referenced conversation has now been deleted as off-topic, but I couldn't bring myself to delete the beautiful exchange in this post]

You thought that was rude? Well, I thought it was just the truth. Naturally it was never meant to apply to ALL OF MANKIND, just the generality.

Apology proffered without hesitation.

Accepted, kind sir. I would rep you, but I'm told I have to spread it around first.
 
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What really baffles me, is the seeming inability of some people to comprehend what it's all about. So in order to mitigate the emotions involved with the game itself, I will put it in a different context.

Let's say I wanted to make a cake. So I go out into the wild world and look for backers. At first I say I want to make a chocolate cake, but I'm falling a little short of my goals, so I decide to tell people I am going to also make a vanilla cake for those who like vanilla, and voila, I reach my funding goal.

As time goes by, I spend most of my time working on the chocolate cake because that was my original idea, but do spend at least some time on the vanilla. More time goes by and more and more effort is being put into the chocolate cake. Eventually I realize I will not be able to deliver the vanilla cake, and at the last minute, announce that I will not be able to fulfill this obligation to the people who backed the vanilla cake, and then turn around and say, "well I can't make a good vanilla cake, and besides, chocolate is better anyway."

How do you think the people who wanted the vanilla cake will feel about it? Then, to make matters worse, those who like chocolate better than vanilla, start harassing the vanilla people because they had the audacity to complain about not getting what they thought they were paying for.

It's a good analogy but it's missing some ingredients. For me it is just a preference thing. I like the chocolate cake but I remember those vanilla cakes you made all those years ago and I'd like to see what you can do with it in a modern kitchen.

I can't speak for everyone but I for one definitely increased my pledge at the promise of offline... cake.

I'm also not too happy about this funny secure cake tin it comes in and having to contact you every time I want a bite of cake. What if I can't reach you?

But you forgot to mention that your chocolate cake is so fancy it may contain nuts. There's people out there who just can't eat the chocolate cake. And now they don't have the vanilla cake either.
 
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Okay - still not in with the economics of this. If they planned that from the start, I could get it. I agree with you. It is like Microsoft giving office away for free on the iPad. You then buy a *subscription* and get full access.

That there is not DRM, it is a subscription or, put another way, it could be described as SAAS, seeing the client is not the software that you install, you only install the loader. The sign in is not to authenticate the software that is installed on the PC, but to access your subscription, download updates, etc. etc.

I should add that the model I _think_ they are going for is microtransactions selling bling to their launch & pre-launch acquired player base, and then getting those people to pony up for significant expansions to the original game. So there will be a planetary landing pack, and that will (I'm guessing) be a software patch, plus probably an in-game transaction where you pay real money for 'Atmospheric flight Equipment' for your existing ships or something (I can't see any other way that those who buy the expansion will be able to continue to play with those that don't). The potential flaw with that being that you are only selling this to existing players, and if there's no mechanism for replacing natural player wastage, then the potential customer base for micro transactions & future expansion packs will be continuously eroding until it is no longer big enough to support further development or, indeed, eventually, running the servers.
 


It's a good analogy but it's missing some ingredients. For me it is just a preference thing. I like the chocolate cake but I remember those vanilla cakes you made all those years ago and I'd like to see what you can do with it in a modern kitchen.

I can't speak for everyone but I for one definitely increased my pledge at the promise of offline... cake.

I'm also not too happy about this funny secure cake tin it comes in and having to contact you every time I want a bite of cake. What if I can't reach you?

But you forgot to mention that your chocolate cake is so fancy it may contain nuts. There's people out there who just can't eat the chocolate cake. And now they don't have the vanilla cake either.

LMAO. Well done sir, well done. I didn't want to get too verbose, so I kept it fairly simple, but I shall accept your added "ingredients," most willingly and gratefully. Thanks. :)
 
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It's a good analogy but it's missing some ingredients. For me it is just a preference thing. I like the chocolate cake but I remember those vanilla cakes you made all those years ago and I'd like to see what you can do with it in a modern kitchen.

I can't speak for everyone but I for one definitely increased my pledge at the promise of offline... cake.

I'm also not too happy about this funny secure cake tin it comes in and having to contact you every time I want a bite of cake. What if I can't reach you?

But you forgot to mention that your chocolate cake is so fancy it may contain nuts. There's people out there who just can't eat the chocolate cake. And now they don't have the vanilla cake either.

I really can't eat chocolate at all. It's the caffeine, it sends me up the wall.



I am sorry that the vanilla cake is not coming. When this first blew up, people were talking about suing and legal action and class suits. Hey, I'm happy to have some cake left after you finish throwing that box around, please?



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I should add that the model I _think_ they are going for is microtransactions selling bling to their launch & pre-launch acquired player base, and then getting those people to pony up for significant expansions to the original game. So there will be a planetary landing pack, and that will (I'm guessing) be a software patch, plus probably an in-game transaction where you pay real money for 'Atmospheric flight Equipment' for your existing ships or something (I can't see any other way that those who buy the expansion will be able to continue to play with those that don't). The potential flaw with that being that you are only selling this to existing players, and if there's no mechanism for replacing natural player wastage, then the potential customer base for micro transactions & future expansion packs will be continuously eroding until it is no longer big enough to support further development or, indeed, eventually, running the servers.

Quite correct. This is why Microsoft have ditched the boxed copy to go for subscription. The subscription is a fraction of the cost of the full boxed copy. This should have been, had they been reading the times rightly, the way to go. My guess is that the expansion pack will probably cost similar to buying the full game.
 
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Can I stick my hand up and point out that logging on to the server is a form of subscription? This method looks so much like any other subscription based software that's going around (Adobe CC, Microsoft Office365.) Whether or not in name this is in fact signing in to a subscription. Because I can go to any one of your PCs and if Elite Dangerous is installed, I can log on to it with my password and play my commander, right?

Microsoft has done with keys to unlock their software years ago. Hence Office 365 is DRM free - you can download it and install it anywhere, but you have to log in to use it properly. That's subscription, not DRM.

That is server-side DRM based on user accounts.

DRM stands for digital rights management. Does the program, at any stage, in the client's computer or in a different system, checks the user's credentials to determine if he can run the program and which features he can use? Then it has DRM, by its literal definition even.

BTW, not all DRM is bad. If your bank allows you to do your banking online you really, really, want them to restrict access to your account so only you can access it. What many have issues with is when DRM is used to control access to a product they legally bought.

Never really understood why people get so hung up on DRM, I can understand the arguments for offline (which in all fairness was something that I was interested in), but DRM, who cares? You've purchased the game, unless it somehow stops you playing the game what does it matter?

Interested in an explanation from someone against it, if there is a sensible one.

G

Different persons have different reasons.

Local DRM systems run on the consumer's computer. Which means they are basically unwanted extra software running on the consumer's computer, and some dislike that. Back when computers were less powerful some even resorted to cracks for their legally purchased games simply because the cracked game was marginally faster, since the DRM wasn't running.

DRM needs to prevent tampering in order to be effective. The anti-tampering mechanisms often rely on obfuscation and little documented features to prevent said tampering. This can be prone to bugs, causing anything from system instability to outright rendering the computer inoperable, and depending on how it was protected the DRM system might remain in the computer even after the game was uninstalled. I was personally hit by this more than once (which led to my current stance of, for offline games, only purchasing them if they either are DRM-free or if a good, reliable crack with no side-effects exist).

When the DRM system fails it tends to render the protected product unusable. I've been hit by this in the past too, particularly with GFWL. Which is part of why I'm very unlikely to purchase an XBox for this generation and perhaps the next one, I'm still not over the sheer harm Microsoft did to PC gaming by pushing that steaming... something onto publishers (not to mention that blasted thing managed to lose my saves of both Batman games that used it, and then prevented me from restoring my backup, sending dozens of hours down the drain).

From a philosophical point of view, DRM is basically telling the consumer that he is guilty until proven innocent. Some take offense at that.

DRM is often useless, at least for the kind of game where stopping piracy matters; cracked versions of popular games often appear on the same day the game launches. Worse, it often means the ones that use pirated games have a better experience than those using the official version.

Certain kinds of DRM rely on an online authorization from a third party, which means that the game will stop being usable when that third party goes out of business.

Also, the effects of piracy on sales, while not well understood, seem to be far less harmful than most publishers, studios, labels, and other companies that trade on copyright want us to believe. In fact, some studies suggest that piracy actually increases the revenue for smaller companies and less known authors, since for them the extra publicity more than makes up for any potential lost sale. The products that definitely lose sales are those that aren't very good, but have expensive marketing campaigns to prop up sales (which, incidentally, might be why big studios and similar companies try so hard to demonize piracy; it disproportionately harms them, putting them at a weaker market position).
 
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That is server-side DRM based on user accounts.

DRM stands for digital rights management. Does the program, at any stage, in the client's computer or in a different system, checks the user's credentials to determine if he can run the program and which features he can use? Then it has DRM, by its literal definition even.

BTW, not all DRM is bad. If your bank allows you to do your banking online you really, really, want them to restrict access to your account so only you can access it. What many have issues with is when DRM is used to control access to a product they legally bought.

<snip>

That's not DRM, that's authentication. You are not using your details to prove you have access to run specific software, you are using it to give you access to personal details contained within the banks system. No one calls a PIN number at a cashpoint DRM.
 
Everyone who backed the game because they offered offline play and would not have backed it otherwise, raise your hand.

Hand raised! pledge level up from standard digital download of the game to Founding Member of the Elite on the announcement of the single player offline! and that wasn't for the bling, it was to back FDEV to realise a mutual dream
 
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