Discussion What is the most efficient way to crowdsource the 3D system coordinates

[Athan]

I don't see much value in knowing the factions except for a tool that also tracked my reputation with each one (and therefore could have it's own data gathering for both factions and reputation). So I wouldn't bother with storing factions for TGC. Overall allegiance is worth doing though. And yes I guess these things could change over time, at least through FD scripted events.

You might if it's a major faction that you've peeved off. Or indeed the opposite of if it's a major faction you're popular with, so know you can get reduced repair and refuel costs.

 

[Snuble]

Ran into a permit wall. It works just like we hoped it would not when we discussed this earlier. It prevent you from jumping to the system. Red in list like insufficient fuel. I'm not liking that game design at all. It stops exploration. It stops using such systems as jumping spots. It would be perfectly fine if it prevented you from docking anywhere. Or made you a target for any system authority vessel that scanned you.

Ross 128. No idea how to get that permit, or what consequence that have. It just means that most likely huge parts of the populated galaxy is not available.

Checked a bit more, its a prison system. Rumored backdoor. Might be a mission to enter. Anyway, route planners need to take note and take system like this into account.

 

[wolverine2710]

I think if they are going to wipe after gamma they will be more likely to change the procedural generation (as it won't matter if they do) so I'd expect the situation to be the same as we have now: positions of systems from stellar catalogs are unlikely to change but everything else could change, including positions of procedurally generated systems ("...Sector..." systems) and the stations/economies for all systems that aren't hand crafted. That said, the procedural generation has changed for 3.9 (Styx stations have changed again) but the positions of the procedurally generated systems has not changed from 3.0. So IMHO if the positions of the stars we have does not change at the start of gamma then they are probably not going to change for release. If they do change at the start of gamma then I'd stick to locating star catalog systems. In either case economy/station data is likely to change for release.

Have you asked Michael about getting another list of reference systems for gamma? I don't think we need every populated system but a more spread out set of reference systems would be very useful. If he can't supply a large list would it be possible to get the coordinates of 10-20 systems that we nominate?

Was abroad for a week and had very little time. Basically MIA for a week. Back now.

I just sent Michael Brookes two PM's.

1. I asked for a partial list (spreadsheet) of coordinates for Gamma. A list similar to the one provided for SB2/Sb3. As in systems with an economy.
2. I asked if the stellar forge seed for Gamma 1.x.x and Release 1.0 is the same. As in whether or not the coordinates for the star systems will change. Referred to your post here as well.

 

[CMDRKNac]

So what to include in TGC and what not? What's your preferences?

Hi there, thanks for your effort developing those tools. My opinion as someone who is starting to develop a web app for trading and (in the future) tracking player info (like faction reputation) and stuff like 'activity' and events:

I don't know if this is an appropriate use of TGC but I was planning to queue through the API on a daily (maybe hourly? there are restraints on bandwidth or server power? what is an appropriate use of the API?) basis to update the data of each system that has been updated since last check (using date to query the db). I would keep a record on my own server db of past info and update the most current data through TGC.

So my short answer, for me personally, would be to keep as much data as possible, considering any resource constraints. While some data will change dynamically as the universe evolves, it does not mean it's not useful data for the kind of app I'm talking about (and I'm pretty sure a lot of the devs have in mind similar features, or if not at some point they will want to implement those).

Sure I could request the data from the users of the app, and indeed I will as certain input will be only per user basis (and would submit the data that can be submitted through the API). But if the point of TGC is to centralize data acquisition through crowdsourcing as much as possible and pool resources it makes sense to me to try keep as much data as possible even if apparently is not of much use, as long as there are no resource constraints (including developer time! so priorities must obviously be made). I can only see benefits to having a common source of, ie. commodities demand/supply at a give point in time (and devs can handle locally who gets to post data or not to keep it as a reliable source and save administrative work to TGC devs).

 

[wolverine2710]

Partial list for Gamma might not be possible.

I did send Michael Brookes a PM about a partial list with system names and 3D coordinates. As usual I got a very fast response.

My question:

Spoiler

Hello Mr Brookes,

Can you provide the coordinates crowd sourcing project with a partial list of star systems with their coordinates for Gamma, like you did in the past with SB2 and SB3? In the past that list contained all the systems with an economy. You mentioned somewhere that the SB3 list was part of a larger spreadsheet. If that full spreadsheet contains more useful information for the project or another project I would be very interested in that full spreadsheet.

Note: With SB3 you send the list in a PM to someone who didn't share that list. Would it be possible for you to sent me the spreadsheet in a PM directly or post it in the crowd source thread. That way it WILL get shared with the community.

Very much looking forward to the spreadsheet/list when Gamma hits us.

With kind regards,
Jan Bessels aka cmdr Wolverine

His response.

I don't have a convenient way of providing this - I'll see what I can do but I can't promise anything.

Michael

Fair enough, we can't expect more than that.

I think it might have something to do with the fact that in Gamma the pill will probably be much MUCH larger. If they want to catch errors in the Stellar Forge they probably have to. In the past they had a small(er) pill and for that they had generated a spreadsheet. They might have not done that this time, or it might be impractical. Or they would have to do some work for it. Given the fact that they are swamped with work for a 16th of December I can understand that. Just my speculation and 2 euro cent.

Finger crossed for the list....

 

[wolverine2710]

This morning I did send Michael Brookes a PM about the stellar forge (SF) for Gamma and Release 1.0.

My question:

Spoiler

Hello Mr Brookes,

You gave us a headstart/warning that the Stellar Force for Gamma would be different then with SB3, different seed. Hence the system coordinates for the PG systems could/will change - and also number of stations and their names.

Will this also be the case when going from Gamma 1.x.x to Release 1.0 OR will these remain the same? The project is about 3D coordinates for the star systems so if those do NOT change but the stations etc would, that would NOT be a problem. RedWizzard probably has stated it clear here.

When Gamma starts we want to seriously start crowd sourcing coordinates for star systems which are NOT in the partial list you hopefully can supply us - as in mapping systems without an economy. IF the SF changes again with release 1.0 of the 16th of December it would mean we will to wait till that date. Hopefully you can give us this information.

With kind regards,
Jan Bessels aka cmdr wolverine.

His response:

Some changes are possible between gamma and release which is one of the reasons for a likely wipe on release. We're not planning a complete export, but it depends on what comes up.

Thanks

Michael

 

[TornSoul]

I don't know if this is an appropriate use of TGC but I was planning to queue through the API on a daily (maybe hourly? there are restraints on bandwidth or server power? what is an appropriate use of the API?) basis to update the data of each system that has been updated since last check (using date to query the db). I would keep a record on my own server db of past info and update the most current data through TGC.

As long as you only request "changes since last" (via the date filter) I don't foresee any (server/bandwidth) problems with requesting updates quite frequently (relative to what you mentioned).

Once an hour ought to be plenty sufficient for most apps (I don't expect the data to change that frequently) - But server wise, even once (or more) a minute shouldn't be a problem.
It's hard to predict about the future though - It all depends on just how many apps will be requesting data.

So set your updates to whatever makes sense for your app, with the one minute mark as a "soft ceiling".

I'm keeping an eye on the server log, and will contact app developers who seem to hit the API unnecessarily often (which I've already done in a single case - which was quickly resolved)

 

[RedWizzard]

You might if it's a major faction that you've peeved off. Or indeed the opposite of if it's a major faction you're popular with, so know you can get reduced repair and refuel costs.

That's what I meant when I said overall allegiance was worth having.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Ran into a permit wall. It works just like we hoped it would not when we discussed this earlier. It prevent you from jumping to the system. Red in list like insufficient fuel. I'm not liking that game design at all. It stops exploration. It stops using such systems as jumping spots. It would be perfectly fine if it prevented you from docking anywhere. Or made you a target for any system authority vessel that scanned you.

Ross 128. No idea how to get that permit, or what consequence that have. It just means that most likely huge parts of the populated galaxy is not available.

Checked a bit more, its a prison system. Rumored backdoor. Might be a mission to enter. Anyway, route planners need to take note and take system like this into account.

Yeah, I'm disappointed they implemented it that way. I'm down by Ross 128 trying to figure out how to get a permit too. Did see one mission to go there and it didn't mention a permit at all (couldn't take it because my rep was no high enough).

TGC definitely needs to store this permit data.

 

[RedWizzard]

Fair enough, we can't expect more than that.

I think it might have something to do with the fact that in Gamma the pill will probably be much MUCH larger. If they want to catch errors in the Stellar Forge they probably have to. In the past they had a small(er) pill and for that they had generated a spreadsheet. They might have not done that this time, or it might be impractical. Or they would have to do some work for it. Given the fact that they are swamped with work for a 16th of December I can understand that. Just my speculation and 2 euro cent.

Finger crossed for the list....

I expect gamma to be fully open (except for those areas they want to reserve for post release) so I'm really not expecting a complete list as there could be tens of thousands of inhabited systems.

Could he provide coordinates for 10-20 well spread out systems we nominate? I think that would be enough to make trilateration pretty easy.

 

[TornSoul]

Personally, if someone asked me for "20 reasonably spread out systems" I'd get a bit annoyed As it would require me to "have to think about it".

Much better is we provide a list of system names - and ask for the coordinates of those.
Say - The B3 list again. He already has the names.
Simple, easy.

It shouldn't matter if it's 20 or 800 systems really - The work is the same (as long as it isn't manual of course )

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

TGC definitely needs to store this permit data.

Is that a simple boolean ("system requires a permit") or is it a name (of the permit/who needs to issue it or??)

 

[RedWizzard]

Personally, if someone asked me for "20 reasonably spread out systems" I'd get a bit annoyed As it would require me to "have to think about it".

Much better is we provide a list of system names - and ask for the coordinates of those.

That's what "we nominate" means.

Say - The B3 list again. He already has the names.
Simple, easy.

It shouldn't matter if it's 20 or 800 systems really - The work is the same (as long as it isn't manual of course )

If we still had 3 dp that would be fine, but with 2 dp the B3 list is not that suitable for the wider galaxy. It struggles with systems beyond the ends of the cylinder in particular.

It probably is pretty manual, unless they've already built a tool to do it.

Is that a simple boolean ("system requires a permit") or is it a name (of the permit/who needs to issue it or??)

They are named permits but it probably doesn't matter unless a particular permit allows access to multiple systems or a particular system can require one of several permits. Don't yet know if that will be the case but I suspect it won't. I'd probably just go with a boolean for now and if the permit system turns out to be more complex we can always add another field with more detailed info.

 

[wolverine2710]

I expect gamma to be fully open (except for those areas they want to reserve for post release) so I'm really not expecting a complete list as there could be tens of thousands of inhabited systems.

Could he provide coordinates for 10-20 well spread out systems we nominate? I think that would be enough to make trilateration pretty easy.

@TornSouls and @Redwizzard. I could send Michael Brookes a new PM about it, I also referred to RW's post in the PM. Not sure if he's able to do that. From the quite a few/lot PM's I did send him I get the feeling that he IS willing to help us out but ONLY if it doesn't take resources away from the devs. Coordinates for PG system names looks very unlikely (unless they happen to have a spreadsheet for it for internal use, in which case he will try to provide it as he has written). But perhaps they are able to extract in a relative easy way coordinates for systems they have entered manually - or automated. The ones which are known to NASA or other institutes, have been cataloged and have been entered by FD in the SF to represent the Galaxy as good as possible.

Might I suggest waiting a few days after gamma to see what Michael Brookes can come up with. If he can't provide us with a list then I can ask him for coordinates (say 20) of good reference stars. BUT in that case we need to present him with a list of system names. I can tell him we can give him a list of what we consider good reference points IF he could help us with that. If he can do that THEN we have to send him a list of reference points. Is that OK for everyone? If someone else wants to send Michael Brookes a PM I'm of course totally fine with that.

Edit: I don't think SOL will be in Gamma but reserved for release 1.0. Tonight we will find out ;-)

 

[wolverine2710]

I expect gamma to be fully open (except for those areas they want to reserve for post release) so I'm really not expecting a complete list as there could be tens of thousands of inhabited systems.

Could he provide coordinates for 10-20 well spread out systems we nominate? I think that would be enough to make trilateration pretty easy.

This seems a good question to create a thread for - perhaps we get lucky and a FDEV responds. A thread like: How does the permit system work and perhaps someone already has figured it out or have been given permission to enter Ross 128.

Note: I'm curious if the in game basic route planner takes permits into account when planning a route. Have you been able to check that. If it does NOT take permits into account I think this has to be ticketed.

 

[wolverine2710]

3.9, we really should try to test the issues we've found in 3.0x. Like the systems missing stations. Or the search bug.

Sounds like a plan. Have you or someone else been able to check this? If not, as Gamma hits us today/evening/night I think its best to check this in Gamma.

Edit: You guessed it, not longer MIA and back with (more or less) full force.

 

[wolverine2710]

Outline of the data available in System view
(code view to preserve indentation... )

System (note To see this you have to remove focus from the sun/whatever - Using the highly un-intuitive "R+L mouse drag")
  Controlling faction (can potentially change?)
  Government
  State ?? No idea what this is
  Allegiance
  Population
  Security
  (note that economy is not listed here - But can bee seen on the Galaxy Map)
  A list of Factions

[/QUOTE]

When Gamma hits can you recheck this? If still info is NOT shown in the system maps but IS shown in the Galaxy Map I think this should be ticketed. 
Also about the things which are unknown to you (us), perhaps a separate thread would be useful. Perhaps someone has figured it out.

 

[Snuble]

The search bug was fixed, but you could still search for the Wred* systems and get to some other systems. Thats not a big issue, since it would require someone using pen&paper during beta.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

That's what I meant when I said overall allegiance was worth having.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -



Yeah, I'm disappointed they implemented it that way. I'm down by Ross 128 trying to figure out how to get a permit too. Did see one mission to go there and it didn't mention a permit at all (couldn't take it because my rep was no high enough).

TGC definitely needs to store this permit data.

Taking a mission to Ross 128 did not help no. So its "something else" both for an official permit and backdoor permit. If its even implemented...

 

[RedWizzard]

Taking a mission to Ross 128 did not help no. So its "something else" both for an official permit and backdoor permit. If its even implemented...

I think I saw something in the release notes for 3.9 indicating that a permit could be part of the reward for a mission. Haven't seen any missions that look like they do it though.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

@TornSouls and @Redwizzard. I could send Michael Brookes a new PM about it, I also referred to RW's post in the PM. Not sure if he's able to do that. From the quite a few/lot PM's I did send him I get the feeling that he IS willing to help us out but ONLY if it doesn't take resources away from the devs. Coordinates for PG system names looks very unlikely (unless they happen to have a spreadsheet for it for internal use, in which case he will try to provide it as he has written). But perhaps they are able to extract in a relative easy way coordinates for systems they have entered manually - or automated. The ones which are known to NASA or other institutes, have been cataloged and have been entered by FD in the SF to represent the Galaxy as good as possible.

Might I suggest waiting a few days after gamma to see what Michael Brookes can come up with. If he can't provide us with a list then I can ask him for coordinates (say 20) of good reference stars. BUT in that case we need to present him with a list of system names. I can tell him we can give him a list of what we consider good reference points IF he could help us with that. If he can do that THEN we have to send him a list of reference points. Is that OK for everyone? If someone else wants to send Michael Brookes a PM I'm of course totally fine with that.

Edit: I don't think SOL will be in Gamma but reserved for release 1.0. Tonight we will find out ;-)

I agree about waiting, and about the process you described: ask him if he is able to do it and if he is then provide a list of up to about 20 names (of non-PG) systems.

 

[Snuble]

Question is, do we really need them? Would we not - over time - get good enough data by noting down and submit the distances from wherever we are now? This is how I intend to explore when we have persistant data - and also to some limited extent during Gamma. Compare the list of the nearest systems around me to what data is currently in DB, get aproximate coords for systems that do not match my stored data, save all the distances, and move on.

(now, the move on part would also include getting market data, and other system metrics, and once we're on confirmed data - and I have the advanced scanners, also get exploration data.)

From how I understand Tornsoul he will recalculate positions when he get a new distance?

 

[Rhulan]

Hey guys, I've updated my application a bit. Added some UI styling, an intro page and the data is now loaded purely from RedWizzard's JSON.
If it looks wonky be sure to clear your browser cache as the CSS has been changed quite a bit.
Next up I'm going to look at hooking it up to EDSC for data.

 

[RedWizzard]

The Pill is gone. Seems the whole galaxy is open.

We've got multiple commodity markets per system. In fact it looks like pretty much all stations and outposts have markets.