Yeah, I wasn't talking about impact on the economy, rather, the security slider.
Though... it looks less extreme than I remember?
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"Development Level >>"? Figuring out what all these numbers do.
- Thread starter Ian Doncaster
- Start date
Though... it looks less extreme than I remember?
Following up on this,built the medium extraction settlement yesterday, connected today to 8800 pops, it seems like it just added 500 pops, will update if after thaurgsday, once it comes online,if there are further pop increases.
Next project is a coriolis, this one may take a long time, as im really tired of hauling and would rather go prepare for the sudden but inevitable thargoid return, see what fighthing em is like, if anyone would like to help me: https://inara.cz/elite/starsystem/11577/ i will gladly accept any contributions on the coriolis (And any other project here). If anyone has any ideas how my system could further contribute towards understanding colonisation, id be glad to hear them, particularly if they are willing to chip in to the construction projects, im rather burnt out of hauling.
Edit: furthermore, while the market at the industrial outpost is still pretty sparse, i can atleast get enough food cartridges for a construction now, still nowhere near enough computer components or water purifiers tho https://inara.cz/elite/station-market/682304/
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Correct! The civilian/outpost hub types should not be confused with civilian outposts.
The strange part is that there are "Civilian" and "Outpost" type hubs with no listed economy influence, which is seemingly at odds with the entire point of a hub. There aren't any listed population benefits and their stats aren't unqiuely notable either. I have some theories, but they're all currently unfounded
Here:
I was wondering if anyone had built either of these atypical hub types and if so, have they noticed any change in the economy or production/population of local ports/outposts.
Interesting. We can probably assume that one chevron point is worth >1 point on those scales, I expect.
It will take some time to verify unfortunately, if it's 1=1 then those kinds of systems will be very rare and require a ton of work.
It's also possible - likely, I think - that those were the criteria for adding the Carrier Admin services to systems as a one-off action, but systems which meet those criteria in future won't get one automatically.
Certainly none of the systems in Colonia with those services meet the population requirement.
Wayback does show that information as far back as Feb 2024, so I agree with your assessment.
Right, this is promising.
- start with an Industrial Outpost: hydrogen fuel supply 73t (TL 3, DL 2)
- build a Colony planetary port - decreases security, increases SoL: HFuel 73t (TL 3, DL 2, Sec -2, SoL 3)
- build a Military settlement - increases security to above its starting point: HFuel 73t (TL 3, DL 2, Sec 2, Sol 3)
- build a Satellite installation - increases wealth, SoL and development slightly: HFuel 435t (TL 3, DL 3, Sec 2, Sol 4, W 1)
So it seems likely that wealth or development level are the ones which affect market sizes - I'll be building some more things which affect just one of them to see what happens next.
- start with an Industrial Outpost: hydrogen fuel supply 73t (TL 3, DL 2)
- build a Colony planetary port - decreases security, increases SoL: HFuel 73t (TL 3, DL 2, Sec -2, SoL 3)
- build a Military settlement - increases security to above its starting point: HFuel 73t (TL 3, DL 2, Sec 2, Sol 3)
- build a Satellite installation - increases wealth, SoL and development slightly: HFuel 435t (TL 3, DL 3, Sec 2, Sol 4, W 1)
So it seems likely that wealth or development level are the ones which affect market sizes - I'll be building some more things which affect just one of them to see what happens next.
Yeah interesting. I remember them now... but no idea. Maybe standard of living is more important than the others by some metric? Or they tie in to station services? Guess there's only one way to find out.Correct! The civilian/outpost hub types should not be confused with civilian outposts.
According to the pilot's handbook and general consesus here, the purpose of hubs seem to be to influence local civilian (economy type = colony) ports/outposts into the hub's designated economy type. Though they also appear to influence the system economy type too.
The strange part is that there are "Civilian" and "Outpost" type hubs with no listed economy influence, which is seemingly at odds with the entire point of a hub. There aren't any listed population benefits and their stats aren't unqiuely notable either. I have some theories, but they're all currently unfounded
Here:
A 'normal' hub for comparison:
I was wondering if anyone had built either of these atypical hub types and if so, have they noticed any change in the economy or production/population of local ports/outposts.
Oh. That is... a large increase. Something really scales exponentially here.
I didn't look at supply, only at demand.
There e.g. Grain went from
(Sec -2, TL 12, W 17, SoL 5, DL 16) => Grain Demand 139
to
(Sec 5, TL 18, W 22, SoL 10, DL 30) => Grain Demand 9835
Be interesting to see what, if any effect Security has there.
It's possible it takes a while to kick the modifiers in. I had two installations (relay and comms) and the game showed 100.000 going to 101.000. Since I finished them pretty much 10 minutes appart from each other, I guessed it meant one of those installations give 500 on average but I was wrong: several hours later, it was updated to 102.000.
Now as far as pondering on build order, I've been wondering if being a maniac pumping out a t3 planetary asap for the +10 stat would change a modifier in population increase from any other building made.
I've been attempting to do no economy influencers for as long as possible to pump up tier2 connections and projected delaying the creation of t3 ports before this question raised in my head for pop. The trick for me is that I can't rush t3 construction points with odyssey settlements because I wanted to specifically make a system without any of those: ports, non eco influencing installations (tricky to improve "attribute" score) and only slam down hubs last when ready for the eco decider, assuming the sheer system attributes (SoL etc) don't have a say in that.
My worry is that I don't know if making a mere outpost or t1 port counts towards the "haha grind harder" debuff. I wanted to approach pumping up market supply/demand via population increase only for as long as possible (homogenous progression to exclude as much potential factors as I can) and then compare with the addition of hubs one by one, to see if new commodities appear past the colony eco being replaced as I add more of the same hubs (or not)
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Anyone used this tool yet to help analyze building effects?
GitHub - cmdr-nowski/syscol_helper: System Colonisation Overview and Prototyping for Elite
System Colonisation Overview and Prototyping for Elite - cmdr-nowski/syscol_helper
github.com
My understanding was that tool was mostly for tracking your builds and stats, not what the actual effects were... @Nowski ?
Anyone used this tool yet to help analyze building effects?
GitHub - cmdr-nowski/syscol_helper: System Colonisation Overview and Prototyping for Elite
System Colonisation Overview and Prototyping for Elite - cmdr-nowski/syscol_helper
You could place an anarchy faction as #1 for science and see if negative security from turbo boosting any other stat and see what happens :3
It's not often looked at since demand in BM's vary from different factors depending on what shinies you bring under the coat, but maybe low sec increases BM demands/unlocks some illegals that wouldn't be there with higher sec or just altogether some of the legal-in-some-illegal-in-others kinds of commodities would shift them out of the BM
Then do it again but this time adding contraband structures to compare
so fellow Commanders, after a good nights sleep I think I had an epiphany regarding
What If we look at the whole thing from the very wrong angle?
FDev clearly has a multi-stage model of how their markets & economy works, to get .e.g. a Ocellus/Orbis working in full capacity one needs 6 Tier 2 Facilities - and thus 12 Tier 1 (yes I know the doubling Points apply for spaceports only, but I guess thats a hint in general) facilities to have the supplier-background to fill their markets and enable other facitiies?
I think FDev for the initial two Tier2/3 Space-Port construction JUST HALVED the actual requirements to avoid loads of salt and whining in the players community "why do I have to build so much 'uninteresting' stuff before I can build a Coriolis/Ocellus/Astro-Base ?" if they would have implemented the actual requirements from the beginning.
Same applies to the (economiccaly stupid) ability to build any Spaceport as a primary port.
Guess FDev came to the conclusion "well, let them do as they wish, they´ll find out quickly enoughthat it doesn´t work and we do not need to listen to all that whining....."
So yes, there is no written paper of what is needed in which way to enable bigger (space)Ports full capacity, but with that increase (maybe actually removal of discount for the first two builds) we got a clear hint to the actual requirements.
I might be completely wrong, but to me that POV explains a lot.....
edit: numbers mentioned above must not be taken literally - they are an example
- Tier Point increase after 2 Space Port Constructions
- missing manuals
- lumpy markets at Ports m.a.
What If we look at the whole thing from the very wrong angle?
FDev clearly has a multi-stage model of how their markets & economy works, to get .e.g. a Ocellus/Orbis working in full capacity one needs 6 Tier 2 Facilities - and thus 12 Tier 1 (yes I know the doubling Points apply for spaceports only, but I guess thats a hint in general) facilities to have the supplier-background to fill their markets and enable other facitiies?
I think FDev for the initial two Tier2/3 Space-Port construction JUST HALVED the actual requirements to avoid loads of salt and whining in the players community "why do I have to build so much 'uninteresting' stuff before I can build a Coriolis/Ocellus/Astro-Base ?" if they would have implemented the actual requirements from the beginning.
Same applies to the (economiccaly stupid) ability to build any Spaceport as a primary port.
Guess FDev came to the conclusion "well, let them do as they wish, they´ll find out quickly enoughthat it doesn´t work and we do not need to listen to all that whining....."
So yes, there is no written paper of what is needed in which way to enable bigger (space)Ports full capacity, but with that increase (maybe actually removal of discount for the first two builds) we got a clear hint to the actual requirements.
I might be completely wrong, but to me that POV explains a lot.....
edit: numbers mentioned above must not be taken literally - they are an example
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I use it to re-create FDev Systems (re-modeling them in there) which Economies / Mats I want to build and compare the results of that tools system-stats to GalMap-Info.
Anyone used this tool yet to help analyze building effects?
GitHub - cmdr-nowski/syscol_helper: System Colonisation Overview and Prototyping for Elite
System Colonisation Overview and Prototyping for Elite - cmdr-nowski/syscol_helper
Then I copy the layout of FDev system to my system and hope it works
Of cause I use it for the originaly intended use as well, all the time actually
to give a speculative thought about the whole mechanics of colonization (warning - wall of text), I´ll post my theory here (thx @Ian Doncaster for permission).
Please don´t pick on wording, I am not a native english speaker
edit: to verify /test this theory, I currently am building an Mini-Bubble some ~70 Ly away from the nearest established Market, consisting of a Hightec (center), a Refinery/Industry, an Industry/Hightec, an Argriculture and an Extraction System.
All these 5 Systems will be develeoped step by step in parallel, to be able to determine if their raising developement-levels influence each other (hopefully in a positive way).
If Commanders want to join the experiment and develope one of those Systems, they are most welcome to join [BPCL] Black Pearl Cruises Ltd Squad under three conditions:
1. you DO NOT bring a PP-Faction with you (we do not need that PP Stuff influencing the experiment)
2. you do develope your first System (part of the experiment) in accordance to the requirements needed by the experiment (so no funny stuff)
3. for the duration of your participation you adhere to the priciples and code of conduct of Explorers on Tour (German PMF which owns those Systems - currently)
Thanks a lot for your understanding of these conditions
Please don´t pick on wording, I am not a native english speaker
Basic considerations:
FDev loves to develop its simulations on a scientific basis, so (except for bugs) no fundamental irritations/illogic are to be expected.
The systems to be developed must function within the framework of existing game mechanics - BGS, trade routes, politics (PP) etc.
As the layout of the offered stations, installations, etc. shows, there are basically two factors that are influenced with each facility - system-wide and local.
The basic consideration of any system development therefore is the macroeconomic situation of the system as a first step - position in the galaxy, surrounding systems (what do we have in the environment? Industry, refinery, agriculture, high-tech?) as this most likely has an impact on the potential markets of the system
(@Ian Doncaster - I know that in the bubble/colonia that could not be observed, but in the bubble it might be buffered by mid-range systems, in Colonia most likely by Buff by FDev).
To use an image: it is not very promising if you build a corner shop between 4 large branches of Edeka, Penny, Aldi and Lidl.
So you first have to evaluate the characteristics of your system (how big is it developable -> how many slots do I have available, what resources are in the system -> HMC, hotspots etc.) and then decide what kind of system you want to build under the aforementioned macroeconomic aspects.
FDev's economic model seems to function primarily on a cell logic:
each type of economy acts (to varying degrees) with each other, but it is also dependent on the other economies for function.
Here in this context I limit myself to the basic economy that is necessary for the functioning of a society, so the other economies occurring in Elite, such as Terraforming, Military etc, are missing.
This seems to apply to both macroeconomics (galactic neighbourhood) and systems economics.
Working hypothesis: this also applies, to a lesser extent, to the regional and local economy.
FDev loves to develop its simulations on a scientific basis, so (except for bugs) no fundamental irritations/illogic are to be expected.
The systems to be developed must function within the framework of existing game mechanics - BGS, trade routes, politics (PP) etc.
As the layout of the offered stations, installations, etc. shows, there are basically two factors that are influenced with each facility - system-wide and local.
The basic consideration of any system development therefore is the macroeconomic situation of the system as a first step - position in the galaxy, surrounding systems (what do we have in the environment? Industry, refinery, agriculture, high-tech?) as this most likely has an impact on the potential markets of the system
(@Ian Doncaster - I know that in the bubble/colonia that could not be observed, but in the bubble it might be buffered by mid-range systems, in Colonia most likely by Buff by FDev).
To use an image: it is not very promising if you build a corner shop between 4 large branches of Edeka, Penny, Aldi and Lidl.
So you first have to evaluate the characteristics of your system (how big is it developable -> how many slots do I have available, what resources are in the system -> HMC, hotspots etc.) and then decide what kind of system you want to build under the aforementioned macroeconomic aspects.
FDev's economic model seems to function primarily on a cell logic:
each type of economy acts (to varying degrees) with each other, but it is also dependent on the other economies for function.
Here in this context I limit myself to the basic economy that is necessary for the functioning of a society, so the other economies occurring in Elite, such as Terraforming, Military etc, are missing.
This seems to apply to both macroeconomics (galactic neighbourhood) and systems economics.
Working hypothesis: this also applies, to a lesser extent, to the regional and local economy.
System Economics
The system economy is based on two factors
They are system-wide influences
These are influenced to the appropriate extent (positive, neutral or negative) in system-wide sum by the individual stations/installations built.
It follows that facilities that are built to influence these factors are location-independent.
Thus it doesn't matter whether you build a military/security facility to strengthen security in space or on the ground - regardless of what you can build and how many corresponding influence points the built achieves.
The system economy is based on two factors
- the system-wide influences
- the structure and orientation of regional and local economies
They are system-wide influences
- Population
- Security
- Technology
- Prosperity and
- Standard of living
These are influenced to the appropriate extent (positive, neutral or negative) in system-wide sum by the individual stations/installations built.
It follows that facilities that are built to influence these factors are location-independent.
Thus it doesn't matter whether you build a military/security facility to strengthen security in space or on the ground - regardless of what you can build and how many corresponding influence points the built achieves.
Economic structure
This is where the (partially) speculative part begins......
Systems economics results from the structure and weighting of regional economies.
These in turn are determined by the local economies, which again represent the sum of the microeconomies.
Example: I build on a moon (let's say A 3 a - not in the System shown above) with 6 surface slots,
3 x a mining settlement, a mining hub, an industrial settlement and a small organic settlement (and thus covered the areas of agriculture, raw materials and production),
then an outpost in orbit (as a local market) would probably have a mining market with a corresponding commodity supply and demand profile.
If I now build on A 3 b (5 slots) 1 x mining settlement, 2 x industrial settlement, industrial hub and bio settlement, an outpost here would have an industrial local Market.
If I instead of those two Outposts would build an Outpost in a Slot orbiting A 3, these two local Market-Economies most likely would result in a regional Market Extraction/Industry.
The same logic is likely to continue via the economics of the connected regional markets to the system market.
This is where the (partially) speculative part begins......
Systems economics results from the structure and weighting of regional economies.
These in turn are determined by the local economies, which again represent the sum of the microeconomies.
Example: I build on a moon (let's say A 3 a - not in the System shown above) with 6 surface slots,
3 x a mining settlement, a mining hub, an industrial settlement and a small organic settlement (and thus covered the areas of agriculture, raw materials and production),
then an outpost in orbit (as a local market) would probably have a mining market with a corresponding commodity supply and demand profile.
If I now build on A 3 b (5 slots) 1 x mining settlement, 2 x industrial settlement, industrial hub and bio settlement, an outpost here would have an industrial local Market.
If I instead of those two Outposts would build an Outpost in a Slot orbiting A 3, these two local Market-Economies most likely would result in a regional Market Extraction/Industry.
The same logic is likely to continue via the economics of the connected regional markets to the system market.
Supply and demand for goods as well as station equipment
Initial experiments have shown that (as already described above) the supply and demand of goods in the markets are based on the underlying economic structure of the respective markets.
The quality and quantities of the goods again are dependent on the system-wide influencing factors of prosperity and tech level.
The same applies to the equipment of stations.
Yes, you can build a Coriolis or Ocellus, but it seems that station services such as Universal Cartographis, Vista-Genomis, Shipyard !! etc. can also only be unlocked by corresponding system-wide and local/regional influencing factors.
This would also explain why suddenly corresponding facilities can be temporarily unavailable due to BGS status changes of a system (e.g. lockdown).
Speculation: the increase of Tier-Points needed after constructing the second spaceport for me hints at the number of market-supporting installations to support that markets fiull functionality.
So I strongly believe that the prerequisites for building the first two Coriolis/Astro-Station, Ocellus/Orbis, Tier 3 surface Port just have been waved by FDev, thus enabling Commanders to shape their Systems to their liking at a more early stage -
but that doesn´t change circumstance that for proper function of those Installations, a sound infrastructure backing them is required.
If you build a Mega-Mall in a small 5000 Heads Village with no other infrastructure, that one will be 90% empty as well......
Initial experiments have shown that (as already described above) the supply and demand of goods in the markets are based on the underlying economic structure of the respective markets.
The quality and quantities of the goods again are dependent on the system-wide influencing factors of prosperity and tech level.
The same applies to the equipment of stations.
Yes, you can build a Coriolis or Ocellus, but it seems that station services such as Universal Cartographis, Vista-Genomis, Shipyard !! etc. can also only be unlocked by corresponding system-wide and local/regional influencing factors.
This would also explain why suddenly corresponding facilities can be temporarily unavailable due to BGS status changes of a system (e.g. lockdown).
Speculation: the increase of Tier-Points needed after constructing the second spaceport for me hints at the number of market-supporting installations to support that markets fiull functionality.
So I strongly believe that the prerequisites for building the first two Coriolis/Astro-Station, Ocellus/Orbis, Tier 3 surface Port just have been waved by FDev, thus enabling Commanders to shape their Systems to their liking at a more early stage -
but that doesn´t change circumstance that for proper function of those Installations, a sound infrastructure backing them is required.
If you build a Mega-Mall in a small 5000 Heads Village with no other infrastructure, that one will be 90% empty as well......
edit: to verify /test this theory, I currently am building an Mini-Bubble some ~70 Ly away from the nearest established Market, consisting of a Hightec (center), a Refinery/Industry, an Industry/Hightec, an Argriculture and an Extraction System.
All these 5 Systems will be develeoped step by step in parallel, to be able to determine if their raising developement-levels influence each other (hopefully in a positive way).
If Commanders want to join the experiment and develope one of those Systems, they are most welcome to join [BPCL] Black Pearl Cruises Ltd Squad under three conditions:
1. you DO NOT bring a PP-Faction with you (we do not need that PP Stuff influencing the experiment)
2. you do develope your first System (part of the experiment) in accordance to the requirements needed by the experiment (so no funny stuff)
3. for the duration of your participation you adhere to the priciples and code of conduct of Explorers on Tour (German PMF which owns those Systems - currently)
Thanks a lot for your understanding of these conditions
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Tbh, after years of figuring out the BGS, i am convinced that an empirical approach helps more than a theoretical one.
Just press buttons and see what happens. And if it works, do more of it.
There are many things in Elite that do not make sense from a theoretical perspective. Like
- population not changing, ever (now building stuff changes population, bit only once when you actually finish the building)
- Supply/Demand not changing when you import raw materials or production items. (Like importing Bauxite has no influence on the supply of Aluminum, only on the demand of Bauxite)
Elite is basically a fixed state economy, not dynamic. Only thing that changes anything are the BGS states. And they do so in a fixed way, and revert back after ending. So we need to find out how to set up the systems to give them the state we want to have. If things work as they did, they won't change after that. And i am convinced this is still the case, otherwise I'd see growing population in my system.