Or because they have brains capable of seeing beyond the immediate and are able to think independently, laterally
But don't worry yourself about that son
Scrap or redesign shield cell modules, they are too overpowered and trivialize PvP.
- Thread starter KazumaKat
- Start date
But don't worry yourself about that son
Ignoring all the fun & frolicks over opinion, lets look just at
Game Mechanics:
The game is designed around a three-way system of power management: Systems (Shields), Engine (Maneuverability) and Weapons (Ability to do damage).
Depending on your circumstances you are able to alter your power distribution to suit your immediate needs in any battle by altering any one of these settings, that automatically impacts on the other settings, so more Systems (Shields) means better able to withstand damage and quicker to recharge if downed, but impacts on Damage ability and Engine ability... its a simple system that has worked well in dozens of space games.
So this system underpins any and all combat and the "skillful" part of combat is managing these three areas during combat to best suit how that combat is taking place.
Shields Cells:
Shield Cells are presented as being big batteries in which you store energy that can rapidly be pumped into shields when needed. SO far that sounds great, but lets look instead at their actual usage and effects within the game:
You can stack multiple shield cells to give you large numbers of re-charge ability: this means that you can actually set your Systems power to the lowest setting as you can use shield cell energy to power your shields, rather than ship-energy.
That *saved* ship energy now can go into Engines or Weapons, giving you a boost in maneuverability or damage output.
The most effective use of that energy is Damage output, as this reduces damage you may take (killing it quicker means it cant shoot you).
Thus in any combat the ability of ship to put out damage is increased significantly by being able to switch shield energy into weapons energy - giving us a two-part change in combat circumstances:
1) Shields can be boosted to prevent failure with multiple "recharges"
2) Energy to weapons can be increased for greater damage output as that energy is no longer needed in Systems (shields).
and a
3) Increased ability to evade or maneuver (more energy to engines/boost and we can escape combat whilst we use shield cells to maintain our defences)
The overall effect therefore being:
1) Increased survivability in battle
2) Increased lethality in raised damage output
3) Increased ability to evade combat (BBSR - aka the "Brave Brave Sir Robin" effect)
So in terms of pure mechanics the presence of shield cells radically alters the combat dynamic based around availability to energy, not just in shields, but in all areas of combat (as that shield energy is redistributed elsewhere).
---
Opinion:
The *skill* required in maintaining weapons power has evaporated; you can blat away safely knowing you have lots of power... you don't need to conserve shots for certain hits, you can *risk* wasting energy on low-chance shots. (And one wonders if this doesnt have something to do with NPC ships running into players shots). You can always run away: 4 pips to weapons means at least one or 2 to engines and boost ability - you almost always will have energy to boost away from danger, "Super shields" alternatively you can play with pips still in the shields AND use shield cells, thus giving you powerful shields with X recharges whilst maintaining your *intended* maneuverability and damage output... meaning you are tougher than *you should be*.
If we then combine all of those elements we are faced with a single inexorable conclusion: Shield Cells make combat much easier... with the addendum that, in the process, they reduce the skill required for combat by eradicating the majority if skill needed to maintain 3-way power distribution during a combat encounter... you can just pump shields and blat away as often as you like.
So, if you have wondered why Elite combat is so easy, you should now have a good idea of why.
"Give NPCs Shield Cells then!"
This is not a good idea as it does nothing to fix the underlying problem. Giving both NPCs and Players shield cells simply results in an extended fight, not a more skillful one. THAT is of the utmost importance and the distinction cannot be ignored: skill v longevity.
Many might consider a long fight is, by default, a "better" type of encounter... but is it really much fun seeing who has more shield cells than the other person...and does the simple longevity of an encounter really determine anything about the relative skill of the pilots involved?
When we fight other people it should be, wherever and as much as possible, about skill. Now this is obviously affected strongly by the type and fitting of the ships in that encounter, as it should be, but if we consider any two ships, of the same type and with the same fittings, then please ask yourself this one question:
Do you want to lose because the other guy just had more shield cells than you?
Are you content to lose even though it was clear you were the better pilot?
Do you want to win simply because you had multiple-slot shield cells and the other guy didnt?
Or do you want to win, or lose, due to skill?
Entirely up to you, but I know which I would rather want.
Conclusion:
Shield Cells break the fundamental mechanics of the 3-way power system.
Shield Cells have a cascading effect upon all other elements of combat, including damage output and ability to escape.
All of the above combine to make combat easier, either to win, survive or escape.
Within the above are other *hidden* effects of the *free-ing up* of Systems energy: does this make people blat away carelessly (hitting NPCs more often by *accident*)? Does this mean you can use smaller shield system and use that space for increased cargo where not intended? Will this create "MOB inflation"? (Whereby MOBs get ever-increasing *cheats* {shield cells} to combat those the players have) and does the longevity of any combat encounter really define its difficulty? Should we be easily killing Elite Anacondas... or should we really be dieing by the droves (unless we can successfully dance around them and snipe their power systems)...or, more logically, require a Wing of friends to take them out at all.
When the whole picture is looked at, rather than an individual components, it certainly looks to me that Shield Cells are at the root of many issues and that their continued presence in any format dumbs the game down by significant degrees.
Game Mechanics:
The game is designed around a three-way system of power management: Systems (Shields), Engine (Maneuverability) and Weapons (Ability to do damage).
Depending on your circumstances you are able to alter your power distribution to suit your immediate needs in any battle by altering any one of these settings, that automatically impacts on the other settings, so more Systems (Shields) means better able to withstand damage and quicker to recharge if downed, but impacts on Damage ability and Engine ability... its a simple system that has worked well in dozens of space games.
So this system underpins any and all combat and the "skillful" part of combat is managing these three areas during combat to best suit how that combat is taking place.
Shields Cells:
Shield Cells are presented as being big batteries in which you store energy that can rapidly be pumped into shields when needed. SO far that sounds great, but lets look instead at their actual usage and effects within the game:
You can stack multiple shield cells to give you large numbers of re-charge ability: this means that you can actually set your Systems power to the lowest setting as you can use shield cell energy to power your shields, rather than ship-energy.
That *saved* ship energy now can go into Engines or Weapons, giving you a boost in maneuverability or damage output.
The most effective use of that energy is Damage output, as this reduces damage you may take (killing it quicker means it cant shoot you).
Thus in any combat the ability of ship to put out damage is increased significantly by being able to switch shield energy into weapons energy - giving us a two-part change in combat circumstances:
1) Shields can be boosted to prevent failure with multiple "recharges"
2) Energy to weapons can be increased for greater damage output as that energy is no longer needed in Systems (shields).
and a
3) Increased ability to evade or maneuver (more energy to engines/boost and we can escape combat whilst we use shield cells to maintain our defences)
The overall effect therefore being:
1) Increased survivability in battle
2) Increased lethality in raised damage output
3) Increased ability to evade combat (BBSR - aka the "Brave Brave Sir Robin" effect)
So in terms of pure mechanics the presence of shield cells radically alters the combat dynamic based around availability to energy, not just in shields, but in all areas of combat (as that shield energy is redistributed elsewhere).
---
Opinion:
The *skill* required in maintaining weapons power has evaporated; you can blat away safely knowing you have lots of power... you don't need to conserve shots for certain hits, you can *risk* wasting energy on low-chance shots. (And one wonders if this doesnt have something to do with NPC ships running into players shots). You can always run away: 4 pips to weapons means at least one or 2 to engines and boost ability - you almost always will have energy to boost away from danger, "Super shields" alternatively you can play with pips still in the shields AND use shield cells, thus giving you powerful shields with X recharges whilst maintaining your *intended* maneuverability and damage output... meaning you are tougher than *you should be*.
If we then combine all of those elements we are faced with a single inexorable conclusion: Shield Cells make combat much easier... with the addendum that, in the process, they reduce the skill required for combat by eradicating the majority if skill needed to maintain 3-way power distribution during a combat encounter... you can just pump shields and blat away as often as you like.
So, if you have wondered why Elite combat is so easy, you should now have a good idea of why.
"Give NPCs Shield Cells then!"
This is not a good idea as it does nothing to fix the underlying problem. Giving both NPCs and Players shield cells simply results in an extended fight, not a more skillful one. THAT is of the utmost importance and the distinction cannot be ignored: skill v longevity.
Many might consider a long fight is, by default, a "better" type of encounter... but is it really much fun seeing who has more shield cells than the other person...and does the simple longevity of an encounter really determine anything about the relative skill of the pilots involved?
When we fight other people it should be, wherever and as much as possible, about skill. Now this is obviously affected strongly by the type and fitting of the ships in that encounter, as it should be, but if we consider any two ships, of the same type and with the same fittings, then please ask yourself this one question:
Do you want to lose because the other guy just had more shield cells than you?
Are you content to lose even though it was clear you were the better pilot?
Do you want to win simply because you had multiple-slot shield cells and the other guy didnt?
Or do you want to win, or lose, due to skill?
Entirely up to you, but I know which I would rather want.
Conclusion:
Shield Cells break the fundamental mechanics of the 3-way power system.
Shield Cells have a cascading effect upon all other elements of combat, including damage output and ability to escape.
All of the above combine to make combat easier, either to win, survive or escape.
Within the above are other *hidden* effects of the *free-ing up* of Systems energy: does this make people blat away carelessly (hitting NPCs more often by *accident*)? Does this mean you can use smaller shield system and use that space for increased cargo where not intended? Will this create "MOB inflation"? (Whereby MOBs get ever-increasing *cheats* {shield cells} to combat those the players have) and does the longevity of any combat encounter really define its difficulty? Should we be easily killing Elite Anacondas... or should we really be dieing by the droves (unless we can successfully dance around them and snipe their power systems)...or, more logically, require a Wing of friends to take them out at all.
When the whole picture is looked at, rather than an individual components, it certainly looks to me that Shield Cells are at the root of many issues and that their continued presence in any format dumbs the game down by significant degrees.
I dunno, it cuts through and kills ships no problems at all, sometimes takes longer so could be then or could just be stronger shield generator, works much faster than any of the lasers I've tried so far and I been in since alpha.
Of course if you are trying to kill someone and you see that they are using shield cells and you don't like that then just leave, activate the FSD and go kill someone who doesn't have shield cells. It's to easy to leave combat in this game so just go and find someone else to shoot at instead of complaining about the game having choices in it.
If you think it makes it boring why dont you just not fit them?? Why ask for it to be nerfed for everyone?
Personally I was surprised I could fit more than one, and don't have room in my viper anyway.
+1 for 1 only
Had you continued your thought process you would've come to a completely different conclusion. Consider this:
you are stacked with shield cells and so am I. We meet in battle both with energy diverted to weapons and engine as we see fit, nothing to systems as we are stacked with shield cells
my fully energised lasers eat through your shields as do yours mine, we use our shield cells and again, the battle continues longer than would have been the case without shield cells, we enjoy it a lot more
problem is that I relied too heavily on sheild cells, whilst you tried to save them more conscious of evading me etc etc
now im out of cells but your not. Your better skill and use of the cells has given you advantage in the end game
im having to play harder and better to try to even things out. Maybe my flying skill will save me, maybe I have a better weapon load out or maybe I manage to turn and run before getting to SC
however it ends, shield cells were just another of the tools available to the skilled commander, just like a weapon, the choice of which shield generator to use or whether to go for fixed, gimbal or turrets etc etc
to say at this stage of the games life that shield cells have been fully investigated, their full tactical use in battle identified and understood (instead of just cell spamming against NPC sidewinders
) their weaknesses discovered etc etc is just not true and is unrealistic to suggest as suchJust another opinion
Or they could just fix shield cells since they're a toxic gameplay element. It seems you haven't had much experience with them. It's not just that I can't kill people, it's that I CANT DIE. EVER. I HAVEN'T DIED ONCE SINCE USING THEM.
Wow you must be good or taking on the wrong kind of foe.... Seriously, why don't you just remove them if you hate the fact that you cant die!
wanna bet?
Had you continued your thought process you would've come to a completely different conclusion. Consider this:
you are stacked with shield cells and so am I. We meet in battle both with energy diverted to weapons and engine as we see fit, nothing to systems as we are stacked with shield cells
my fully energised lasers eat through your shields as do yours mine, we use our shield cells and again, the battle continues longer than would have been the case without shield cells, we enjoy it a lot more
problem is that I relied too heavily on sheild cells, whilst you tried to save them more conscious of evading me etc etc
now im out of cells but your not. Your better skill and use of the cells has given you advantage in the end game
im having to play harder and better to try to even things out. Maybe my flying skill will save me, maybe I have a better weapon load out or maybe I manage to turn and run before getting to SC
however it ends, shield cells were just another of the tools available to the skilled commander, just like a weapon, the choice of which shield generator to use or whether to go for fixed, gimbal or turrets etc etc
to say at this stage of the games life that shield cells have been fully investigated, their full tactical use in battle identified and understood (instead of just cell spamming against NPC sidewinders
Just another opinion
Of course given the same gear the most skilfully and tactically aware pilot should win and that still applies to shield cells. However shield cells do heavily skew and deempahise several other tactical parameters of a fight, for example hull strength is much less important, projectile weapons are effectively nerfed because in fight you spending only maybe 10% of your time firing on the enemies hull.
I must be good? No. I'm subpar. My enemies must be pushovers, right? Now. I've taken on two competent player vipers at the same time and came out on TOP because I brought more shield cells than they did. I've face tanked dozens of Anacondas.
Why doesn't Frontier just remove an overpowered, broken mechanic which requires no skill? The extent of gameplay it offers is "oh no I'm almost out of health! Let me press the button to fix that!" It's potion chugging. Skill-less, boring, toxic mechanic.
The alternative is far worse.
No seriously, anyone that hasnt played in PB and Beta 1 before cells where implemented, grab a friend and fight without any cells, see how the combat turns out. Try it, then try it again when each ship is worth a million plus in insurance.
Then consult the DDF and how Frontier wanted to have combat play out, do a bit of research on the topic.
And for gods sake stop implying that just because cells are currently required for combat means they are OP. Might as well remove Cargo Racks and KWS then, after all these are also required for their respective fields? Hell lets go one step farther and remove shields all together, gotta have those to!
Frack it lets just cut to the real point and just lay it bare.
No one should have any incentive to fly anything bigger then a Cobra.
Its not like shields don't drop rapidly enough as it is if you are caught without pips into system.
No seriously, anyone that hasnt played in PB and Beta 1 before cells where implemented, grab a friend and fight without any cells, see how the combat turns out. Try it, then try it again when each ship is worth a million plus in insurance.
Then consult the DDF and how Frontier wanted to have combat play out, do a bit of research on the topic.
And for gods sake stop implying that just because cells are currently required for combat means they are OP. Might as well remove Cargo Racks and KWS then, after all these are also required for their respective fields? Hell lets go one step farther and remove shields all together, gotta have those to!
Frack it lets just cut to the real point and just lay it bare.
No one should have any incentive to fly anything bigger then a Cobra.
Its not like shields don't drop rapidly enough as it is if you are caught without pips into system.
Last edited:
I considered combat in beta 1 to be vastly better than where it is now. In beta 1, it was skill based, fast, lethal, and dangerous. Barring balance issues such as uncatchable vipers, I felt it was more representative of what Frontier described. I could die, and I could also limp away from a fight where I was out of my league. But I was punished for being cocky and picking fights I couldn't win.
* I had reason to fear an Anaconda's beam lasers
http://puu.sh/dKMXB/ceef06d53c.webm
* I couldn't just heal my shields after getting cocky and taking a full load of missiles to the face
http://puu.sh/dKN7b/891aa9e34a.webm
* And landing your shots was a [lethal, rewarding success, which could resolve a fight in a matter of moments
http://puu.sh/dKNge/e160359850.webm
Now? It's a tedious cakewalk, where a player is never punished for being a trash pilot. Where the only time you can die is if you're dedicated to dying due to some bizarre sort of honor-bound logic.
Last edited:
Funny, I don't see it as a broken mechanic at all. The concept of a booster cell that takes up compartment space is perfectly logical.
The only thing possibly wrong is that you can fit so many.
Hopefully FD will stick to their guns with the concept but maybe nerf it a little to one per ship with say a 4 cell charge.
Then you are on step 2, consult what Fronteir wanted out of combat.
Literately what you are describing is the exact opposite of what Frontier wants. Same reason why Yaw is not favored in this title.
I never saw Frontier say that they want combat to be riskless, harmless, skill-less, and devoid of challenge. I have seen them say that they didn't want every fight to end in a death, with the possibility for players to limp away to fight another day. That could happen in beta 1, as well as dying. It's no longer a possibility to limp away, it's an inevitability.
Why remove shield cells? If some ships can have multiple hard points, why can't some have multiple shield cells? Some ships with only 1 Or 2 hard points need multiple shield cells just to trade.
It didn't happen in beta 1
What DID happen was Vipers boom and zooming everyone with Quad Cannon, and anyone not in a Viper was totally unable to retreat unless they logged out. Vipers that took damage by anything else simply flew off until shields came back fully.
Drives where shot out in under three volleys. Same as power planets and anything else targeted.
What did happen was if you went anywhere near Freeport, you where shot. Even inside the station on the pad.
Large ships where at an all time low in effectiveness.
So please don't tell me that limping away happened often in beta 1. If you where not using cannon in a Viper, you where irreverent.
Frontier wanted prolonged engagements, where both players are allowed to make mistakes and can still continue the engagement.
Please do the research. Watch the developer blogs, read the DDA.
Then pop a cell against something that can actually aim, and tell me just how much return you get.
Tl;DR? Beta one was Harmless, risk-less, skill-less and devoid of challenge combat. Cold sniping was everywhere.
Last edited: