Why side with Torval in a slave revolt? The cruisers are more valuable to kill

[Khonsu]

I really, really doubt that enough of a whole planet's slave population consists of former nobles who suddenly decide that slavery isn't good enough for them.

Unlikely that the whole planet are former nobles, but they may still come from more comfortable conditions. A new slave from a wealthy consumer tech world is just as likely to be sent to work in the mines as a new slave from an agricultural world, the big difference: The one from the agricultural world is used to hard labour.

Citizens of a more luxurious society may not be expecting to work in harsh conditions, and may start to regret their decision when they get there.

 

[Drathmar]

Unlikely that the whole planet are former nobles, but they may still come from more comfortable conditions. A new slave from a wealthy consumer tech world is just as likely to be sent to work in the mines as a new slave from an agricultural world, the big difference: The one from the agricultural world is used to hard labour.

Citizens of a more luxurious society may not be expecting to work in harsh conditions, and may start to regret their decision when they get there.

I imagine a lot of merchants who like to gamble on the side would end up slaves.

Or a lot of people who try to be a merchants with the help of investors.

A lot of people who try and start a business of any kind and rely on investors.

 

[Riepah]

Question though: did they know there was something going on elsewhere? I highly doubt.

If they didn't know about a different rebellion happening, but decided to make an uprising anyway, that just sounds even more like the "They're treated worse than the media want you to think"-option, doesn't it?
On the other hand, I assume it would be difficult to hide all TVs and radios and whatnot from all the slaves on a planet, unless GalNet only broadcasts to space stations and not planetside.

 

[Khonsu]

Rebellions also take time to start, they may have been inspired by a rebellion in a neighbouring system, but they need time to gather weapons, plan the takeover, and organise themselves.

Perhaps they just took too long getting ready to rebel, coordinating a rebellion on one world is hard enough, I doubt slaves could plan a multi system rebellion without some serious help.

 

[anikaiful]

If they didn't know about a different rebellion happening, but decided to make an uprising anyway, that just sounds even more like the "They're treated worse than the media want you to think"-option, doesn't it?
On the other hand, I assume it would be difficult to hide all TVs and radios and whatnot from all the slaves on a planet, unless GalNet only broadcasts to space stations and not planetside.

Hmm... I sort of think GalNet is pretty much stations-only (plus spaceports groundside), except in unusual settings. It's a bit like the ages old Text-TV...

 

[Jeeves]

Slaves form a permanent underclass in Imperial society. It's highly unlikely that upward mobility breeds lords with restored honor. And in a vassal society like this one, everything is owned and permitted by the Senators. They have the power to execute anyone they desire, or imprison anyone. They are lords, plain and simple. This is a feudal society, and there's really no sense in thinking that former slaves can become anything more than merchants, middle class.

There is also human cloning which happens in the Empire. Realistically a clone may not be given the rights (or be mentally manipulated to be docile) such that they can escape their bondage. It's not discussed as of yet in the Canon. Those people might never have a choice.

As for debt relief, it's doubtful that some people could escape their debt. What if you drove a Lakon Type-9 with a full cargo of Palladium, and you got interdicted along the way? What if you got your ship blown up but ejected away, and the ship wasn't even yours? Then you're millions of credits in debt to your lord. The amount of money you could make as a slave is tiny, and it would take you several lifetimes to pay the debt off. So your entire family also become slaves. They get bought up and sold away, never to be seen again. Their children have to fulfill the slave contract too, so do their grandchildren. So they are ordered to procreate to make more slaves (their children) to pay off the debt that their grandfather left them. On and on it continues, interest accruing, until maybe a few hundred years in the future, the debt is paid off.

That's entirely possible and realistic considering the Elite Dangerous game world we presently know. There are a whole lot of poor saps out there whose entire family just got sold into slavery because they crashed their bosses ship. That's an awful society, and that's not a place anyone should have to live. No wonder there are slave revolts, if little accidents or business mistakes can doom your family. Or if you're a clone and will never see freedom, having your will to resist sucked out of your skull.

In any case, if Imperial society is as fantastic as it is glamorously described by its apologists, and slavery an option people will gladly accept out of an act of honor, then why would they change their minds? Why see two slave revolts in the blink of an eye? How bad is it really? Could you enslave generations? It's entirely possible, if the debt was bad enough.

 

[nosleepdemon]

Do I actually sense a little bit of righteous indignation in this thread? Are there some folk who would presume to tell a space faring civilization how to run their affairs?

I, personally, find the Empire to be quite agreeable - they always pay their debts!

 

[daan2002]

Do I actually sense a little bit of righteous indignation in this thread? Are there some folk who would presume to tell a space faring civilization how to run their affairs?

I, personally, find the Empire to be quite agreeable - they always pay their debts!

thats what huuumans love to do stick their noses in other peoples business and tell them how to run thing to fit their liking

 

[Drathmar]

Slaves form a permanent underclass in Imperial society. It's highly unlikely that upward mobility breeds lords with restored honor. And in a vassal society like this one, everything is owned and permitted by the Senators. They have the power to execute anyone they desire, or imprison anyone. They are lords, plain and simple. This is a feudal society, and there's really no sense in thinking that former slaves can become anything more than merchants, middle class.

There is also human cloning which happens in the Empire. Realistically a clone may not be given the rights (or be mentally manipulated to be docile) such that they can escape their bondage. It's not discussed as of yet in the Canon. Those people might never have a choice.

As for debt relief, it's doubtful that some people could escape their debt. What if you drove a Lakon Type-9 with a full cargo of Palladium, and you got interdicted along the way? What if you got your ship blown up but ejected away, and the ship wasn't even yours? Then you're millions of credits in debt to your lord. The amount of money you could make as a slave is tiny, and it would take you several lifetimes to pay the debt off. So your entire family also become slaves. They get bought up and sold away, never to be seen again. Their children have to fulfill the slave contract too, so do their grandchildren. So they are ordered to procreate to make more slaves (their children) to pay off the debt that their grandfather left them. On and on it continues, interest accruing, until maybe a few hundred years in the future, the debt is paid off.

That's entirely possible and realistic considering the Elite Dangerous game world we presently know. There are a whole lot of poor saps out there whose entire family just got sold into slavery because they crashed their bosses ship. That's an awful society, and that's not a place anyone should have to live. No wonder there are slave revolts, if little accidents or business mistakes can doom your family. Or if you're a clone and will never see freedom, having your will to resist sucked out of your skull.

In any case, if Imperial society is as fantastic as it is glamorously described by its apologists, and slavery an option people will gladly accept out of an act of honor, then why would they change their minds? Why see two slave revolts in the blink of an eye? How bad is it really? Could you enslave generations? It's entirely possible, if the debt was bad enough.

Why do people revolt throughout history? Are they always in the right.

Hell it could be a matter of pride. The only reason for a revolt is NOT because they are treated badly.

Also nowhere is it even IMPLIED that someone's family is sold into slavery with them. For all we know someone could sell themselves into slavery to save the rest of their family from debt.

Also it might not state but it is heavily implied that you cannot enslave generations. Stop bringing it up without any kind of evidence.

People have given you reason why they might revolt. They might not have realized how hard it was, they could have been egged on by the Federation, it could have to do with politics. Unless FD gives more information you don't know and neither do we, so trying to convince someone not to support Torval who already is at this point is fruitless.

 

[anikaiful]

I, personally, find the Empire to be quite agreeable - they always pay their debts!

Always, regardless of how long it takes.

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thats what huuumans love to do stick their noses in other peoples business and tell them how to run thing to fit their liking

Yea, never understood them species... odd creatures.

 

[Khonsu]

~snip~ The amount of money you could make as a slave is tiny, and it would take you several lifetimes to pay the debt off. So your entire family also become slaves. They get bought up and sold away, never to be seen again. Their children have to fulfill the slave contract too, so do their grandchildren. So they are ordered to procreate to make more slaves (their children) to pay off the debt that their grandfather left them. On and on it continues, interest accruing, until maybe a few hundred years in the future, the debt is paid off.

Please source that, as there is nothing in the lore that suggests that debts are inherited. What is clearly stated though is that by imperial law someone cannot be forced into slavery. So though you may chose to enter slavery to help pay off your fathers debt, it is a choice, no one can force you legally.
(there are always corrupt or terrible people, illegal forcing into slavery may occur, but it would be just that, illegal.)

I suggest you read the page Poy linked (which I will link again here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=7158)

2 things of note from that page I would like to draw your attention to:

1. "An Imperial citizen cannot be forced into slavery; instead they sell themselves into servitude, often as a way of bettering their situation"

2. "Slaves also have a pretty good chance of regaining their freedom, often returning to free society in a better situation then when they left it."

 

[daan2002]

Yea, never understood them species... odd creatures.

but they do have pretty females that only thing they have going for them

 

[IceSerpent]

Well my pilot sees the slaves as the dishonorable ones since they are revolting.

^^ This. It's pretty much the whole reason behind it. A person gets into serious debt, agrees to work it off, then stages an uprising - why would you ever want to side with that person?

 

[Kadius]

In any case, if Imperial society is as fantastic as it is glamorously described by its apologists, and slavery an option people will gladly accept out of an act of honor, then why would they change their minds? Why see two slave revolts in the blink of an eye? How bad is it really? Could you enslave generations? It's entirely possible, if the debt was bad enough.

No where is Imperial slavery described as 'glamorous', in fact its been clearly described with;

"That’s not to say that it’s all sweetness and roses; no one in the Empire wants to be a slave and treatment can vary tremendously from owner to owner. But for the most part, slavery acts as somewhat as a safety net in a society that in many ways is extremely uncaring for an individual’s plight."

All Imperials who agree to subject themselves to Imperial Slavery, find doing so a preferable alternative to homelessness, debt and various other misfortunes.

 

[Jeeves]

Do I actually sense a little bit of righteous indignation in this thread? Are there some folk who would presume to tell a space faring civilization how to run their affairs?

I, personally, find the Empire to be quite agreeable - they always pay their debts!

Of course you do. And do you really think a space faring civilization needs slavery to exist and/or prosper?

Without a background in economic theory I couldn't completely explain it to you, but a social safety net is something that creates a lot of wealth and sustainable economies in First world countries. A pay-it-forward system helps people when they're disadvantaged and then takes from them when they're advantaged. It creates very good economics. Slavery is a bad idea because it's economically a dead-end road. Not to mention it's obviously a moral nightmare, one that, is barbaric to imagine still exists in a space faring society. When food can be produced for nearly nothing, and rich trading is only a few minutes away, a space faring society should be able to care for its own properly, without hardly any effort. The Federation and the Empire both have the same problem. They prop up lavish riches on the backs of poverty. It's just a difference between wage slavery and actual slavery.

If the Empire decided instead to free its slaves, but have them go colonize new stars, and switched to a more technically strong economy like the Federation, they'd instantly grow into the most powerful faction around, by virtue of the amount of population they could move, and the huge economy of scale they would have. That's the smart way for the Empire to play, if you asked me.

As far as I can tell, the Alliance actually has the best arrangement. Similar to the EU in some ways. No abject domination, and no factions getting ahead over the others. Fairest economies, and the smartest also. But they're not really involved in the game yet, so they're kind of a non-contender in current events.

 

[Spaceman Gron]

Do I actually sense a little bit of righteous indignation in this thread? Are there some folk who would presume to tell a space faring civilization how to run their affairs?

I, personally, find the Empire to be quite agreeable - they always pay their debts!

Dude, slavery is a real thing that real people have handled before in real ways. Maybe as an american I'm more sensitive to this stuff, debt slavery is something we did to black people after the civil war over here. But man, if you can't get righteously indignant about slavery what can you get upset about?

 

[Jeeves]

Please source that, as there is nothing in the lore that suggests that debts are inherited. What is clearly stated though is that by imperial law someone cannot be forced into slavery. So though you may chose to enter slavery to help pay off your fathers debt, it is a choice, no one can force you legally.
(there are always corrupt or terrible people, illegal forcing into slavery may occur, but it would be just that, illegal.)

I suggest you read the page Poy linked (which I will link again here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=7158)

2 things of note from that page I would like to draw your attention to:

1. "An Imperial citizen cannot be forced into slavery; instead they sell themselves into servitude, often as a way of bettering their situation"

2. "Slaves also have a pretty good chance of regaining their freedom, often returning to free society in a better situation then when they left it."

Having a pretty good chance to regain your freedom? If very good is 80%+ and pretty good is 65%+, that's still billions of people who will never regain their freedom, or even gain it. Imagine being a human being and never being able to make choices about the trajectory of your own life. Always working under the hand of someone, until you die. Even if that's not the fate of everyone, it will be the fate of some in Imperial society. It's definitely funny watching people try to moralize how they feel about it, but I get that they're going for a RP element here. Just make sure you confirm that you do think like an Imperial, because that's a special brand of crazy.

 

[Kadius]

Dude, slavery is a real thing that real people have handled before in real ways. Maybe as an american I'm more sensitive to this stuff, but debt slavery is something we did to black people after the civil war over here. If you can't get righteously indignant about slavery what can you get upset about?

Mass murder is a real thing that affects real people, in the real world, but most players don't have a problem with it in games. Point being, a fictional take on a real world concept in a fictitious setting, can be given some leeway.

 

[anikaiful]

Mmm, I sort of think that people who take fictional worlds too serious, and without strict cut: "this is fiction", "this is not fiction", have tad bunch of mental problems... it's like... an actor who can't make a difference between act and reality.

Just saying.

 

[Khonsu]

Having a pretty good chance to regain your freedom? If very good is 80%+ and pretty good is 65%+, that's still billions of people who will never regain their freedom, or even gain it.

Please. Source. That.

I understand that real slavery is influencing how you are thinking about this, and I want you to understand that nobody in here in favour of imperial slavery is in favour of REAL slavery. They are different things. Elite has something comparable to real slavery, those are the normal slaves. the kind that are illegal. Even in the Empire.

I personally feel that the option to work for a few years, perhaps even a few decades and return to society is very preferable to being homeless, or starving to death. And faced with the choice of work (even hard or possibly dangerous work) or homelessness, derision, and eventually death from starvation, you bet I would chose Imperial slavery.