So if i hit a planet on FSD engines. with maths!

[HughJanaconda]

LOL there's really no point arguing about a device that does not exist, and the inventors (FD) does not come forward to say how it works

I'm just happy to see/hear possible explanation by other people - what they think the FSD does, and how it would work. For me, as explained in my previous post(s), I think that the drive treats each section of space immediately surrounding the ship as a "frame" and it defines a number or a series of them, then it skips along those frames until the last one, when you arrive at the destination.

In my hypothetical idea, I do not think that the FSD compresses or expands space at all actually. I think it's a new, as yet undiscovered technology, that is at work here that moves you along the "frames".

I'd wager that @DCello thinks there's a point

And on your idea - I like it.

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That's good. We need more mathematicians. But I bet you don't claim that every equation reflects something that actually exists.

Yeah, problem is I was never that great on the maths part. Whoops!

 

[DCello]

You say tomato, I say potato.

Why you are quite welcome!

Some follow-up questions, if I may...

Where did the 9km of space go?! Did the hamster eat it? If I place a 10km long ruler in that space, does it still read 10km at it's end? Or does it say (as you imply) 1km?

Can I have chips with sauce? You made me hungry.

If you are outside a ship with an active FSD drive, your giant rule will read 10km. If you are inside a ship with an active FSD drive, your giant rule will read 10km. The space ain't destroyed, shifted, transformed, teleported, absorbed, transmuted, deconstructed, or eaten by a giant space hamster, it is still there -- but just like 10 meters of road pass in one sec as a blur when you are driving down the road on your Toyota, 10km pass as a blur when you are flying down space lane on your Cobra.

LOL there's really no point arguing about a device that does not exist, and the inventors (FD) does not come forward to say how it works

I'd wager that @DCello thinks there's a point

Definitely! Every physicist back in 1600 would swear by all that was holy that light was omnipresent and instantaneous and that light having "speed" was made up, preposterous, and contrary to the natural order. The point of science is not to say what do not exist, but to say why it does not and how to make it happen - something that a lot of my colleagues forget in the line of duty. So these kind of discussions -- and these kind of dreams, like Arthur C. Clarke, Isaac Asimov, and even George Lucas, Gene Rodenberry, or Braden make up -- are what makes us move forward and push our boundaries further. It's the actual discovery of new ways of interacting with the universe and departures from established ways of thinking that moves the universe, not just natural progression from point A to B. Humans are too linear =P

 

[HughJanaconda]

Can I have chips with sauce? You made me hungry.

If you are outside a ship with an active FSD drive, your giant rule will read 10km. If you are inside a ship with an active FSD drive, your giant rule will read 10km. The space ain't destroyed, shifted, transformed, teleported, absorbed, transmuted, decosntructed, or eaten by a giant space hamster, it is still there -- but just like 10 meters of road pass in one sec as a blur when you are driving down the road on your Toyota, 10km pass as a blur when you are flying down space lane on your Cobra.

That's why I drive a DeLorean, not a Toyota.

 

[Inhumierer]

...made a wind powered vehicle that travels faster than the wind that powers it

Aehm - I go kitesurfing for a decade now - what's so special about this?

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Where did the 9km of space go?! Did the hamster eat it? If I place a 10km long ruler in that space, does it still read 10km at it's end? Or does it say (as you imply) 1km?

BAD MAMSTER! PUNISH HIM!
TBH: As he said, it's complressen. It still reads 10km but is only 1km long. Try think of it as if you washed your shirt too hot. There's still everything, but size "S" now.

 

[Inhumierer]

)… and let’s not get into any relativity or quantum voodoo (but if you want to get into relativity or quantum calculation please do below!).

Didn't see anyone calcuating the energy based on Einstein, and my portion of Einstein is 3 decades ago. But IIRC this is not possible because the energy approaches infinity while speed approaching 1c, both never reaching. Must be some differend kind of drive.

 

[Antichthon]

Aehm - I go kitesurfing for a decade now - what's so special about this?

Whoops. Sorry, you're right. I meant to say dead ​downwind in front of that.

 

[Inhumierer]

Whoops. Sorry, you're right. I meant to say dead ​downwind in front of that.

Ah, I see. Well, this is not possible while kitesurfing, maybe except a few meters when jumping in hi winds. And usually this won't end good :=

 

[HughJanaconda]

BAD MAMSTER! PUNISH HIM!
TBH: As he said, it's complressen. It still reads 10km but is only 1km long. Try think of it as if you washed your shirt too hot. There's still everything, but size "S" now.

And so, if it is compressed - then when I move though it, I get compressed too. It was point I was trying to make to DCello, that is all.
It is sort of nonsense idea, that you can move "out of spacetime" (or over it in a hamster ball, if you like). If space in particular region is compressed, so will you be when you venture there.

 

[Antichthon]

Ah, I see. Well, this is not possible while kitesurfing, maybe except a few meters when jumping in hi winds. And usually this won't end good :=

Look up Rick Cavallaro and the vehicle "Blackbird" if you're interested. It's a fascinating story and a lesson in the importance of empiricism. Blackbird achieved speeds of almost 3 times that of the wind that powered it, while going dead downwind. It can do about the same going dead upwind.

 

[DCello]

And so, if it is compressed - then when I move though it, I get compressed too. It was point I was trying to make to DCello, that is all.
It is sort of nonsense idea, that you can move "out of spacetime". If space in particular region is compressed, so will you be when you venture there.

You seem to completely miss the fact that the thing generating the compression field is moving too. Space isn't compressed and left compressed -- the moment the drive deactivates, it returns to it's normal status.

 

[HughJanaconda]

You seem to completely miss the fact that the thing generating the compression field is moving too. Space isn't compressed and left compressed -- the moment the drive deactivates, it returns to it's normal status.

Facts!! We don't need no stinkin' facts!

Seriously though, the thing generating the compression field is moving, yes?
Is it, then, moving though compressed space?
Y - then it too (ie. the ship) will be compressed, and moves no faster than normal.
N - then it is "normal" space, and moves no faster than normal.

The compression bubble is collapsing!!!

 

[Jim Chapman]

I guess when I saw the name 'Frame Shift Drive' I assumed it was all about the Mach Principle, Frame-dragging, and the like. The (as noted above, made up, wholly crazy) Alcubierre Drive is one way to apply the Mach Principle to build your (made up, wholly crazy) superluminal drive ... but I was imagining the Frame Shift Drive did some other kind of 'Mach Principle' jiggery-pokery. In a hand-wavey kind of way, it was (in my fevered imagination) so arranging matters that you stand still while the universe moves past you very fast. And you side-step relativity by asserting that (1) the universe can move as fast as it likes (2) it's only a frame of reference that's moving faster than light, it's not any information, or physical stuff.

This argument is, of course, complete baloney, but it worked for me

 

[dementia]

So I was hurling through space at an unimaginable speed, many times the speed of light. Strait into a water world I was scanning during my exploration. Emergency stop kicked in. Now my ship was orbiting a beautiful planet in high orbit with only 2% hull damage and not even whiplash. This got me thinking…


Time to get geeky… with maths!!

So let’s pick the lightest ship in the ED arsenal: Sidewinder.
Hull Mass: 25 tonnes (25000kg)

Get some real world numbers:
1 light second (unit of distance) = 299792.458 kilometres, so speed of light in vacuum (1C) = 299792458 m/s (conveniently converts to velocity really easily)… and let’s not get into any relativity or quantum voodoo (but if you want to get into relativity or quantum calculation please do below!).

So, one basic equation:

Kinetic energy = 1/2 mv^2

And now a simple calculation (punching an oversized Ti-84), let’s assume I was still traveling at around 5C because I forgot to slow down.

So my Kinetic Energy would be ½ * 25000 * (5*299792458)^2.
That is: 2.83E+22 Joules of energy or 2.83E+10 Terajoules (TJ).

Now I found this fun number on Wikipedia:
Total energy released from all nuclear testing on Earth (that we know of) since 1996 is: 2.135E+6 TJ
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon_yield)

Just for comparison Hiroshima released somewhere between 54-75 TJ of energy.

So my little Sidewinder has to bleed off equivalent to 13260.32 times the amount of total energy released from all nuclear testing on Earth since 1996. In an instant.

That is enough energy to probably vaporise all water on the planet if my Ship didn’t stop in time (or destroy the planet just like the Death Star from StarWars). This is just a guess now. Someone please run the numbers. How much energy do you need to vaporise all water on earth? (I’m lazy).

Thinking about it some more, releasing that much energy in planets near orbit would probably not end well for the planet as well (especially earth). I wouldn't want that exploding over my head. And that is just a sidewinder moving slowly.

Also thinking about war in space…. No Station or massive flagship could withstand an impact from a sidewinder travelling on FSD engines. Imagine humble FSD missiles.

Anyhow. That is my geekout for the day. Enjoy!

Supercruise in akin to warp drive in Startrek. Your ship isn't moving at all in the local frame but is rather warping space (compression in front, expansion at the rear).

All you did was stop the warping rather suddenly but because it was not a controlled shut down you could argue that there was some shearing forces at play on the hull hence the damage.

Loved the detailed calculations though!

 

[RobotMan]

So I did some digging (I googled and found it in a second). Some one did an in depth write up on how much energy it would take to boil away all the water on earth. Of course they did. (Because internet).
Enjoy

http://scientificlogic.blogspot.com.au/2010/04/how-much-heat-is-needed-to-vaporize.html?m=1

 

[Hadron-Higgs-Boson]

best thread I've read today, in all the moaning and whining about open/solo and the game not being a game its a real pleasure to read something interesting where people are just debating and discussing something in a friendly and informative manner

+REP to all of you

 

[TriumphANT]

Well... there's where my logic fails - time travel - whyever anything traveling faster than C would be doing time travel? Doesn't make sense....

Anything travelling at all is doing time travel, and gravity mucks it up too.

A Sat Nav satellite moves relative to Earth, so its clocks should run 7 microseconds per day faster than our clocks. But the effect of the reduced gravity means that its clocks have to run around 45 microseconds per day slower than our clocks to compensate. Add these together, and the time differential is 38 microseconds per day.

"So what?" you might say. Accuracy of a Sat Nav's clocks needs to be better than 20 nanoseconds. 38 microseconds offset would mean that within one day the Sat Nav clock would result in a positional offset of 10km. Oh yes. Relativity is a pure riot! As your speed tends towards 1C, you actually move through time more quickly. Imagine flying a round trip of a few Lightyears at close to 1C. When you return, more time will have passed for everyone else than passed for you. The closer to the speed of light, the larger the time dilation.

If we work on the assumption that SuperCruising in Frame Shift moves us through HyperSpace in infinitely small but discrete steps, but with our ship moving in real space at normal speed, then we would have the ability to "see" real space as we move. Our clocks run at the same speed as the Space Stations, and we're not going to worry about gravitational effects. Because then we'd go mad.

 

[RobotMan]

If we work on the assumption that SuperCruising in Frame Shift moves us through HyperSpace in infinitely small but discrete steps, but with our ship moving in real space at normal speed, then we would have the ability to "see" real space as we move. Our clocks run at the same speed as the Space Stations, and we're not going to worry about gravitational effects. Because then we'd go mad.

Good Sat Nav info. I tell people about relativity using sat nav example sometimes. Blows peoples minds at parties (they seem to assume it is some sort of theoretical voodoo). Of course then i don't get invited to parties any more.

As for the FSD frames. How many Frames Per Second do you need for a smooth flight? Do you think 1000 years from now people will argue that FSD at 24FPS has a more cinematic feel?

 

[MadArkael]

Thought 1:
I was thinking about the light permeating the bubble of normal space inside your gravitational wake, at first thought I considered seeing things behind you as you would literally be catching light so you could see the light from things directly behind you as you caught it. However, as soon as that light touches normal space inside the wake, would it not stay on the very front of your wake due to not being able to escape as your moving through space faster than we perceive it? So it would never reach your eyes, but that doesn't explain why light travelling toward you wouldn't reach you.

Thought 2:
Does this mean you've effectively built a light accumulator and does this explain how freaking bright objects are when in Frame Shift? But that's completely off base as well as you wouldn't see the light accumulated until they shut down the drive and all that light was allowed to disperse in its original direction.

Thought 3:
I want to be cremated by one of the suns of Alpha Centauri. Hurry up smarter persons than I and find that exotic matter so I can stop playing pretend on the computer and actual inhabit this infinite wasteland.

 

[Kastor]

Okay so there is a theoretical drive that works like this:

Right. The theory is that ALL space has a level of background energy that makes it space. In a vacuum the gap between two fingers held apart is only there because of this background energy. Now corresponding this energy is a equal negative energy. When applied to a given bit of space that bit of space is destroyed. Not compressed, GONE. We say compressed because it's easier to understand and it does seem compressed because the two bits of space either side of it are touched together.

Now after this "compresion" there is a "gap" where there should be space. If you throw energy out of the back of your vessel the space around your vessel slides into that gap (along with your vessel) and the gap you leave behind is filled with space generated by that energy you threw out the back. Do this a lot and you can move faster than light without actual moving at all, in the conventional sense.

At no stage do you pass into a alternate dimension or have the kinetic energy to be anywhere near the speed of light.

To be clear you destroy the bit of space in front of you and recreate it behind you. No space-time bubble. Just a negative energy generator.

Can someone tell me what the name of this drive was. I thought it was the Alcubierre drive but I could be wrong.

 

[TriumphANT]

Good Sat Nav info. I tell people about relativity using sat nav example sometimes. Blows peoples minds at parties (they seem to assume it is some sort of theoretical voodoo). Of course then i don't get invited to parties any more.

As for the FSD frames. How many Frames Per Second do you need for a smooth flight? Do you think 1000 years from now people will argue that FSD at 24FPS has a more cinematic feel?

Obviously, unless Peter Jackson travels at close to 1C on a round trip to Earth, in which case it'll be 48FPS. )

I work and drink with a couple of people with PhDs in Physics, so me trying to bore them with Relativity almost never happens. On the other hand, my head is often seen to explode after 5 minutes of Quantum Chat.