Fer de lance and expected python nerf

[Bertak]

We will see how the changes will work, but the "learn to fly" argument is not fair in my opinion. Even bad pilots will easily hit the python after the changes (even before) regardless of the python's pilot skill , so its defence is mainly based on shield strength.

It's best just to ignore posts with personal insults.

The python is new to me and I have been grinding to outfit it so I haven't spent any time testing out its capabilities. Tonight I spent several hours bounty hunting and I can see why some nerfs are needed. The ship is actually too good. With that said I hope the changes are not too drastic.

 

[remosito]

We will see how the changes will work, but the "learn to fly" argument is not fair in my opinion. Even bad pilots will easily hit the python after the changes (even before) regardless of the python's pilot skill , so its defence is mainly based on shield strength.

we will see indeed.

shield strength it still got ample of. list me the ships which have more shielding than the python post nerf please!

yes, even bad pilots will easily hit the python now. but they will still have to hit her plenty of times. more than almost any other ship. and with the crazy fire power of the python, she won't have to hit them a lot at all. Her defense imo is being able to take quite some hits, and vaporize most threats quite fast. The best defense is a good offense as the saying goes.

 

[remosito]

It's best just to ignore posts with personal insults.

The python is new to me and I have been grinding to outfit it so I haven't spent any time testing out its capabilities. Tonight I spent several hours bounty hunting and I can see why some nerfs are needed. The ship is actually too good. With that said I hope the changes are not too drastic.

seems we agree on the current python being overpowered.

about learning to fly being a personal insult. It is rather a fair assessment of a persons combat capabilities. If somebody were to tell me I have to learn to fly I would readily agree. I am not particularly good.

And requiring an overpowered ship, on which we both agree the python currently is, to not loose. Is the very definition of not being a good pilot and needing to learn to fly.

 

[Aleksej]

To add some facts into the discussion. These are the actual changes proposed to the Python https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=102717&page=5&p=1593196&viewfull=1#post1593196

I've put them in a table and worked out the actual % reduction. As you can see there are some significant changes, esp to speed, pitch and roll. It's also pretty easy to see how new python will fly. Just fit lesser specification thrusters that give pretty much the same reduction as the below and fit a D5 shield to match the shield strength. Make of the below what you will

		From	To	% reduction
Base Shield Health		390	360	7.69
0 Pips to engines
Maximum Speed		160	140	12.50
Max Boosted Speed		280	220	21.43
Max Forward Acceleration		32	30	6.25
Max Retro Acceleration		19	18	5.26
Max Transverse Acceleration		19	16	15.79
MaxPitchRate		30	22	26.67
MaxRollRate		100	90	10.00
4 Pips to engines
Maximum Speed		250	200	20.00
Max Boosted Speed		330	280	15.15
Max Pitch Rate	38	27	28.95

You numbers regarding shields are wrong it is 390 -> 260, which is a reduction by 1/3.

ok so they introduce the FDL and then same as with python ,,,,forum whines reach a roar...and then FDL is nerfed...... they went way overboard on the nerf it will now have crap speed crap turn and a much smaller shield. python had a role...it is a gunship.

now its a targetship


all it needed was a 10% damage reduction and a 5% turn rate

It is a gunship and it will be a gunship. The changes that you are talking about would not even be noticed. Even with 33% reduction of shields Python is not going to be single shot. Reduced manoeuvrability does not affect the effectiveness of its weapons to deal damage. It is still going to deal the same damage within the same amount of time.

 

[Guyperson]

Reduced manoeuvrability does not affect the effectiveness of its weapons to deal damage.

I wouldn't say it's that cut and dry. You can't deal damage to what you can't hit.

 

[TANDKO]

The way some people trying to object the upcoming change with the argument that Python is expensive and should not be balanced sounds a bit strange for me.
Anaconda costs 3 times more yet at the moment it has lower shields much lower speed and worse maneuverability, and only +30% cargo.
Moreover gun placement is worse than Python; Class 4 hard point can give you some benefits only against Type-9 (though I doubt even that) or first time pilot.
Extra Hull strength is pointless because of repair costs and shield cell banks. Anaconda pilot will get bankrupt if he/she tries to fight with a Python pilot relying on hull strength.

So the question is all those people who object Python balance, would you support Anaconda balance as well?
Make it 900t cargo, 1000 base shield, and 250 max speed 333 boost and additional 3x class 3 hard points because it is freaking 3 times more expensive than Python?

 

[Neofactor]

The way some people trying to object the upcoming change with the argument that Python is expensive and should not be balanced sounds a bit strange for me.
Anaconda costs 3 times more yet at the moment it has lower shields much lower speed and worse maneuverability, and only +30% cargo.
Moreover gun placement is worse than Python; Class 4 hard point can give you some benefits only against Type-9 (though I doubt even that) or first time pilot.
Extra Hull strength is pointless because of repair costs and shield cell banks. Anaconda pilot will get bankrupt if he/she tries to fight with a Python pilot relying on hull strength.

So the question is all those people who object Python balance, would you support Anaconda balance as well?
Make it 900t cargo, 1000 base shield, and 250 max speed 333 boost and additional 3x class 3 hard points because it is freaking 3 times more expensive than Python?

Thank you sir. I am grateful there is a voice of reason. I think the ship SHOULD be more powerful than a viper or Cobra.... But at the same time, it doesn't make sense currently. Why is it so maneuverable with more protection than an Anaconda? Every player I've come across that goes on a Noob killing spre has been in a Python and 5 other players aren't enough to take them out. They simple have enough speed, maneuverability, and armor to escape. I would expect that from an Anaconda... But it's a little bit much.

On one occasion, I had 4 dumb-fire missile launchers (which should be called rockets right? As missiles have guidance systems as rockets do not (at least I think thats how it works)) on my cobra (2X class 1 and 2X class 2) and with two full volleys at point blank range I did not break the pythons shields and had to flee the skirmish. I know its well over the cost of my 7 mil cobra but really? I wasn't even the only person firing.

My point being... It's specifications should have minor adjustments made. Nothin Major... But really now.

 

[Aleksej]

You can't but all you need to destroy an Eagle are about 2 seconds of maintained fire. 3-4 seconds for a Sidewinder. Within this time Viper's and Cobra's shields are gone. And that's very little time. I doubt that it is going to be impossible to hit them even with reduced manoeuvrability.

 

[Alpha November]

You can't but all you need to destroy an Eagle are about 2 seconds of maintained fire. 3-4 seconds for a Sidewinder. Within this time Viper's and Cobra's shields are gone. And that's very little time. I doubt that it is going to be impossible to hit them even with reduced manoeuvrability.

Manoeuvrability is king, if you can't bring your guns to bear then you, regardless of your skill, are dead. The Python is too slow to run away, so now it is just another cargo hauler. It was the only larger ship worth taking into combat; I'm glad I had a go in it before it became another trader.

 

[kelticfury]

Manoeuvrability is king, if you can't bring your guns to bear then you, regardless of your skill, are dead. The Python is too slow to run away, so now it is just another cargo hauler. It was the only larger ship worth taking into combat; I'm glad I had a go in it before it became another trader.

Quit pretending there is no way to quickly turn toward an opponent. FA OFF. At least try the damn changes before crying like a kid who just dropped his ice cream.

 

[Defacto]

Manoeuvrability is king, if you can't bring your guns to bear then you, regardless of your skill, are dead. The Python is too slow to run away, so now it is just another cargo hauler. It was the only larger ship worth taking into combat; I'm glad I had a go in it before it became another trader.

Currently the Python doesn't need to be fast to get away.
It's not a combat focused ship.

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

Manoeuvrability is king, if you can't bring your guns to bear then you, regardless of your skill, are dead. The Python is too slow to run away, so now it is just another cargo hauler. It was the only larger ship worth taking into combat; I'm glad I had a go in it before it became another trader.

I do feel if it's forced to use gimbals it will be in trouble; a chaff fit or silent running enemy will basically be immune to you..
want to kill a python? fit duall chaff and fill your boots with his tears, well ok he can probably escape if hes on the ball, but he aint fighting back .

 

[Alpha November]

Quit pretending there is no way to quickly turn toward an opponent. FA OFF. At least try the damn changes before crying like a kid who just dropped his ice cream.

You're too funny. Love you.

 

[Commander Debic]

Originally Posted by Mike Evans Just because a ship can fit on a medium sized pad doesn't make it a medium ship as far as I'm concerned. That's just a bonus given its slimmer profile compared to the boxier traders. If the artists had made the type 7 a little slimmer or what have you they would be allowed to dock at medium pads too. The python has the stats of a large ship, can be heavy like a large ship and has the module customisation of a large ship.

Good answer

Not really, it's a poor answer as if the python is to be considered a large ship alongside the conda and the L9 then it needs the cargo ability doubled and the L7 needs to be re balanced to be a medium ship.
Balancing nearly always involves nerfing with only the very rare occasions when a class is increased. But both nerfing and increasing power is an answer to poor initial development of a model, or Devs pandering to the loudest of the pvp crowd shouting nerf on forums. The best example of this is World of Warcraft where nerfs happen constantly and endlessly, then classes have to be powered up because the original nerfs also become a trigger for loud PVP whiners.
Answer is to leave the ships as they are, and if they are poorly designed then improve your design team or do not release models until they are really well tested and you are sure of their stats. Yes I own a Python after a long and exhaustive trade grind, that I ended up paying 5 million credits more at Jameson memorial because the devs claim the displayed discount wasn't meant to be applied to ships. I will also lose an extra 5 million credits if I part exchange it as the ship has a marker on it that it was discounted even though it wasn't. I have now paid millions of credits out making the ship more agile and stronger only to have wasted those millions on items that will be nerfed down.
I was quite supportive of FD's policy of changing the game over the advertised solo offline debacle, but the 10% founders world discount fault and no reimbursement, the marker that although ticketed has not been addressed as regards the trade in value of the Python, and now these planned nerfs after wasting many credits increasing its power and range leaves a pretty nasty taste about what I used to think was an ethical company.


How about David Braben taking a hand in the Python proposed nerfs and the complete failure of the ticketing system to address the 10% discount error at Jameson memorial. He seems strangely silent on the game these days. Not what I would have expected from the man who's dream it was to bring our original Elite into the present day. DB they are messing around with the game and with the player base. Please intervene and roll a few heads.

 

[Ltd.Dan]

Ive been flying the Python for about a week now and its absolutly great. It is the ship i was realy looking for after a long term of trading in a stupid type 7. It costed me 75mill with a few nice things but nowhere near a real combat setup which i was not planed to do because it costs just TOO much. For me its all about the multiporpose. If u are exclusively a trader u just have too see the python as a stepping stone because there is no such thing as a type 8 for example. U take the python, strip it out for 276+ cargo and u go trading and when u reach 50mill cr u just go on an sell it for the type 9. A type 9 earns 2mill+ more. The python was a gleam of hope after the type 6, ASP (great ship, still best for trading because of high risk) type 7. Clipper? Its not bad but hardpoints are not well positioned imo. FD Dropship? -.-
In the end the python costs more than twice the price of a clipper but is slower and can only hold 40t more and has a lower jumprange. So is it really the best for everything? Definitely not. Not for the huge pricetag.
Is it too strong as a fighter? YES, but in my oppinion thats the result of shield and the "***" shield cell banks. I agree with a bit of a nerf on the shield. 30% sounds huge but ill give it a try an i think its okay in the end. An Anaconda should have more than a python
What really bothers me is the speed reduction. Thats simply wrong. Its just too much. It maneuverability and speed was the reason why a could keep vipers and cobras away from me sitting in my blind spot. If i got them in my sights they better run because i can stick at their ass for couple of seconds and whack the "piiiiieeeep" out of them. Not as long as i want to because vipers especially are FAST. I am talking about OPEN PLAY and fights against cmdrs not against the stupid AI. With the, wait what was it called by sandro, "tad" manuverabillity nerf, its just becoming another trade vessel imo which has brutal firepower, no doubt, but speed kills...It always does...
Can it have some more jumperange than? I mean look at the asp?! I could jump 24,5 lightyears with it fully laden. Or will the running costs be reduced by a high margin? Fuel?

Am i angry about this nerf? Not at all...
BUT i am not satisfied about the route they take. I mean the wings-update is almost there and than the python will be just another, now rediculously easy target. It should take two or three vipers to fight a python easily. It just makes the game more interesting and interactive. Look for mates to fight some big ships! Isnt that the most important thing? Maybe i was wrong and it isnt. If one viper can just sit in ur blindspot forever like it can against an anaconda, well than, goodbye python. I was really looking forward to the wings update but i cant tell my friends to protect me while earn about 700000 bucks -.-. Bounty hunting with other than a viper? Why? Just makes no sense. Cheap, fast, agile, VERY GOOD SHIELD, scb and good firepower. Did i say it was very very cheap to run? U will definely see more vipers than ever because they bounty hunting pros only goal is to earn more than one viper and wait for FDL which will cost 5mill or so? -.-
Whatever. In the end i dont care about this as much as some others cmdrs because there are a couple of nice games out there.
I can just move on...

 

[Vidicus]

I am ok with the nerf... if they add more ships. What I am not ok with is working toward something only to have it taken away or the reward reduced.

 

[McDosy]

For me it's not a question value for money, but of variety. If you make one ship have the best firepower AND the best shields AND the best manoeuvrability then you're really robbing the player of any meaningful choice. Instead of deciding which of those things I value most and tailoring my choice to my play style, I just buy a Python like everyone else because it's the best at everything.

Maintaining that balance is more important to me than the value for money because eventually every player is going to have a surplus of money.

 

[Ltd.Dan]

For me it's not a question value for money, but of variety. If you make one ship have the best firepower AND the best shields AND the best manoeuvrability then you're really robbing the player of any meaningful choice. Instead of deciding which of those things I value most and tailoring my choice to my play style, I just buy a Python like everyone else because it's the best at everything.

Maintaining that balance is more important to me than the value for money because eventually every player is going to have a surplus of money.

But now u have just two choices instead of three if ur amining for a bounty hunting ship?! So only viper and cobra are nice for bounty hunting. I really dont get this argument...ASP is expensive and the python is VERY expensive or way to expensive especially now...
im with u that shields need to be a bit weaker but weaken the manuverability by 17% and more is straight up bad. Why use it anymore for something else than trading? They just should change the role of the ship into trader and yea, thats it...Just another ship u pass as fast as possible to get the real grinding mashines type9 and anaconda...
I really think and im just gonna say it, most of the viper pilots are just a tiny bit jealous because bounty hunting isnt the thing to make good money but more than enough for a viper and a cobra and so what, the viper is good enough to take out the big ships pretty easy..
more to come, have to go

 

[Spiridon]

For 130MCr, I'd expect my ship to be pretty darn good.

There is no need to "balance" everything "in relation to the sidewinder", because the sidewinder (or any other ship for that matter) doesn't cost 130MCr when A-modded. Some cost more, some cost less, and therefore do not need to be balanced to the Python.

Amen to that, brother. "Balancing" is the most idiotic thing in games. If you go through all that trouble to make all that money and purchase high-end stuff, it has to be high-end. Effortlessly obliterating everything entry-level on it's path.

"Hey, I'm in my Sidey and I can't hurt this Python! Nerf it, please!" You're damn right you can't hurt it. Go make hundreds and hundreds of millions, put an effort there, grind & bear it, and equip yourself right.

It's like "look, this Bentley and H2 are overpowered, let's bring them down to starters VW Polo". Devs, don't to it.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Amen to that, brother. "Balancing" is the most idiotic thing in games. If you go through all that trouble to make all that money and purchase high-end stuff, it has to be high-end. Effortlessly obliterating everything entry-level on it's path.

"Hey, I'm in my Sidey and I can't hurt this Python! Nerf it, please!" You're damn right you can't hurt it. Go make hundreds and hundreds of millions, put an effort there, grind & bear it, and equip yourself right.

It's like "look, this Bentley and H2 are overpowered, let's bring them down to starters VW Polo". Devs, don't to it.

You seem to think that whatever it is you buy it should kill lots of other stuff because it is expensive, regardless of context. I am afraid you are going to discover the game you want is not the game the devs want to make. Ships in Elite are not one-dimensional constructs, with cheapest=worst at everything, most expensive=best at everything.