Please fix the Alt F4 exploit

[Tau Ceti]

So, if everything you just said is true and you rarely every PvP in this game then the issue of combat logging does not effect you. Since we have gotten that out of the way, why are you posting in this thread?

Ah, but changes to the game DO affect me. That is the crux of the problem, by trying to stop combat logging in Open you may be affecting players in unrelated ways, for all the reasons already mentioned.

There seems to be a general agreement that no-one should tell someone else if or how they should play in Open or Solo (although there are still some that seem confused by the choice of modes).

I may not combat log but that doesn't mean I should lose the option to do so.

Everyone will have their own definition of what is, or not, acceptable gameplay.
If a wing of goon pythons interdicted me and I am in a full Type 9 I might feel quite justified in using any means to evade them, including logging out. If I was in a combat ship or a hauler or if I started the fight then I might think it unacceptable to log. I also accept other players may not agree and would make different decisions for themselves.

Now, some would say "don't play in Open, then" but that assumes Open is only for PvP, which is not the case from my experience so far. Of course, by playing in Open I accept the risk I might get interdicted by a player but (to me) that is not the same as consenting to an unfair PvP fight to the death.

My values may not be the same as yours. It would be wrong of me and bad for the game to force my values on you and vice-versa. The game designers have catered for varied gameplay and players by giving us choices including the ability to group ourselves with players who share similar values when we want to, and move freely in and out of Open play when we may encounter players with a different set of values to our own.

Devs will constantly rebalance the game, they may even find a way to stop or deter combat logging (or may consider the current reporting provision sufficient), but it is unrealistic to expect them to change the core design of the game.

 

[Ammo7]

Maybe he gets his enjoyment from laughing when he f4s. He's paid for the game to. He has just as much right to play this way as you. Suck it up.

Yeah what he said

 

[Jex =TE=]

Keep on trollin, bro.

Hey I just put him on my ignore list! Seems you can do it here as well as in game lol.

 

[Knorlac]

maybe his dinner was ready

Sure...and he must be a fast eater as well, as I spotted again him only a few minutes later..with his bounty paid.

 

[Cathalo]

Ah, but changes to the game DO affect me. That is the crux of the problem, by trying to stop combat logging in Open you may be affecting players in unrelated ways, for all the reasons already mentioned.

There seems to be a general agreement that no-one should tell someone else if or how they should play in Open or Solo (although there are still some that seem confused by the choice of modes).

I may not combat log but that doesn't mean I should lose the option to do so.

Everyone will have their own definition of what is, or not, acceptable gameplay.
If a wing of goon pythons interdicted me and I am in a full Type 9 I might feel quite justified in using any means to evade them, including logging out. If I was in a combat ship or a hauler or if I started the fight then I might think it unacceptable to log. I also accept other players may not agree and would make different decisions for themselves.

Now, some would say "don't play in Open, then" but that assumes Open is only for PvP, which is not the case from my experience so far. Of course, by playing in Open I accept the risk I might get interdicted by a player but (to me) that is not the same as consenting to an unfair PvP fight to the death.

My values may not be the same as yours. It would be wrong of me and bad for the game to force my values on you and vice-versa. The game designers have catered for varied gameplay and players by giving us choices including the ability to group ourselves with players who share similar values when we want to, and move freely in and out of Open play when we may encounter players with a different set of values to our own.

Devs will constantly rebalance the game, they may even find a way to stop or deter combat logging (or may consider the current reporting provision sufficient), but it is unrealistic to expect them to change the core design of the game.

The potential changes only effect you if A) You currently use combat logging to avoid PvP death, or B) You have been griefed by other players who log out of combat.

Which one of these are you? I don't care about the situation or what ship attacks you or how many of them there were or how expensive your ship is. If you play open mode and you log out of combat then you're exploiting the game. Period. You can say PvP isn't fair, and I will agree with you. PvP is seldom ever a fair fight, generally one side will always have some sort of advantage over the other side. That still doesn't give you the right to use exploits like combat logging to avoid death. You may as well use speed hacks and teleport hacks as well if you're going to do that, because in the end they are all the same thing. Cheating. If you don't like it, wait for Wings expansion and team up with like minded folks, or play solo or play group mode. Those are your options.

 

[Ammo7]

those people should just play solo then.

Why I paid for the game just like you I should be able to play anyway I see fit, I like seeing other players on-line playing so I play open. there should be an ignore list so you can block out the players that like to play dirty and PVP the honest player, Now if you have a bounty on your head well so be it you are open for attack.

 

[Rivka]

I disagree with the low double digits being needed, because you have to assume that there will be some players who will not report it. If a player gets reported 3 times for combat logging, he's probably done it close to 5 or 6 times and only half the players took the time to report him for it. I think after the player gets reported 3 times they should at least receive a warning from FD that states clearly "You have received a warning for dishonorable gameplay, if you continue you will be placed in solo mode".

I could go with that, so long as there were some GM "eyes on" just to verify that it's occurring, or the telemetry I mentioned before. I suppose I might just be all super paranoid from my time in Eve, but people would go to outlandish places to get someone "out of the game". I could just see a bunch of whining PvP averse people using that type of reporting as a "weapon" to get rid of a successful pirate type.

I'd say the "investigation" for lack a better term should start with player reports, but it should take a little more than that (outside of really obvious cases, like admitting to doing it on the forums) to actually have action taken against an account.

 

[Jex =TE=]

Ah, but changes to the game DO affect me. That is the crux of the problem, by trying to stop combat logging in Open you may be affecting players in unrelated ways, for all the reasons already mentioned.

There seems to be a general agreement that no-one should tell someone else if or how they should play in Open or Solo (although there are still some that seem confused by the choice of modes).

I may not combat log but that doesn't mean I should lose the option to do so.

Everyone will have their own definition of what is, or not, acceptable gameplay.
If a wing of goon pythons interdicted me and I am in a full Type 9 I might feel quite justified in using any means to evade them, including logging out. If I was in a combat ship or a hauler or if I started the fight then I might think it unacceptable to log. I also accept other players may not agree and would make different decisions for themselves.

Now, some would say "don't play in Open, then" but that assumes Open is only for PvP, which is not the case from my experience so far. Of course, by playing in Open I accept the risk I might get interdicted by a player but (to me) that is not the same as consenting to an unfair PvP fight to the death.

My values may not be the same as yours. It would be wrong of me and bad for the game to force my values on you and vice-versa. The game designers have catered for varied gameplay and players by giving us choices including the ability to group ourselves with players who share similar values when we want to, and move freely in and out of Open play when we may encounter players with a different set of values to our own.

Devs will constantly rebalance the game, they may even find a way to stop or deter combat logging (or may consider the current reporting provision sufficient), but it is unrealistic to expect them to change the core design of the game.

Your mistake is thinking that combat logging is part of the game.

It's as much of the "game" in the same way "kicking the chess table over" is when you're about to lose. In both instances, the act is pathetic.

 

[SvennoJ]

Instead of complaining about combat logging and ask for changes to be made, why don't you start an honorable pvp group. Like Mobius for pve, start one for pvp with strict rules on behavior. Leave the combat loggers, ram happy and station campers behind.

 

[Tau Ceti]

The potential changes only effect you if A) You currently use combat logging to avoid PvP death, or B) You have been griefed by other players who log out of combat.

Which one of these are you? I don't care about the situation or what ship attacks you or how many of them there were or how expensive your ship is. If you play open mode and you log out of combat then you're exploiting the game. Period. You can say PvP isn't fair, and I will agree with you. PvP is seldom ever a fair fight, generally one side will always have some sort of advantage over the other side. That still doesn't give you the right to use exploits like combat logging to avoid death. You may as well use speed hacks and teleport hacks as well if you're going to do that, because in the end they are all the same thing. Cheating. If you don't like it, wait for Wings expansion and team up with like minded folks, or play solo or play group mode. Those are your options.

That is exactly my point. What you consider cheating may not be what I consider cheating, so proposing changes that fixes cheating according to your values may impact my game adversely.

You may believe there is a universal definition of cheating, and you may be right, but at then end of the day the ONLY opinion that counts is the FD design team. If the Devs consider it cheating then they have made it clear they will impose consequences (even if they can't close the loophole).

Do you accept that?

 

[Cathalo]

Your mistake is thinking that combat logging is part of the game.

It's as much of the "game" in the same way "kicking the chess table over" is when you're about to lose. In both instances, the act is pathetic.

Bingo, this poster gets it!

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

That is exactly my point. What you consider cheating may not be what I consider cheating, so proposing changes that fixes cheating according to your values may impact my game adversely.

You may believe there is a universal definition of cheating, and you may be right, but at then end of the day the ONLY opinion that counts is the FD design team. If the Devs consider it cheating then they have made it clear they will impose consequences (even if they can't close the loophole).

Do you accept that?

I accept that something will be done to deter combat logging. How it will be done I cannot say. But no successful online game to date has ever allowed players to simply escape combat at will with no consequence. It is my opinion that FD knows that this is an issue but due to technical reasons they cannot fix it the way they want to at this time. So, it is up to the players themselves to police it for the time being. I have suggested many times to many open players that they simply report those who drop out of combat on them and I will continue doing this myself, in the hopes that maybe FD can put repeat offenders in the penalty box.

 

[Witzo]

Please fix the Alt F4 exploit

I don't think Microsoft is going to change the basis features of its operating system.

 

[SuperkewL]

Instead of complaining about combat logging and ask for changes to be made, why don't you start an honorable pvp group. Like Mobius for pve, start one for pvp with strict rules on behavior. Leave the combat loggers, ram happy and station campers behind.

THat is an excellent idea

 

[Tau Ceti]

I accept that something will be done to deter combat logging. How it will be done I cannot say. But no successful online game to date has ever allowed players to simply escape combat at will with no consequence. It is my opinion that FD knows that this is an issue but due to technical reasons they cannot fix it the way they want to at this time. So, it is up to the players themselves to police it for the time being. I have suggested many times to many open players that they simply report those who drop out of combat on them and I will continue doing this myself, in the hopes that maybe FD can put repeat offenders in the penalty box.

That appears to be the correct response (at least to me). Seems we agree after all.

 

[SKudder]

Is this your first online game? If so, then welcome to online gaming. If it isn't, then please list me some of the major titles that you have played where being disconnected while in combat (even through no fault of your own) was not punished by death. In EvE the costs for dying are just as high if not higher than they are in this game, yet if you break connection during combat you will die 99% of the time even if it is a random hardware failure. This is to keep people from exploiting the game to avoid death.

Atleast this game is forgiving though, atleast FD built in a solo and group mode for people who can't handle it. EvE is just one server, and everyone plays by the same cut throat rules.

In the MMOs I know (WoW, GW2, SWTOR, Rift, TESO, TSW, ...) there are nearly no or absolutely no consequences when your character dies. In the worst case you have to repair your armor for some bucks. Thats it. The players don't have a reason to combat log. The reason for combat logging is the loss of money (espacially for traders). When FD would reduce this penalty people would stop combat logging IMHO.

Another solution could be to separate those who want PvP from the others in open mode:

When choosing open mode you must decide if you want PvP or not. After that you are put in an instance with people with the same selection. People without PvP can not be shot by other players.

 

[INSTG8R]

Oh look it's the same thread as yesterday....

 

[Knorlac]

And again....

Spotted a wanted CMDR from far away and got on his heels. When I was finally closing in, he dropped out of supercruise in the middle of nowhere. Mhm, maybe he went to investigate a USS. So, should I follow him in or wait here in case whatever he's up to won't take him long? My intuition tells me that I should wait a while and sure enough he reemerges right infront of my ship. I act fast and get into position to interdict him before he can pick up speed...he doesn't put up much of a fight but still refuses to power down. Eventually we're both jerked out of supercruise and with a cursory glace at my hull integrity, I immediately deploy my hardpoints and chase after the fleeing perp. With all energy diverted to engines and just enough to keep my autocannons operating I slowly gain on him and after the 3rd use of my afterburner I get into weapons range, setting the subtarget to thrusters. A lot of shots miss the relatively narrow silhuette of his Cobra III but after a few seconds the familiar voice of my shipcomputer tells me that his shields have collapsed. Now I can't let him out of my sights before he has a chance to jump.........and snip: He disconnects.

Another anticlimatic and frustrating end of what could've been a thrilling experience.

 

[Sanpaku Jones]

Someone asked how this is handled in EVE:

If you're not in dock and you drop game, Alt-F4, lose connection, your hair catches on fire -- any of these -- and your ship simply fails to despawn for a surprisingly excruciating period of time, while it's still viable as a target. Nothing fancy really.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Then what you may be saying is that something like PvP flags are the answer. I get that. But as the game allows PvP, and it IS an interesting option, there should be a way for both crowds to be pleased.

Question for you: If that's you who doesn't want to be forced into combat, I am guessing you don't play Solo because that cuts off the community aspects of the game?

 

[SKudder]

Then what you may be saying is that something like PvP flags are the answer. I get that. But as the game allows PvP, and it IS an interesting option, there should be a way for both crowds to be pleased.

Question for you: If that's you who doesn't want to be forced into combat, I am guessing you don't play Solo because that cuts off the community aspects of the game?

I actually play solo because I don't like PvP, but I would play open in a mode without PvP because of the community aspects. I only want to be forced in combat by NPCs. This also is a common model in most MMOs.

 

[Drakkir]

I actually play solo because I don't like PvP, but I would play open in a mode without PvP because of the community aspects. I only want to be forced in combat by NPCs. This also is a common model in most MMOs.

Good point, maybe the pvp flags idea would be the best way to go. Would even be cool to be "non-pvp flagged" and then some pvp flagged person try to attack you and you take no damage since you are non-pvp (like wow, etc..) they can attack all they want but you in essence have "god mode on" from pvp damage while in non-pvp state.