Fundamentally unrealistic

[Hamerstein]

I was listening to the most-recent LAVE RADIO podcast (great work gang!) when they were discussing external views and how they'd break the realism of the world. (I disagree that it would break the world and would love to be able to admire my own ship externally.)

That made me think that there is a fundamental lapse of realism in the game, from the very beginning of Elite: Dangerous.

It is absolutely not realistic that you would be given a ship -- even a lowly Sidewinder -- without SOME training. More training that the game provides in the tutorials and in the manual. Imagine how much it costs in-game to build a station... Do you think they would let a greenhorn pilot anywhere near that?

Think about the amount of training (out-of-game) we receive to be allowed to drive an automobile. And that doesn't go at light speeds or float in space. Compare that to an in-game space craft. The lack of in-game training is very unrealistic.

The derived thinking isn't really applicable.

FD have never claimed that 3rd person views don't exist because of break in realism, players have argued that point but not FD themselves. According to FD we don't have 3rd person because they didn't want to design ED that way - presumably because they wanted to promote a certain style of play and having 1st person for general flying was the best for that (my assumption, but not an unreasonable one).

That extends to other things in game that aren't realistic, they are done the way they are done because that's the way FD wanted the game to play, not to cater (or not cater) to individual player preferences.

 

[Firedshot]

Can i have some reversing cameras? I think external views would be good providing the camera view is attached to the ship.

On flight training when cars first came out there were no driving licenses. In some country's there are none or very little trainning so in that respect while there might be some that would be ie a trader or system secruity I don't think a pirate would?

 

[Zenicetus]

No, I am commenting that something like an EXTERNAL VIEW, which many people (myself included) seem to want, cannot break realism any more than it's been broken already. External cameras are a conceit to modern audiences. I agree that they should be toggle-able so those that do not want them do not have to see them, but let the player make the decision.

This is not a rant about the external camera. It is about realism and external camera is an example.

Do you get an external view when you're driving your car, or in a driver's ed class? Do you get an external view when you're trained to fly a Cessna and then progress to larger and faster planes? All these vehicles are designed to be operated a certain way, and you train from the operator position, not from an outside God's eye view.

There are good reasons to want an external view just for taking some beauty shots of our ships in some limited way (probably a camera drone, eventually), but I don't see a need for an external view for training. I seriously doubt FD will ever allow actually flying the ships from a 3rd person view. They seem to want this to be a completely in-cockpit experience as long as the ship is actually flying (and again, when it's not, we might get a camera drone). So that eliminates the need for an external view just for training (IMO).

 

[blacky75]

I was listening to the most-recent LAVE RADIO podcast (great work gang!) when they were discussing external views and how they'd break the realism of the world. (I disagree that it would break the world and would love to be able to admire my own ship externally.)

That made me think that there is a fundamental lapse of realism in the game, from the very beginning of Elite: Dangerous.

It is absolutely not realistic that you would be given a ship -- even a lowly Sidewinder -- without SOME training. More training that the game provides in the tutorials and in the manual. Imagine how much it costs in-game to build a station... Do you think they would let a greenhorn pilot anywhere near that?

Think about the amount of training (out-of-game) we receive to be allowed to drive an automobile. And that doesn't go at light speeds or float in space. Compare that to an in-game space craft. The lack of in-game training is very unrealistic.

The realistic game you're aiming at... is just still over 100 years far away yet ^^ Nothing is realistic, as long as you don't live it

 

[Valan]

Do you get an external view when you're driving your car.

Yes parking cameras are pretty standard, ships have external cameras for docking as do other industrial vehicles.

How are camera's placed around the ship unrealistic?

The EVE solution of camera drones is daft. If I wanted to take a Titan down I would have tiny killer drones attacking the camera drones until he ran out then he would be blind. Why bother attacking the Titan?

 

[fademist]

Yes parking cameras are pretty standard, ships have external cameras for docking as do other industrial vehicles.

How are camera's placed around the ship unrealistic?

The EVE solution of camera drones is daft. If I wanted to take a Titan down I would have tiny killer drones attacking the camera drones until he ran out then he would be blind. Why bother attacking the Titan?

so u have parking cameras on ur car...
and what camera on eve titans have? lol

 

[Hikokage]

Outside views are fine in my opinion as long as they don't break immersion. There should be a panel showing the external view. Like the other panels we have right now. You could use a utility slot to mount a camera but you have to remind yourself to pull the camera back in or it will break when something hits it.
The same goes for drones. They could fly behind or beside you. If you want to enter sc or hs they have to be pulled in or they will be left behind and you have to buy a new one.
If you want to have external views while in combat, you'd better have lots of cash to spend.

This way we could have our external views and still have the immersion we have now.

 

[ScottGust]

Its soooo unrealistic!! Space is not made of pixels!!
Bah!

 

[Valan]

so u have parking cameras on ur car...
and what camera on eve titans have? lol

Well that's the nonsense of it, arguing realistic in a game. Most modern cars having parking cameras giving additional views. But apparently in the futuristic ED universe cameras haven't been invented lol We skipped the pinhole camera and went straight to space travel.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

There's a factory ship called GSV Another Fine Product From The Nonsense Factory just near LHS 3447 that churns out 100 Sidewinders an hour.

The Elite Universe works on a "punishment for anything is death" principle, so it's quite happy for any amount of pilots to fly out in a ship worth pennies to it and free to the Commander without any training or education.

Those that survive add to the economy / war effort etc., and those that don't? Well, there's plenty of free Sidewinders ready for more new meat...

+rep for the Culture reference. I also got your post - thanks for the grin

 

[fademist]

Well that's the nonsense of it, arguing realistic in a game. Most modern cars having parking cameras giving additional views. But apparently in the futuristic ED universe cameras haven't been invented lol We skipped the pinhole camera and went straight to space travel.

the new cars maybe they have but not all the ppl have new some have old ;p

 

[xslam]

No. Get back in eve instead, and buy well trained character for $1000.

 

[Winterwalker]

SUE CRIPPLE & SNEER

SOLICITORS

Windrush Tower. Olympus Village. Mars. Sol System. 0/0S04 OLI

YOUR REFERENCE: SCS / CPJ-4.1
J.Jameson Jnr OUR REFERENCE: CPJ / JJJ-4.1
51a South Dormitory
Fish Processing Plant 3142
Sirocco
Merlin
Ross 154
-1/0Rs2a S16
31.12.3199

To whom it may concern

It is our duty to inform you of the death of your grandfather, Commander
Peter Jameson.

The wreckage of his ship was found in the Reidquat system on 11 November
3199. He was presumed killed in combat after a "misunderstanding" over
some stolen goods according to the local press.

A last will and testament was prepared on 3 February 3199 and section 4.1
has been circulated to all living grandchildren as instructed by our late
client.

If you have any queries do not hesitate to contact us. The normal fees of
fifty (50) Credits per hour (including service tax) apply.

Yours sincerely

Mr Edmond Sneer

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last Will & Testament

Commander Peter Jameson Section 4.1

A way of life that is very different to the dull planet bound existence you
have probably led up to now. It is a way of life that I loved and want you
to experience.

I want you to feel the freedom of flying your own ship and being able to
explore the vast galaxy. Whatever your aims in life (I settled for wealth
power and fame) there is an occupation for you. Try your hand at trading,
following established trading routes or making your own. May be doing odd
jobs is more your style buzzing from one place to the next, never working
for the same person twice. What about mining? Later perhaps.

I know that some of you will succumb to a criminal existance, so I may as
well say that piracy, bounty hunting and mercenary work will suit you.

I won`t tell you to place your allegiance with the Federation, the Empire
or the Indepandents but be careful they all use you for their own aims. No
amount of treaties will change the fact that they dislike each other

Space has changed a great deal since I was your age. No I am not going to
harp on about everything being cheaper and friendlier in the past. People
were just as bad then as now but we now have better technology and humans
have spread further so there is more scope. Your abilities as a pilot will
be tested to the full, especially in combat so before you upset anybody get
in some practice.

I want to give you the best start I can. As there are now so many of you
my resources have been spread thinly. Each of you will receive an Eagle
Long Range Fighter and one hundred credits. The ship has been delivered to
your local starport but the documents are enclosed with this letter

Above all enjoy yourself and BE WARY!

Mortal Press 2/2TX4-LWT

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

extracted from Frontier Elite 2 Manual

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Do you get an external view when you're driving your car, or in a driver's ed class? Do you get an external view when you're trained to fly a Cessna and then progress to larger and faster planes? All these vehicles are designed to be operated a certain way, and you train from the operator position, not from an outside God's eye view.

In real life you do not get an external view (unless of course you go to the trouble of buying a quadcopter which can send live video back to you).

However, ED is not real life. It's a game. I pay for an arrangement of 1's and 0's and download those on my computer, and the computer knows to use them in such a way that I can play a game with it.

This is why I think your argument breaks down. You cannot use "we don't have external views in real life" as an argument for not having them - in a game.

 

[Avnas]

I was listening to the most-recent LAVE RADIO podcast (great work gang!) when they were discussing external views and how they'd break the realism of the world. (I disagree that it would break the world and would love to be able to admire my own ship externally.)

That made me think that there is a fundamental lapse of realism in the game, from the very beginning of Elite: Dangerous.

It is absolutely not realistic that you would be given a ship -- even a lowly Sidewinder -- without SOME training. More training that the game provides in the tutorials and in the manual. Imagine how much it costs in-game to build a station... Do you think they would let a greenhorn pilot anywhere near that?

Think about the amount of training (out-of-game) we receive to be allowed to drive an automobile. And that doesn't go at light speeds or float in space. Compare that to an in-game space craft. The lack of in-game training is very unrealistic.

its just a rent-a-car

 

[bassman]

I was listening to the most-recent LAVE RADIO podcast (great work gang!) when they were discussing external views and how they'd break the realism of the world. (I disagree that it would break the world and would love to be able to admire my own ship externally.)

That made me think that there is a fundamental lapse of realism in the game, from the very beginning of Elite: Dangerous.

It is absolutely not realistic that you would be given a ship -- even a lowly Sidewinder -- without SOME training. More training that the game provides in the tutorials and in the manual. Imagine how much it costs in-game to build a station... Do you think they would let a greenhorn pilot anywhere near that?

Think about the amount of training (out-of-game) we receive to be allowed to drive an automobile. And that doesn't go at light speeds or float in space. Compare that to an in-game space craft. The lack of in-game training is very unrealistic.

Yeah but its no different than even hard core flight sims, I mean what are the odds I could get a real F16 into the air and keep it there after half an hour reading a manual even though I managed it in falcon 4.

 

[Skip Intro]

In real life you do not get an external view (unless of course you go to the trouble of buying a quadcopter which can send live video back to you).

However, ED is not real life. It's a game. I pay for an arrangement of 1's and 0's and download those on my computer, and the computer knows to use them in such a way that I can play a game with it.

This is why I think your argument breaks down. You cannot use "we don't have external views in real life" as an argument for not having them - in a game.

There are lots of driving games that allow an external view as well as one from the driver's seat.

You could have a 'camera view' fixed to look from just above the rear of your ship, facing forward that would not give you a 360^o view in combat and confer no advantage, I think.

 

[Gingerwig]

I was listening to the most-recent LAVE RADIO podcast (great work gang!) when they were discussing external views and how they'd break the realism of the world. (I disagree that it would break the world and would love to be able to admire my own ship externally.)

That made me think that there is a fundamental lapse of realism in the game, from the very beginning of Elite: Dangerous.

It is absolutely not realistic that you would be given a ship -- even a lowly Sidewinder -- without SOME training. More training that the game provides in the tutorials and in the manual. Imagine how much it costs in-game to build a station... Do you think they would let a greenhorn pilot anywhere near that?

Think about the amount of training (out-of-game) we receive to be allowed to drive an automobile. And that doesn't go at light speeds or float in space. Compare that to an in-game space craft. The lack of in-game training is very unrealistic.

In a game with faster than light travel, you think not having training to fly your ship breaks reality?

 

[Zenicetus]

Yes parking cameras are pretty standard, ships have external cameras for docking as do other industrial vehicles.

Parking cameras on cars and cameras on ships are not a 3rd person external view. They're just more windows opened up around the shell of the vehicle.

Camera drone UAVs are probably in the works for things like large ships, cranes, and other industrial uses, but it will probably be a while before you're buzzing down the highway surrounded by camera drones for a nice external view of your car.


Anyway, it's a question of design decisions made by Frontier. They want us in our cockpit, or we'd have external views by now. We'll probably get some kind of limited outside view eventually, if nothing else to help sell those skins in the shop. But I think it's unlikely it will be anything involving actually flying our ships. I could be wrong; just going by past FDEV statements on that.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Parking cameras on cars and cameras on ships are not a 3rd person external view. They're just more windows opened up around the shell of the vehicle.

Camera drone UAVs are probably in the works for things like large ships, cranes, and other industrial uses, but it will probably be a while before you're buzzing down the highway surrounded by camera drones for a nice external view of your car.


Anyway, it's a question of design decisions made by Frontier. They want us in our cockpit, or we'd have external views by now. We'll probably get some kind of limited outside view eventually, if nothing else to help sell those skins in the shop. But I think it's unlikely it will be anything involving actually flying our ships. I could be wrong; just going by past FDEV statements on that.

I've just stated this in another thread...

I can picture in my mind's eye trying to fly a Cobra purely on complete-freedom external view during an intense battle with many other ships present. It would be impractical to do so - you must be in the cockpit to do battle. Even with one ship it'd be impractical to try and win a battle using an external view.

Try it - run that movie in your head - picture a Cobra (or viper or whatever), now picture that free-form external view, now picture trying to use that to fight another ship which can be anywhere around you in a giant spherical radius relative to your ship.

It simply doesn't matter if you have a free-form external view. You'd have to somehow control that view whilst simultaneously control your ship, your power management, weapons control, etc. By default, external views are inherently useless during battles due to how ship flight, control, and power management works .