Design 101 - Players must ALWAYS have choice to avoid or run instead of fight

[Oddball_E8]

You can keep repeating that all you want but real pirates are doing fine. Not saying things don't need adjusting but skilled pilots are making it work. In my brief bounty hunting career (pre 1.1 so might not work now) I just learned to shoot straight with rail guns and cannons.

Seemed a lot quicker and more fun than coming here and bending devs ears.

It's nice of you to decide who is and is not a "real" pirate.
But if you take a closer look, you'll notice that most of those "real" pirates are former traders who have kitted out an Asp or Python with millions of credits worth of hard-hitting weaponry to do it as a hobby.
It's not about skill, it's about bank-accounts then.

No, it doesn't matter how skilled you are, nobody is going to bring down a player controled Trader in 7-10 seconds from interdiction to jump in a Viper or a Cobra.
That's just not going to happen.

Alot of people around here seem to be of the mind that pirates should only be able to take on targets if they're in vastly expensive ships that would require you to do trading to reach.
Apparantly, Piracy is not supposed to be a viable career path from the start, it's something you might "branch into" at a later stage.

Which is total .

 

[Joe Spivey]

I see plenty of people trying to prevent the debate from happening.
Including you with your fear-mongering "everyone will just go solo" type statements.

Again, please stop putting words in my mouth. I have never said that "everyone will just go solo". I have intimated that more and more will follow the growing trend of dissatisfied traders moving to Solo or Group play but to say that 'everyone' will go to one or the other is obviously false and your assertion that I am fear mongering on that basis is simply a straw man argument.

The observation that, in your words "I see plenty of people trying to prevent the debate from happening" is not a justification for joining them.

Your posts in response to mine and others are taking on a more and more ad hominem nature and an increasing aggressive tone whilst moving further and further from the main topic. I hope the mods are taking note of this.

 

[Oddball_E8]

Again, please stop putting words in my mouth. I have never said that "everyone will just go solo". I have intimated that more and more will follow the growing trend of dissatisfied traders moving to Solo or Group play but to say that 'everyone' will go to one or the other is obviously false and your assertion that I am fear mongering on that basis is simply a straw man argument.

The observation that, in your words "I see plenty of people trying to prevent the debate from happening" is not a justification for joining them.

Your posts in response to mine and others are taking on a more and more ad hominem nature and an increasing aggressive tone whilst moving further and further from the main topic. I hope the mods are taking note of this.

I seem to remember you saying that most will go solo...
Right, here it is:

Of course trading will still be on the top of the list, because most of them will be in Group or Solo play.

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What you need to become a Pirate in the real world:



What traders consider "fair" to become a pirate in Elite Dangerous (#getabiggership):

 

[Sim Maker]

I see plenty of people trying to prevent the debate from happening.
Including you with your fear-mongering "everyone will just go solo" type statements.

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They didn't, but who is saying that they should not be allowed to interdict player traders in an open world PvP enviroment?
Because that's what I'm hearing alot here.

Oddball....it is not fear-mongering...it is stone cold fact......
...
I don't play open because of mechanics like this.....You can see 4-5 new threads a day from people saying "I quit because of interdictions"....be they NPC or PvP InterDs.................and thats just the people who could be bothered to make it to this forum, AND make an account, AND suffer the inevitable hassle they get for posting their Good-Bye......
...
You can dismiss them as each new player gives up, but thats the reality........not fear mongering...truth.....peeople are leaving open, and even the game itself now that Interdictions are 1, Out of control for NPCs.....2. "Pirates" now making demands that the game be changed so that THEY can shoot traders.......which results in 90% "MDK" in this warped game universe they made..........where MDK gets a fine that can be paid off, but you get a MDK by cop.......for scratching a Miners ship whlie saving his life.........
...

Why don't you follow the trader to destination?> get them as they approach the station? they cant run then...or as a "Pirate" are you affraid fo getting a station fine? Ooooh ....big bad pirate.........at least then the trader has a chance to run for the door.........you stop them out in space, its shooting fish in a barrel.......fun for the guy with the gun, not so much fun for the fish....and the fish, in this case, can just quit leaving you a bucket of water to play with.......

 

[Oddball_E8]

Oddball....it is not fear-mongering...it is stone cold fact......
...
I don't play open because of mechanics like this.....You can see 4-5 new threads a day from people saying "I quit because of interdictions"....be they NPC or PvP InterDs.................and thats just the people who could be bothered to make it to this forum, AND make an account, AND suffer the inevitable hassle they get for posting their Good-Bye......
...
You can dismiss them as each new player gives up, but thats the reality........not fear mongering...truth.....peeople are leaving open, and even the game itself now that Interdictions are 1, Out of control for NPCs.....2. "Pirates" now making demands that the game be changed so that THEY can shoot traders.......which results in 90% "MDK" in this warped game universe they made..........where MDK gets a fine that can be paid off, but you get a MDK by cop.......for scratching a Miners ship whlie saving his life.........
...

Why don't you follow the trader to destination?> get them as they approach the station? they cant run then...or as a "Pirate" are you affraid fo getting a station fine? Ooooh ....big bad pirate.........at least then the trader has a chance to run for the door.........you stop them out in space, its shooting fish in a barrel.......fun for the guy with the gun, not so much fun for the fish....and the fish, in this case, can just quit leaving you a bucket of water to play with.......

It's perfectly fine that people play solo or in private groups.

The point is that if people choose to play in an open world PvP enviroment, they shouldn't complain about having to do some PvP.

 

[sahib]

They didn't, but who is saying that should not be allowed to interdict player traders in an open world PvP enviroment?

Oh, I'm sorry - are you saying you do not have the ability to interdict player traders in open?

From what I can see, you have a problem with people escaping from you and expect FD to "fix" that. You are allowed to interdict them, and they are allowed to defend themselves or run from you.

FD promised you can be a pirate - they did not promise there will only be player traders in space. If you can't beat other players then move to NPCs.

 

[Joe Spivey]

I seem to remember you saying that most will go solo...
Right, here it is:



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What you need to become a Pirate in the real world:

View attachment 15707

What traders consider "fair" to become a pirate in Elite Dangerous (#getabiggership):

View attachment 15710

*Sigh* 'Most' is not 'Everyone'. I'm sorry, I'm going to put you on ignore soon. Your constant tilting at windmills that exist mainly in your mind is derailing the thread.

 

[Oddball_E8]

Oh, I'm sorry - are you saying you do not have the ability to interdict player traders in open?

From what I can see, you have a problem with people escaping from you and expect FD to "fix" that. You are allowed to interdict them, and they are allowed to defend themselves or run from you.

FD promised you can be a pirate - they did not promise there will only be player traders in space. If you can't beat other players then move to NPCs.

Interdict, yes.
Damaging the interdicted target, no.
Then why interdict in the first place?

Interdiction has been changed from an actual tool to do your trade (piracy, bounty hunting) to a glorified griefing tool.

The target will ALWAYS get away if they submit (unless you are VASTLY bigger than them, but then, why would you interdict a hauler in your python in the first place?)

The submission cooldown is broken. They've admitted as much themselves.
It's not supposed to be that fast. It's not supposed to be used as a "get-out-of-interdiction-free" card by people submitting to the interdiction.

It's not about beating other players, it's about being able to even start the bloody fight.

(Oh and just for fun, FD promised you that you could be a Trader. They never promised you that you wouldn't be blown up by pirates)

 

[SuBSynk]

The sooner the players that do not want pvp interactions leave Open play and go to solo/group the better imo.

These players that want peaceful only pvp interaction have been trying to change Elite's cutthroat Galaxy since release and i for one am bored of listening to these silly comments about consensual pvp and wanting to give traders more opportunity to trade in safety etc when everyone should know that Open play = a massive spectrum of interaction which includes kill on sight, random murder and other criminal activities.

Once the open world is full of willing participants that accept all the random pvp interactions that players have to offer then we will start to see true emergent gameplay and the forums will stop being full of words like griefer.

 

[Oddball_E8]

The sooner the players that do not want pvp interactions leave Open play and go to solo/group the better imo.

These players that want peaceful only pvp interaction have been trying to change Elite's cutthroat Galaxy since release and i for one am bored of listening to these silly comments about consensual pvp and wanting to give traders more opportunity to trade in safety etc when everyone should know that Open play = a massive spectrum of interaction which includes kill on sight, random murder and other criminal activities.

Once the open world is full of willing participants that accept all the random pvp interactions that players have to offer then we will start to see true emergent gameplay and the forums will stop being full of words like griefer.

I fully agree!

 

[Yokai]

Le sigh. The last three pages of comments yet again completely ignore the fact that interdiction is in the solo game too. The OP was never about pirates versus traders and the rightness or wrongness of that, or whether the game should or should not be based around pirate versus trader "food chain" concepts, or whether tradinf rightly or wrongly makes more money than every other playstyle choice.

The OP was only ever about interdiction mechanics as they stand today versus interdiction mechanics changes proposed by FD, and the effect such changes would have across All game modes.

To the Pirate forced-combat lovers who say "if you don't like interdiction go play in Solo" you're missing the point.

 

[NickSama]

The sooner the players that do not want pvp interactions leave Open play and go to solo/group the better imo.

These players that want peaceful only pvp interaction have been trying to change Elite's cutthroat Galaxy since release and i for one am bored of listening to these silly comments about consensual pvp and wanting to give traders more opportunity to trade in safety etc when everyone should know that Open play = a massive spectrum of interaction which includes kill on sight, random murder and other criminal activities.

Once the open world is full of willing participants that accept all the random pvp interactions that players have to offer then we will start to see true emergent gameplay and the forums will stop being full of words like griefer.

Dude, You deserve so much more rep than I can give you that it's almost painful.

 

[tagos]

It's nice of you to decide who is and is not a "real" pirate.

I don't get to decide. They make that call all by themselves on the basis of their skill or lack of it. No matter how things are changed there will always be those who are just not very good and want more changes. It's the same in every game with a pvp element. Eight seconds is plenty of time to do serious damage to a freighter if you're good enough and smart enough. Then you chase them if you haven't disabled a key system in the first interdiction.

How long do you think you need? 20 seconds? 30?

Or would you prefer it if they simply cannot escape?

 

[NickSama]

Le sigh. The last three pages of comments yet again completely ignore the fact that interdiction is in the solo game too. The OP was never about pirates versus traders and the rightness or wrongness of that, or whether the game should or should not be based around pirate versus trader "food chain" concepts, or whether tradinf rightly or wrongly makes more money than every other playstyle choice.

The OP was only ever about interdiction mechanics as they stand today versus interdiction mechanics changes proposed by FD, and the effect such changes would have across All game modes.

To the Pirate forced-combat lovers who say "if you don't like interdiction go play in Solo" you're missing the point.

I understand your point but the problem I see with your reasoning is that you compare ED to any other MMO in terms of balancing "classes".
I mean in WoW for example, you can argue on the survivability of a class/character against another due to balancing problems between classes/skills in a random PvP encounter.
The main difference here is that in WoW every class is more or less suited for a battlefield. Even a healer has some attack power because the basis of a MMo is combat, you have to fight your way alongside the game to progress.
ED is different, you can choose a way of playing totally rid of fighting if it's your choice that's why Pvp encounters can seem so unfair to certain persons.
I can totally understand why a T6 cargo can't really defend itself againt a Python as I can perfectly understand why a delivery truck can't defend itself against a tank. That's unfair, yeah, but IMO it's the entire point of the game.

 

[Scimiter]

As a trader there is an easy way to avoid "real pirates" just trade a couple of hundred light years away from Sol, Leesti, Diso, etc etc.
Where I trade and I do trade in the "open", I am the only person trading in the system, you still get interdicted, but by NPC's and they are usually easy to escape from.
Mind you its a bit lonely, but there are some great trade routes off the beaten track.

 

[HectorW]

snip

The point here is that if you CHOOSE to play in an Open PvP enviroment, then DON'T complain about the PvP.
.

Yes, when I'm trading i accept possibility to be interdicted by a pirate, even killed (as I will never agree to be a victim and rather die with my ship). Its all valid gameplay.
But
piracy in ED is badly implemented and thats the problem:
- Of course trading should be most profitable, there are countless examples of trading empires or corporations today with immense wealth from trade, not much from piracy.
-Pirate should get much more credits for successful action, but he should have lasting wanted status in systems he operated. Successful pirates were wealthy but they were rare and usually dying fast.
-Trader should have possibility to hire escort -NPC - as nobody should be forced to socialize.
-Secure sectors should be secure - distress signal and Security appears - delay depends from level of security in the system and rank of player (eg. for Earl in Empire system security should be in 10s i believe, with each rank down 10s more)
-Piartes could counter this with wings as this option is clearly for them.

 

[Oddball_E8]

Le sigh. The last three pages of comments yet again completely ignore the fact that interdiction is in the solo game too. The OP was never about pirates versus traders and the rightness or wrongness of that, or whether the game should or should not be based around pirate versus trader "food chain" concepts, or whether tradinf rightly or wrongly makes more money than every other playstyle choice.

The OP was only ever about interdiction mechanics as they stand today versus interdiction mechanics changes proposed by FD, and the effect such changes would have across All game modes.

To the Pirate forced-combat lovers who say "if you don't like interdiction go play in Solo" you're missing the point.

The submission mechanic as it is right now is broken.
The cooldown on the FSD is much too short to allow for any combat to be even remotely effective against a target, even an NPC one, before they can jump away safely.

In solo or open play.

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I don't get to decide. They make that call all by themselves on the basis of their skill or lack of it. No matter how things are changed there will always be those who are just not very good and want more changes. It's the same in every game with a pvp element. Eight seconds is plenty of time to do serious damage to a freighter if you're good enough and smart enough. Then you chase them if you haven't disabled a key system in the first interdiction.

How long do you think you need? 20 seconds? 30?

Or would you prefer it if they simply cannot escape?

Well, since I'm a bounty hunter and my targets usually have combat-grade ships, I'd say I'll need a bit more than a pirate, but 10 seconds is certainly way too short a time.

20 seconds would be reasonable, it would allow the skilled pirate to take down the shields and attach limpets and it would also let the skilled trader (because all I ever hear is that pirates need skill, never anything about traders needing it) survive for long enough to jump away to safety.

How long do YOU think would be fair for both parties?
Or would you prefer it if you could always escape without effort?

 

[Oddball_E8]

Yes, when I'm trading i accept possibility to be interdicted by a pirate, even killed (as I will never agree to be a victim and rather die with my ship). Its all valid gameplay.
But
piracy in ED is badly implemented and thats the problem:
- Of course trading should be most profitable, there are countless examples of trading empires or corporations today with immense wealth from trade, not much from piracy.
-Pirate should get much more credits for successful action, but he should have lasting wanted status in systems he operated. Successful pirates were wealthy but they were rare and usually dying fast.
-Trader should have possibility to hire escort -NPC - as nobody should be forced to socialize.
-Secure sectors should be secure - distress signal and Security appears - delay depends from level of security in the system and rank of player (eg. for Earl in Empire system security should be in 10s i believe, with each rank down 10s more)
-Piartes could counter this with wings as this option is clearly for them.

All of that sounds great, but is completely beyond the point of this thread.

FD is fixing the submission mechanics.
People are claiming that doing so is unfair to traders because then (and I'm pretty much quoting here) "traders have no way of escaping".
On the other side of the spectrum you have Pirates that currently have pretty much 0 chance of stopping their target.

So yes, the interdiction and piracy mechanics need major overhauls.
But that's not the current discussion.

 

[Indy Original]

All of that sounds great, but is completely beyond the point of this thread.

FD is fixing the submission mechanics.
People are claiming that doing so is unfair to traders because then (and I'm pretty much quoting here) "traders have no way of escaping".
On the other side of the spectrum you have Pirates that currently have pretty much 0 chance of stopping their target.

So yes, the interdiction and piracy mechanics need major overhauls.
But that's not the current discussion.

I've got to say, Oddball, you've carried the torch for pirates amazingly well, both in this thread and in the other one over the weekend - especially since you are not actually a pirate yourself! I can't understand why this debate is even necessary, since the way interdictions work at the moment is so obviously broken... how could anyone argue that it would be a mistake for FD to fix it? Pirates don't want an 'auto-win', they just want to stand a chance... Tagos seems to think that 8 seconds is long enough for a skilled pirate to damage a trader, but even if it is (maybe a trader with no shield, I suppose), it is not long enough for any player interaction... a pirate who wastes time typing "5 tons or death, ye scurvy dog!" will lose every single time, and that's obviously bad.

Months ago, when the PvP crowd wanted Solo to be removed so that everyone would have to play in Open, I never agreed - if some people don't want PvP, you can't force it on them. But anyone who chooses of their own free will to play in Open must accept that PvP may happen... and I thought that was part of the appeal, I thought that the danger of being attacked was part of why Elite became so popular in the first place! If Elite 1984 had not had pirates, it would have been dull... I would have thought that most traders would appreciate the added challenge!

I just can't understand why so many traders (not just one or two, judging by these threads, but dozens) are so opposed to the idea of piracy that they would rather ruin the game for pirates than compromise. The traders could play in Solo, or a private group; they could upgrade their shields, or maybe hire wingmen in 1.2; they could fly multi-purpose ships, that carry less cargo but are more able to defend themselves; they could practice at the interdiction mini-game, and escape legitimately; they could even just submit to the interdiction and give the pirates a few tons of cargo, since they will still probably make a profit on the trip anyway. They have so many options, the game is actually biased in their favour... so why are they so unwilling to throw the poor pirates a bone?

 

[Oddball_E8]

I've got to say, Oddball, you've carried the torch for pirates amazingly well, both in this thread and in the other one over the weekend - especially since you are not actually a pirate yourself! I can't understand why this debate is even necessary, since the way interdictions work at the moment is so obviously broken... how could anyone argue that it would be a mistake for FD to fix it? Pirates don't want an 'auto-win', they just want to stand a chance... Tagos seems to think that 8 seconds is long enough for a skilled pirate to damage a trader, but even if it is (maybe a trader with no shield, I suppose), it is not long enough for any player interaction... a pirate who wastes time typing "5 tons or death, ye scurvy dog!" will lose every single time, and that's obviously bad.

Months ago, when the PvP crowd wanted Solo to be removed so that everyone would have to play in Open, I never agreed - if some people don't want PvP, you can't force it on them. But anyone who chooses of their own free will to play in Open must accept that PvP may happen... and I thought that was part of the appeal, I thought that the danger of being attacked was part of why Elite became so popular in the first place! If Elite 1984 had not had pirates, it would have been dull... I would have thought that most traders would appreciate the added challenge!

I just can't understand why so many traders (not just one or two, judging by these threads, but dozens) are so opposed to the idea of piracy that they would rather ruin the game for pirates than compromise. The traders could play in Solo, or a private group; they could upgrade their shields, or maybe hire wingmen in 1.2; they could fly multi-purpose ships, that carry less cargo but are more able to defend themselves; they could practice at the interdiction mini-game, and escape legitimately; they could even just submit to the interdiction and give the pirates a few tons of cargo, since they will still probably make a profit on the trip anyway. They have so many options, the game is actually biased in their favour... so why are they so unwilling to throw the poor pirates a bone?

Yup, this effects bounty hunters just as much (more even, since our targets take longer to take down), but traders don't care about that.
As long as they get to trade in open play without risk.

:/