Pirates & Greavers in Open [Positive]

[yul7896]

Pirates & Greavers in Open(and they aren't the same) [Positive]

I felt the need to post this thread solely because there is an abundance of one-sided, exceedingly vocal conversations going on about Pirating, and Greaving, and the Open vs Solo vs Group debate.

Seriously people, Human Occupied Space is really big. There are lots of stars and lots of stations, and relatively not that many people. There are even far, far fewer people who get their kicks simply from popping noobs & the ill-equipped. I'm no trader, and I'm happy, willing, and able to fight ANY Greaver, Pirate, or PvP'r, no problem. So my perspective varies greatly from that of the typical T-X pilot.

For those who aren't prepared for such endeavors, you shouldn't, and don't have to be. And guess what? You can still play in Open. In real life, I would not currently walk through the streets of Ramadi, unless I was rolling deep & with enough firepower to level a few city blocks, and even that probably isn't enough. Just as in real life, I do not plan on venturing into hostile enemy territory without being properly fit.

I'm not saying every trader needs to be in an Anaconda with big teeth to make it through Diso, but if you're trying to turn huge profits on rare goods, shouldn't there be some risk outside of the consensus view of super easy NPC interdiction? I run a rare loop from my home system Hip 80242, through Lave, Leesti, Diso, down to Vega, and all the way out to Toxandji with a few stops at some other Rare's stations. I see Pirates, real Pirates not Greavers, occasionally but even they are few and far between. To be honest, I wish I ran into CODE or RoA more than I do on this route. And notice how I'm not afraid to tell everyone where my home system is, Greavers are not to be feared, they are to be pitied.

And for the folks who say "I've been grinding for sooo many hours, and HATE losing all that Cr on rebuy and Pirated goods!!" To that I say, why are you grinding, unless you enjoy the grind? Do you not enjoy the game or something? I play ED to fly a spaceship, not see how many credits I can make. I try to make Cr in real life, and it sucks, why would I do it in a game, especially if I didn't enjoy it.

Now I do agree that there should be harsher consequences for folks who murder simply for murdering. But if you're a trader, just trying to trade, please don't feel like Open is only for PvP'ing and Grief.

EDIT: Changed forum title because saying Pirates and Griefers aren't the same multiple times in the thread and OP, isn't enough to keep folks from drawing unfounded comparisons.

 

[Samosa]

In light of this issue, can we all at least agree that - in verb form - we spell the word: "griefer"?

 

[yul7896]

I can't even agree with myself on that one, I guess griefer + reaver = Greaver, but it's all subjective.

 

[Mercury Shift]

I, too, love to just fly. I have an Exploro-Asp (previously a pretty true multirole, but re-equipped to drop combat when I got my next ship) and a Vulture Combat Extraordinaire. I have simply just been flying those to suit my flavor of gameplay of the week, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future, though I will probably pick up a Diamondback and Courier to try them out and potentially find a replacement for my niche 'interceptor' style ship (previously a Viper). I don't trade, just not my cup of tea, so aside from my Exo Asp I don't really have any defenseless ships.

That said, I play in a group of me and 2 real life friends, though they are not on as much or when I am. I feel that I am missing a bunch of the experience this way. Hell, if I did fly trade, I would love to have some piracy interaction or the risk of. NPC Bounty Hunting in a Vulture is massively rewarding ... in credits. The NPC AI (at least until 1.3 hits I hear) hasn't really been a challenge since I was in an Eagle, the Viper was a little fragile, but it got the job done. And I KNOW I am missing out on the 'community' or actual real people regular interactions. I have dabbled in Open a few times, saw a single real player once and tried to say hello. He jumped away immediately after I said "Hello CMDR" in local. PVP is something I would be interested in trying, even if I know that realistically, I have no reason to think I am competent enough of a pilot to do so.

But the game doesn't do a very good job of keeping the players responsible for their behaviors. Pirates don't get rewarded enough for being "real" pirates and going after cargo. "Wanted" status is either "Kill Immediately" or "Clean", no middle ground for assaults. The functionality for PVP minded challenges exists: "turn off reporting", but the folks that several of the threads the OP referred to are about players that want no part of PVP, just an easy kill to bother another player. Hopefully 1.3 will work some magic to help alleviate some of these issues.

But the reason I do not play in Open is simple:
I don't want to share any kind of gaming experience with "people" who simply just want to screw with another player.

I am not afraid of them, I do all kinds of risky (read: dumb) stuff that I know very well will turn my ships into dust, so death isn't a big deal to me and I always fly with enough to cover insurance. Exploration is a bit different since losing the data usually represents a decent amount of time invested into the game and because you can't scan systems again, even if you lost the data. But thats why my Exo Asp has all Torpedo Pylons.

I wouldn't even want to hunt them down, for ingame bounties or vendettas. This is because these players don't want a real fight. They want an easy target. So a combat spec'd bounty hunter ship type (stronger than their own) showing up on their screens is their cue to leave.

Worst of all is that they continue to evolve in ways to mess with another player (Dock Ramming). So unless official action is taken against players such as these, they will always find a way to interfere with other players' experiences in negative ways.

Will I get more into Open? I hope so. I have been testing the waters occasionally already. But the first instance I have with a true griefer, I will be back to private win or lose. I want no part with that filth.

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I can't even agree with myself on that one, I guess griefer + reaver = Greaver, but it's all subjective.

While I like the sentiment, and totally love the reference, I disagree with the use as it would undoubtedly be worn as a badge of honor by them. I also hate the use of "trolls" when referring to anyone on internet communications that is abusive simply because there are no consequences. It's a cutesy title that they end up owning or rallying behind.

 

[Darrett]

The issue with Pirates and Griefers needs to be looked at in more detail than just making it impossible or so heavily prohibited that it's not fun for anyone involved.
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Being killed repeatedly with no chance to fight back and facing insurance payments that can cripple you is not fun for the victim. We need to encourage people to stay within high security systems as well as increasing their safety while in those systems.
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The improved AI in 1.3 should help make system authority more powerful. This will help increase the risk to the attacking player as well as give the defending player a feeling that they are able to fight back with the help of the System Authority. One thing that can be looked at is the response time of the Authority vessels. In a High Security system, I would say they should be arriving within 10-15 seconds of the interdiction event. It's possible that it would be a ramped response, where the first arrival would be a light interceptor, followed by the heavy response craft shortly after. Ideally they would look to increasing the over time to kill in the game, which would encourage disabling an enemy over outright killing them. The goal should be that a skilled pirate wing would have time to disable an enemy, use hatchbreaker limpets, and collect cargo using drones by the time the second wave of System Authority arrived, but that going straight to a hull or power plant kill would require them to spend some time being attacked by the Authority, as well as running up large bounties in the process. Obviously these protections would be lessened in low security, and removed in anarchy systems.
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By making this change, it leads to some more modifications that would be necessary for the benefit of attacking players. One is the current interdiction FSD cooldown timer. With the above changes in place, you could increase the FSD cooldown for submitting to the same duration as losing an interdiction minigame, but remove the system damage from submitting, and increasing FSD module damage for losing the interdiction (for either losing participant). This reduces the effectiveness of making a break for it, but when combined with the increased time to kill and the System Authority arriving, should still balance out.
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So now you've made the process more difficult within high security systems, and easier within anarchy systems. This makes the anarchy systems more dangerous while providing a safer alternative for those with limited funds or who are early on in their spacefaring career. The other side of the coin, however, is the pirates themselves. I would suggest that Black Markets on stations controlled by criminal groups should pay more for goods; they don't care about the source of the goods, after all. In those Black Markets, you should be able to sell the goods at the same value as the commodities market values. This makes piracy more profitable on the selling side.
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One question I have for the group before I continue; what are the current bounty amounts for actions? From what I've seen online, it's a 5,000CR bounty for murder. I know that you get a 200-400CR bounty for assault (stupid System Authority, I'm shooting here!). Have we compiled a list of amounts and the influence that system security has on them?
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The other part is the Bounty side. A known pirate is wanted, but not even in the same category as a known murderer. When you assault a player, you should get a bounty roughly equal to 1000CR. Relatively low amount to account for what would be a minor isolated incident, with a low turnover time to a Fine. This amount would increase if it happens in a higher security system, perhaps up to 5000CR. This should only happen on repeated shots or a shot on an unengaged target to account for stray laser fire. This means that if we assume that goods generally sit in a 3500CR a unit range, a Cobra set up for piracy with a cargo capacity of 24 Tons could end up with a profit of approximately 84,000 a load, minus the assault charge, assuming he's moderately successful at picking targets. Obviously, this number could increase significantly if he managed to find a single target in an Anarchy system loaded down with Palladium or Rare Goods. The second half to this segment is to increase the murder bounty significantly, while also adding the Bounty amount to the player's insurance rebuy cost if they are killed. Something in the territory of 50,000 CR for a murder charge would suffice, increasing in higher security systems.
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So let's play out the whole thing as a scenario.
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A. A new player, CMDR Baldrick, buys a Hauler and outfits it for trading. He keeps his shield generator and even spends a few credits upgrading it, because he's a new player who still isn't confident in his skills. He buys a load of Diso Ma Corn as he's unable to find any turnips (16 Tons), and sets off along the safest route he can find... let's just say he plans it out so he has to make 32 jumps, 15 of which are through Low Security Systems. While in a High Security System, CMDR Baldrick is interdicted by the daring CMDR Blackbeard. He fights the interdiction and loses, taking 10% damage to his FSD as a result. Blackbeard isn't the type to talk, and immediately opens fire on our intrepid hero, who tries to dodge and weave to just stay alive, even using a SCB to keep his shields up. After a short while, two System Authority Eagles arrive and open fire on CMDR Blackbeard. As he's alone, this is enough to see him off. He boosts away, and as soon as his FSD cooldown expires he jumps to a nearby system before the heavy guns arrive. CMDR Baldrick then heads to a station to repair and reload his SCB before continuing.
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A few jumps later, and CMDR Baldrick finds himself in a Low Security System. He is again interdicted by our friend CMDR Blackbeard. The same sequence of events follows, but in this case, there are no System Authority arriving in time to help out CMDR Baldrick, and his shields go down. CMDR Blackbeard doesn't want to reduce his profits with a murder charge, so he targets the FSD and the Drives of the Hauler before using a hatchbreaker limpet, collecting his goods, and departing. This leaves CMDR Baldrick to reboot and repair before scooping up any cargo that was left behind and either continuing or returning to try something else.
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I think this is the key. It would make piracy more difficult as security increased, while not making it impossible, and make successful acts of piracy more profitable, while discouraging players from killing a target to avoid profit loss. It makes Anarchy Systems truly dangerous, and will encourage traders to wing up for protection, take longer routes to avoid Anarchy systems, and keep Shield Generators so they aren't subject to immediate loss if they are interdicted.
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Edit- Anybody else finding that the forum is taking out blank spaces between paragraphs?

 

[yul7896]

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The improved AI in 1.3 should help make system authority more powerful. This will help increase the risk to the attacking player as well as give the defending player a feeling that they are able to fight back with the help of the System Authority. One thing that can be looked at is the response time of the Authority vessels. In a High Security system, I would say they should be arriving within 10-15 seconds of the interdiction event. It's possible that it would be a ramped response, where the first arrival would be a light interceptor, followed by the heavy response craft shortly after. Ideally they would look to increasing the over time to kill in the game, which would encourage disabling an enemy over outright killing them. The goal should be that a skilled pirate wing would have time to disable an enemy, use hatchbreaker limpets, and collect cargo using drones by the time the second wave of System Authority arrived, but that going straight to a hull or power plant kill would require them to spend some time being attacked by the Authority, as well as running up large bounties in the process. Obviously these protections would be lessened in low security, and removed in anarchy systems.
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At first read, this seems to be the best, most rational, and content driving fix to our issue here. Good post, your input is appreciated.

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I, too, love to just fly. I have an Exploro-Asp (previously a pretty true multirole, but re-equipped to drop combat when I got my next ship) and a Vulture Combat Extraordinaire....

......

Will I get more into Open? I hope so. I have been testing the waters occasionally already. But the first instance I have with a true griefer, I will be back to private win or lose. I want no part with that filth.

Thanks for the input, all opinions are appreciated. Wouldn't even mind hearing the perspective of a greaver. Please don't abandon Open when you come across Grief, you should just let me know, I have no problem finding them where they stay.

 

[Mercury Shift]

I have to disagree. It's not the Pirates that are the problem and Piracy is already pretty weak as a profession. The gankers or pirates who don't really pirate are the problem and 10-15 seconds into one of those fights the System Authority will only find a debris field and a jump wake.

 

[Mercury Shift]

Thanks for the input, all opinions are appreciated. Wouldn't even mind hearing the perspective of a greaver. Please don't abandon Open when you come across Grief, you should just let me know, I have no problem finding them where they stay.

Like I said, its not a matter of getting griefed, win or lose. Its that type of person, I avoid them the same in real life just the same. I will still give it a try, but when my experience is sullied by their presence, I am done. In real life, I have to fight the urges to level these pieces of trash, I don't need to to have to fight in an activity for fun.

 

[yul7896]

I have to disagree. It's not the Pirates that are the problem and Piracy is already pretty weak as a profession. The gankers or pirates who don't really pirate are the problem and 10-15 seconds into one of those fights the System Authority will only find a debris field and a jump wake.

Yes, it is definitely the people masquerading as Pirates, who are really simple murderers that are the problem. Question though, how long does an engagement with say a T-6 vs ImpClipRammer last? I really have no idea.

Also, is repeated greaving really that easy to do? Seems to me tracking people across a few systems can be difficult, and I've done it.

 

[Drink!]

I have to disagree. It's not the Pirates that are the problem and Piracy is already pretty weak as a profession. The gankers or pirates who don't really pirate are the problem and 10-15 seconds into one of those fights the System Authority will only find a debris field and a jump wake.

Unless your completely out classed, most people can last 10-15 seconds. FSD can take longer to recharge.

Overall, NPCs need to be MUSH stronger. NPCs are not feared and are made of paper. I should not be able to drop in a strong signal with a python and kill two out of 3 condas with only 1 A3 Sheild bank.

 

[Darrett]

I have to disagree. It's not the Pirates that are the problem and Piracy is already pretty weak as a profession. The gankers or pirates who don't really pirate are the problem and 10-15 seconds into one of those fights the System Authority will only find a debris field and a jump wake.

There's no way to make it so you're perfectly safe from a wing of people dedicated to killing you. Unless you're running without shields or are completely outclassed, you should be able to survive 10-15 seconds. Even if you don't, the murder bounties and the addition of those bounties to the rebuy cost of the murderer will quickly make it less attractive for people to kill without reason.

 

[Mercury Shift]

Yes, it is definitely the people masquerading as Pirates, who are really simple murderers that are the problem. Question though, how long does an engagement with say a T-6 vs ImpClipRammer last? I really have no idea.

Also, is repeated greaving really that easy to do? Seems to me tracking people across a few systems can be difficult, and I've done it.

T-6 vs a Clipper? Probably not long. Extrapolated from Starlighter's testing, a Clipper with 2 Large and 2 Medium pulse lasers can dish out over 1200 damage in about 10 seconds. A T-6 with a 5A Shield Gen and all 3 utilities as A grade shield boosters (an unlikely setup for a trader) is only ~244MJ. After that, the hull melts pretty quick.

As far as repeated attacks go, I doubt its really done. Its more a "target of opportunity" kind of thing. The station rammers are a whole different level of scum.

 

[Mercury Shift]

Darrett and Drink, I am strictly speaking of those who are ganking players that are weaker opponents, so yes, the victim is outclassed by choice of the attacker. These types of players don't engage someone who is going to give them a challenge or fair fight, they are like kids using magnifying glasses on ants.

They are not pirates, by profession or RP. They are not PVP specific players looking for an arena match. They are plain and simple looking to get their jollies off by ruining another person's experience.

 

[Darrett]

Darrett and Drink, I am strictly speaking of those who are ganking players that are weaker opponents, so yes, the victim is outclassed by choice of the attacker. These types of players don't engage someone who is going to give them a challenge or fair fight, they are like kids using magnifying glasses on ants.

They are not pirates, by profession or RP. They are not PVP specific players looking for an arena match. They are plain and simple looking to get their jollies off by ruining another person's experience.

I get what you're saying, but how often are they going to do that when each murder adds to their insurance rebuy? That number can be tweaked in order to discourage serial offenders as well.

That same player who decides to ruin the experience of others might get away with it 10 or even 20 times to different people, but when they die and get a $150,000,000 rebuy due to compounding insurance penalties and end up in a stock Sidewinder, they probably won't continue.

In addition to all that, you can blacklist them so they never appear in the same instance as you again using current ignore methods, so you'll continually narrow down your list.

 

[Anopheles]

Pirates =/= griefers. Could we stop conflating them please.

 

[Darrett]

Pirates =/= griefers. Could we stop conflating them please.

They do need to be discussed together in many instances, because any changes need to be punishing to griefers while not reducing the ability, profitability, and fun of a legitimate pirate player.

 

[Mercury Shift]

Apologies, I think we are talking two different things. I was initially disagreeing with your idea specifically as to how it related to pirates. The faster response thing specifically. Adding on insurance costs would be a great way to hit the griefers, but lets look at the pirate impact:

Pirates would be more incentivized (prolly not a word, but I like it) to go for the cargo and not the kill. Great.
Pirates would be unaffected as long as they didn't outright kill. Also great.
Pirates would then have to choose to accept a much steeper punishment or let a trader go if they don't comply. Eh, kind of losing me here.
Traders would begin to resist submitting to demands knowing that the profit drops heftily if the pirate kills them.

In my mind traders should comply and drop cargo. For me its twofold:

1. Players should not want to die. Like avoid at all costs kind of not want to die. It adds to the immersion and balancing factors of the game. And we all want criminals to be deterred appropriately, so we should have victims that equally want to comply. I actually saw a trader post once that they preferred to self-destruct before dropping cargo. That is asinine.

2. Do. the. Maths. Losing a hold full of high value (uninsurable as far as I know) cargo and a ship rebuy is ALWAYS going to be more expensive than what a pirate will ask for.

I see that you buffed Piracy profits, that is something I can agree with, as well as the FSD cooldown extention, but the Blacklist idea I didn't see in your main post. That I will sign up for right now and jump specifically and forever into Open if I had it. XBox Live has a similar function, so maybe it is possible.

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They do need to be discussed together in many instances, because any changes need to be punishing to griefers while not reducing the ability, profitability, and fun of a legitimate pirate player.

Repped. And to Anopheles. I have a TL;DR that I usually post on this topic:

1. Open =/= PVP
2. Piracy =/= Griefing
3. Griefing =/= PVP

 

[Darrett]

Apologies, I think we are talking two different things. I was initially disagreeing with your idea specifically as to how it related to pirates. The faster response thing specifically. Adding on insurance costs would be a great way to hit the griefers, but lets look at the pirate impact:

Pirates would be more incentivized (prolly not a word, but I like it) to go for the cargo and not the kill. Great.
Pirates would be unaffected as long as they didn't outright kill. Also great.
Pirates would then have to choose to accept a much steeper punishment or let a trader go if they don't comply. Eh, kind of losing me here.
Traders would begin to resist submitting to demands knowing that the profit drops heftily if the pirate kills them.

In my mind traders should comply and drop cargo. For me its twofold:

1. Players should not want to die. Like avoid at all costs kind of not want to die. It adds to the immersion and balancing factors of the game. And we all want criminals to be deterred appropriately, so we should have victims that equally want to comply. I actually saw a trader post once that they preferred to self-destruct before dropping cargo. That is asinine.

2. Do. the. Maths. Losing a hold full of high value (uninsurable as far as I know) cargo and a ship rebuy is ALWAYS going to be more expensive than what a pirate will ask for.

I see that you buffed Piracy profits, that is something I can agree with, as well as the FSD cooldown extention, but the Blacklist idea I didn't see in your main post. That I will sign up for right now and jump specifically and forever into Open if I had it. XBox Live has a similar function, so maybe it is possible.

As far as your point 3, I'm not sure that you have to accept a murder bounty if they don't comply. If they refuse to comply, then you target drives and cargo hatch. With a longer FSD cooldown on interdiction, it gives the Pirate longer to get through shields and take out the drives.

Timing is important in these ideas obviously, and I don't think I've got it sorted when it comes to the FSD cooldown, System Authority response times, etc. It's also possible that this only works when a subsystems and SCB rebalance is looked at.

 

[Mercury Shift]

As far as your point 3, I'm not sure that you have to accept a murder bounty if they don't comply. If they refuse to comply, then you target drives and cargo hatch. With a longer FSD cooldown on interdiction, it gives the Pirate longer to get through shields and take out the drives.

Timing is important in these ideas obviously, and I don't think I've got it sorted when it comes to the FSD cooldown, System Authority response times, etc. It's also possible that this only works when a subsystems and SCB rebalance is looked at.

That is a fair point. But it is also a point against faster authority response times, since it could take longer to pop the can open to get the beans out. But I agree that module damage will need some rebalancing as last I knew FSD destruction kills the ship. And it could use some rebalancing anyways. Plus damaging first the drives and FSD and then the Cargo Hatch is alot to ask of some of the hulls out there.

But if it could be worked out that piracy could be reliably possible without the trader complying, then I am on-board with the idea in full. Especially that Blacklist idea, more and more that is sounding so awesome to me. It couldn't be abused as it would be specific to the player. And it really wouldn't overly affect the griefer either as they'd have to off half the galaxy (literally) before they would see any impact on their game.

 

[Darrett]

That is a fair point. But it is also a point against faster authority response times, since it could take longer to pop the can open to get the beans out. But I agree that module damage will need some rebalancing as last I knew FSD destruction kills the ship. And it could use some rebalancing anyways. Plus damaging first the drives and FSD and then the Cargo Hatch is alot to ask of some of the hulls out there.

But if it could be worked out that piracy could be reliably possible without the trader complying, then I am on-board with the idea in full. Especially that Blacklist idea, more and more that is sounding so awesome to me. It couldn't be abused as it would be specific to the player. And it really wouldn't overly affect the griefer either as they'd have to off half the galaxy (literally) before they would see any impact on their game.

I've given module rebalance some thought as well (some of it is out in other threads), but basically I would say we need to set modules as internal or external (internal is protected by armor, external isn't) based on the type. Increase the ability of smaller weapon types to hit modules precisely, encouraging use of Small or Medium hardpoints to disable targets.

It could also solve an issue with the response time problem you've pointed out; if the Time to Kill were increased, but Time to Disable was kept reasonable, then response times of NPC Authority forces could be set to be closer to the TTK, encouraging disabling targets. Additionally, the FSD cooldown increased to be under the TTK, but above the disable time.