The Elite Dangerous ingame reputation system thread

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    Votes: 32 100.0%
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What I'd like, is merit decay scaled based on total playtime, in such a way that player 1 can reach the same rank as player 2. It will take much longer for player 1 in real world weeks, but the rank acquirable vs total playtime should be the same.

It's in a game-designer's interest to make their games as habituating as possible; that's why you've got things like raids in World of Warcraft that only drop loot once a week: they want you to carve out at least one night a week for them. Other games are more aggressive and try to make your game-play fall at the same time every day (e.g.: Farmville) The way they get you habituated is with a reward for being a habitual player. Rewarding the habitual player can be seen as punishing the 'casual' player depending on whether you're a glass-half-full kinda guy or a glass-half-empty kinda guy. Done badly this can drive players away in droves; take for example Warlords of Draenor's tamagotchi-like garrisons, which sucked up so much player time that they killed the social content.

In principle I have no problem with that; it's implicit in game-play (as is "grinding") and the only effective way to push back on it is to vote with your feet until game-designers either stop doing it or come up with another way of stimulating obsessive behavior. So, mentally, I re-formulate your question as whether or not standing in PP is the best incentive structure for dedicated players, or whether there should be another. Personally, I'd prefer if there was a rivetting story-arc that sucked people in and didn't let them go, but that's what I value in games.

How would you feel if players' standing was affected by other players' standing? Let's say you can be in the "top 10%" of one power's supporters, or the "top 100%" that way your standing wouldn't "decay" but other players might pass you and leave you in the dust over time while you were doing something else? I suspect people would scream about that, too. Gamers don't appear to like zero-sum competitive arrangements; the "me me me!" crowd want everyone to win, only they win a little more - which inevitably results in inflation and periodic devaluation-of-everything like in World of Warcraft. Unfortunately the best way to prevent inflation is by establishing a zero-sum system.

From an in-game standpoint it's perfectly reasonable. I'd go all Darth Vader on my minions if they suddenly took a week off and didn't show up when I was in a crucial series of battles... I see the whole powerplay thing as a superstructure reward for players that want to be more important in the game. It's not taking anything away from the casual players; they're just not going after that reward.

Consider the epic cape quest in Mists of Pandaria: if you're on it, you won't lose ground from where you are, but when a new expansion drops in 12 months, all your progress becomes irrelevant because now all the cool kids are going after Khadgar's ring quest instead. That's what I mean about deflation at the top. Blizzard maintains value by periodically making all your hard-won accomplishments valueless.

Personally, I'd rather see a model where casual players actually were punished for not participating as much, than a model where everyone gets devalued every 12 months. I'm not convinced FD has thought this through, though. They seem to be heading toward the worst of both worlds: the cost of ships and outfitting will spiral up to absorb the higher payouts from missions, and value will automatically decay. That's a "deflation plus stark fist of removal" strategy and I'm not sure it's well thought-out.
 
It's in a game-designer's interest to make their games as habituating as possible; that's why you've got things like raids in World of Warcraft that only drop loot once a week: they want you to carve out at least one night a week for them. Other games are more aggressive and try to make your game-play fall at the same time every day (e.g.: Farmville) The way they get you habituated is with a reward for being a habitual player. Rewarding the habitual player can be seen as punishing the 'casual' player depending on whether you're a glass-half-full kinda guy or a glass-half-empty kinda guy. Done badly this can drive players away in droves; take for example Warlords of Draenor's tamagotchi-like garrisons, which sucked up so much player time that they killed the social content.

In principle I have no problem with that; it's implicit in game-play (as is "grinding") and the only effective way to push back on it is to vote with your feet until game-designers either stop doing it or come up with another way of stimulating obsessive behavior. So, mentally, I re-formulate your question as whether or not standing in PP is the best incentive structure for dedicated players, or whether there should be another. Personally, I'd prefer if there was a rivetting story-arc that sucked people in and didn't let them go, but that's what I value in games.

How would you feel if players' standing was affected by other players' standing? Let's say you can be in the "top 10%" of one power's supporters, or the "top 100%" that way your standing wouldn't "decay" but other players might pass you and leave you in the dust over time while you were doing something else? I suspect people would scream about that, too. Gamers don't appear to like zero-sum competitive arrangements; the "me me me!" crowd want everyone to win, only they win a little more - which inevitably results in inflation and periodic devaluation-of-everything like in World of Warcraft. Unfortunately the best way to prevent inflation is by establishing a zero-sum system.

From an in-game standpoint it's perfectly reasonable. I'd go all Darth Vader on my minions if they suddenly took a week off and didn't show up when I was in a crucial series of battles... I see the whole powerplay thing as a superstructure reward for players that want to be more important in the game. It's not taking anything away from the casual players; they're just not going after that reward.

Consider the epic cape quest in Mists of Pandaria: if you're on it, you won't lose ground from where you are, but when a new expansion drops in 12 months, all your progress becomes irrelevant because now all the cool kids are going after Khadgar's ring quest instead. That's what I mean about deflation at the top. Blizzard maintains value by periodically making all your hard-won accomplishments valueless.

Personally, I'd rather see a model where casual players actually were punished for not participating as much, than a model where everyone gets devalued every 12 months. I'm not convinced FD has thought this through, though. They seem to be heading toward the worst of both worlds: the cost of ships and outfitting will spiral up to absorb the higher payouts from missions, and value will automatically decay. That's a "deflation plus stark fist of removal" strategy and I'm not sure it's well thought-out.

I'm not sure what the point your trying to make is, they neither have to subscriptions, a pay to win micro transaction or advertising revenues.

Frontiers design consideration are purely game play related, as they don't need to milk you for revenue, they've already got you money.

They need to make it appealing and fair to the whole player base, they need to have people like the game enough to buy the expansions - they benefit in no way from the MMORPG level and gear grinds to keep people playing and the subs flowing.

There's also no level scaled gear, a pulse laser is always going to be a pulse laser, there's no level 5 pulse laser that will make it make it redundant, the same goes for all the equipment and ships.

The expansion will add new features, they're not they're not going to make rest of the game obsolete over night, it's not like adding new higher level zones to a MMORPG. You can't compare Elite to a level based MMORPG, if you need a comparison use the old skill based MMOs like Ultima Online.
 
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I've been a player since early Beta, and spent a good chunk of money ($160 IIRC) for the game.

I hate to say it, but as soon as I saw that 1.3 was going live, I knew this was going to be a bug-riddled weekend.

Sure, there are other things I could be doing -- but there is no excuse for releasing a major update with game-breaking bugs, let alone on a Friday.

Major bugs I've run into:
Missions not awarding proper payment.
Empty RES areas.
Being attacked by a ship and it not showing up as hostile (Even though it's wanted).
My reputation and ranks for major factions being completely screwed up.
No naval ascension missions due to the above.

This is very disappointing. Elite: Dangerous is a game I want to like, but the developers' constant missteps are disconcerting to me.
Many of the bugs people are experiencing in 1.3 right now were reported in earlier betas, and many are new bugs introduced with 1.3 that were not in the Beta builds, because the live build was never tested on the beta servers before being pushed live.

I am finding it harder and harder to get people to play this game with me. It has great potential, but the developers don't seem to learn from their mistakes. To be fair, every game has bugs, and always will have them. But knowingly launching a major patch with game-breaking bugs on a weekend is just silly.

And I pretty confident FD will not admit that this was a mistake, and gloss over this whole situation, only to repeat it again with the next major release.

Very disappointing overall.
 
To all those who are justifying and rationalising the game mechanic of continuation of player effects while offline ( not game effects). This is a game! A game that was created more than 30 years ago before game developers discovered this strategy of bribing players into logging more game time. Before farmville, wow and all the other sadly addictive games that are now available. It is sad that FD are going down this road and rewarding game time above gameplay. And before you say it has to be so because of X, Y or Z. There are always solutions to tweak the mechanic to work as intended. As a casual gamer I am headed out to the rim of populated space still playing open and am grateful that opportunity exists. I also think it kind of sad that the community created player groups such as mercs of mikunn, code, AEDC, crimson state etc, to some degree have had their concept hijacked by powerplay.
 
Unfortunately, while i disagree with reputation decay, the merit decay is a necessity. It is the chosen method on determining how much effort players of different powers have put into the progress of their power recently. (And awarding nominations accordingly, not to mention the weekly payout. )

Their decay is essential for this mechanic to work.

There are better and more elegant ways to do this.

Give Cr rewards for performing faction specific actions as you go, rather than a Car bonus at the end of a cycle. Use merits to determine perks and module access only (if modules come back), and use the weekly merits gained for any other types of reward.

Keep an end of cycle Cr bonus. But tie that to how well your entire faction does, not how well you individually do.
 
It's in a game-designer's interest to make their games as habituating as possible.

This is never true. If you make a game in this way you're no longer competing just with other games in the genre, but with all other games. When that Mad Max game comes out in a few months I am taking a hiatus from Elite. This is a fact. The same with Arkham Knight. That doesn't mean I hate Elite or anything, it's just what I (and most other gamers) do. I have limited gaming time, and for a few weeks at least I'm going to be on those games exclusively.

My Elite game is going to decay in that time. My progress corrode. When I come back to Elite I'm going to have to work again simply to get back qwhere I was when I left it. Give that, am I really going to come back? Am I going to want to retread old ground again? I might, I don't know, but many won't.

Any game which tries to tie you to playing it like this is rather arrogantly saying "this is the only game you should be playing! You don't need any other games!". This is wrong, and a kamikaze tactic in the design. FDev should reverse this course sooner rather than later.
 
I am not really fond of their current marketing strategy, even though i know everyone is a critic in this case;
but i just want to chime in one thought for this thread. In my opinion i believe the most exciting part of elite dangerous is the future prospect of the planetary landing expansion and other expansions such as ship interiors and space station interiors. And im sure thats a huge selling point for this game for alot of people. Its why i beta backed ED, i also know im one singular individual too, and i understand that everyone has something that they want in this game-but surely im not alone in being excited in "space gta" but its the #1 thing they have been quiet about and have not said anything. Not asking for a date, just a "we are working on it" or "its in R&D".
But correct me if im wrong but its been over half a year maybe even more (i lost track) since they have said a word about it.

remember this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yd-m9AR7mY&ab_channel=FrontierDevelopments

Yeah this video was awesome, though some of the guys featured in the video have since left Frontier. I think Ben Parry went to CiG to work on Star Citizen. Generally my faith in FDEV has not really been high since release and I can honestly say that it's going to take something really special to restore it. Have zero interest in PP and it's mechanics, I backed the game because I wanted a modern Elite II type experience with planetary landing.
 
Personally I would prefer that they delay the Planetary Landings etc and bed down the economy and missions.
And rather than messing with fuel and integrity settings to slow people down/ force them into smaller ships, they should make the newly released ships much more expensive (but with a performance improvement over older ships).
A DB Explorer with a 4 LY jump range improvement over a similar kitted Asp, and with a few more equipment slots but costing 3 X as much... I believe someone who loves the Exploration role would pay up.
After all, economics takes a back seat to new toys that improve a role you are keen on (well from a personal point of view anyway).

i think that will always be worked on, david braben did say that this game will go on for 10 years and its one of those "long term" like some mmos.
but the economy will always be worked on and so will the missions so saying that could doom plantery landings to never come out lol. but you cant deny missions and economy is not better than it was in 2014.
and im not looking for it to come out super early or anything but a "we're working on it" would be great
 
Yeah this video was awesome, though some of the guys featured in the video have since left Frontier. I think Ben Parry went to CiG to work on Star Citizen. Generally my faith in FDEV has not really been high since release and I can honestly say that it's going to take something really special to restore it. Have zero interest in PP and it's mechanics, I backed the game because I wanted a modern Elite II type experience with planetary landing.

Tom Kewell - in fact a few people were sacked just after Christmas, I think 13 "content creators". As to Ben's point in this thread I wonder if they were pushed out by unseen forces to make sure the game went down a certain path?

I realise its just tinfoilhattery but at this point nothing would surprise me about Frontier.

I once applied for a job at Frontier - glad I didn't get it. Seems like too many egos in play and no being a yes man I wouldn't have been a cultural fit.
 
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Yeah this video was awesome, though some of the guys featured in the video have since left Frontier. I think Ben Parry went to CiG to work on Star Citizen. Generally my faith in FDEV has not really been high since release and I can honestly say that it's going to take something really special to restore it. Have zero interest in PP and it's mechanics, I backed the game because I wanted a modern Elite II type experience with planetary landing.

i hope the expansions will help you regain that trust lol.
but seriously they need to really market those expansions cause thats what will make or break this game.
cause as far as i know it there are going to be other space genre games coming out as possible competition to ED
 

Scudmungus

Banned
Tom Kewell - in fact a few people were sacked just after Christmas, I think 13 "content creators". As to Ben's point in this thread I wonder if they were pushed out by unseen forces to make sure the game went down a certain path?


More likley artists an the like. Always layoffs after big push - can only reassign so many bodies an never need as many bodies as when developing.

Still, I n I appreciate the conspriracy vibe :D
 
Tom Kewell - in fact a few people were sacked just after Christmas, I think 13 "content creators". As to Ben's point in this thread I wonder if they were pushed out by unseen forces to make sure the game went down a certain path?

I realise its just tinfoilhattery but at this point nothing would surprise me about Frontier.

I once applied for a job at Frontier - glad I didn't get it. Seems like too many egos in play and no being a yes man I wouldn't have been a cultural fit.

Tinfoil hattery can be fun :)

Not sure what you mean by forcing the game down a certain path, but there is something fishy going on. I kinda suspected that power play was rushed out so the that xbox crowd had some sort of eternal grind to keep them busy without complaining too much. I just don't see how they can release this on a console this summer, as generally console games have to be feature complete-ish.
 
There are better and more elegant ways to do this.

Give Cr rewards for performing faction specific actions as you go, rather than a Car bonus at the end of a cycle. Use merits to determine perks and module access only (if modules come back), and use the weekly merits gained for any other types of reward.

Keep an end of cycle Cr bonus. But tie that to how well your entire faction does, not how well you individually do.

In the beta forum I suggested merit multipliers that increase according to both highest rating achieved during a single pledge, and number of consecutive weeks pledged. This way, even if the current merit decay remained, it would be easier for the more devoted pledgers to get back to their chosen rating each week.

Other rating based awards can also be unlocks instead of weekly conditionals, such as the commodity multiplier and the nominations, while weekly conditionals can be nonessential bonuses such as the credit payouts and, consequently, the scaling penalties for defection and cooldowns for leaving. I like the end of cycle bonus idea based on the power's galactic ranking at the end of a cycle.
 
Tom Kewell - in fact a few people were sacked just after Christmas, I think 13 "content creators". As to Ben's point in this thread I wonder if they were pushed out by unseen forces to make sure the game went down a certain path?

I realise its just tinfoilhattery but at this point nothing would surprise me about Frontier.

I once applied for a job at Frontier - glad I didn't get it. Seems like too many egos in play and no being a yes man I wouldn't have been a cultural fit.

It's all speculation, isn't it? Such a small percentage of FD are active on the forums that to try and guess what the internal politics are makes the old joke about 3 blind men trying to describe an elephant seem scientific. Having said that, and mindful that it's normal that users come up with absolutely loopy rationales for the flaws in the software they use, I'd love it if someone spilled the beans on the development culture inside FD. The bugs that slip through make me want to fix their workflow.
 
On the topic of habituating players to play E: D and PP every day or at least weekly, game designers should encourage it by creating compelling content, not by making game mechanics which force you to play the game, or worse yet, addictive activities.

We have an entire segment of games which already do that - "Free"-to-Play and Pay-to-Win games -, but thankfully E: D did not go that way for their funding. It doesn't make sense for them to incorporate mechanics which are designed to separate gamers from their money, when no money is to be extracted by such mechanics.

What I'd like, is merit decay scaled based on total playtime, in such a way that player 1 can reach the same rank as player 2. It will take much longer for player 1 in real world weeks, but the rank acquirable vs total playtime should be the same.

This is what I'm leaning towards as well - essentially Rating would be like XP in other games.

The other option would be to create two (or more) streams of rewards. Current decay-enabled system catering to HC gamers could give those players specific rewards - perhaps high-tier mods -, while Faction rewards system with no decay could give something else, such as an increasing discount from that Power's stores.

I'm trying to think of games that don't disproportionately reward dedicated players, if only in terms of skill-gained through time in-game. Farmville? World of Warcraft?
Maybe tiddly-winks?

If this was a stab at the OP, you might want to re-read it. I acknowledged that I'm fine with HC players getting more perks, but I'm not fine with how FD fails entirely to give incentives for casuals to participate in PP. If more people take part in PP it's a win for FD, HC players, casuals, and the game in general!

It's not a zero-sum game. Both HC players and casuals can and should be rewarded from PP.
 
Decay is not a necessity, nor essential. That is the way the devs have implemented Merit/Reputation decay, but there's no reason they couldn't change the decay system to encourage casuals to participate in PowerPlay, while still keeping existing PP mechanics intact.



It takes "at most (if you're right at the extremes of reputation) around 20 days," here from Sandro himself.

I shouldn't have used the word "zero" in the context in OP, though, fixed.

Decay is necessary. If it wasn't there, someone could amass the 10k merit threshold & quite happily rake in 50m CR each week by doing nothing at all. Not to mention nothing would get done (preparing,expanding,fortifying) because once everyone got to the magic 10k limit there would be no incentive to do so. As for the rate of decay, lets see what percentage it actually is before making judgements.

it IS necessary.
Just imagine the following...a player reaches the 10k, not a problem without decay right? one or two months and he has it.
now he goes away for a year. 52 weeks. he gain 5 million per week.
Now after a year he comes back and has 260 millions on his account. for doing nothing.
not to mention that no one would play powerplay anymore as soon as they got all the stuff they want and the 10k bonus.

also the decay is not as bad as you think. it rewards a player for actually playing, since everything you grind carries over to the next weeks (50% - 25% - 12.5% - 0%), so if you grind like 400 in the first week (im at 390 or so with my t6) you will have rank 2 for 3 weeks (400 in week 1, 200 in week 2, 100 in week 3) in that time you get that faction bonus (for me its the 5% trade voucher)
 
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It's all speculation, isn't it? Such a small percentage of FD are active on the forums that to try and guess what the internal politics are makes the old joke about 3 blind men trying to describe an elephant seem scientific. Having said that, and mindful that it's normal that users come up with absolutely loopy rationales for the flaws in the software they use, I'd love it if someone spilled the beans on the development culture inside FD. The bugs that slip through make me want to fix their workflow.

I'm working on it ;) I have a plan to get Ed Lewis and/or Michael Brookes drunk in the spa at LaveCon and spill the beans :p
 
In the beta forum I suggested merit multipliers that increase according to both highest rating achieved during a single pledge, and number of consecutive weeks pledged. This way, even if the current merit decay remained, it would be easier for the more devoted pledgers to get back to their chosen rating each week.

Other rating based awards can also be unlocks instead of weekly conditionals, such as the commodity multiplier and the nominations, while weekly conditionals can be nonessential bonuses such as the credit payouts and, consequently, the scaling penalties for defection and cooldowns for leaving. I like the end of cycle bonus idea based on the power's galactic ranking at the end of a cycle.

Actually, in light of Klab's reasoning that a lack of merit decay leads to a lack in effort and motivation to maintain a Power through fortification, and through promoting further expansion (where necesary), perhaps merit multipliers would not be a great idea, as it also means that personal gain would eclipse actual Power gain. You might get the bonus merits, but at the same time only a set actual number of commodities are delivered or a set actual number of opposition killed, meaning that underminers and resistors can gain the upper hand in the real (in-universe) universe.

However, perhaps commodity allowances can be multiplied according to number of consecutive weeks pledged (in addition to the current system of being based on the rating achieved), and should be unlockable rather than dependent on your current rating, as should preparation nominations.

I wonder also if all other benefits (e.g. Mr. Li's exploration payout bonus) except credit pay should also be unlockable instead of weekly rating-dependent; or if that is too overpowered, can last two cycles at the topmost rank achieved before expiring due to rating demotion? That allows people who have reached the topmost tiers to benefit from them instead of having to worry about spending all their time maintaining their rating, while still giving them a different personal reason to maintain their rating. These benefits will be revoked upon leaving a Power by either current means, and must be re-earned from the bottom if you rejoin the same Power. (The special modules would have their own rules: unlockable always but no longer available or covered by station repairing and insurance upon leaving that Power.)

But I agree that merit decay is necessary, although the rate and method of decay should also be continually audited by the devs. What is also needed is more positively-reinforced ways to keep being devoted to a Power over a longer period of time, in addition to the threat of not remaining devoted. I hope these suggestions might be considered.
 
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Surely it's relatively simple to balance it, you just have to make it so that decay is relative to your contribution. Higher ranks or higher levels will require consecutive contributions over the weeks in order to maintain that level, whereas at lower levels (say up to rank 4) your rep remains intact so long as you make a contribution each week. That way you aren't hammering the casual players out of the game and only catering to those who don't have families or jobs to try and balance against.

I've been on ED since launch, and right now I'm not impressed at all with how it's all come out because I really don't see what the rewards are versus the risks. Combat tokens in particular are just loony, why is an Anaconda worth the same as a sidewinder?
 
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