Have you ever pirated in a wing? I did it a few times, never again. It's a complete mess to coordinate, you get less cargo since you have to split it. Trade ships are made of paper as it is, you don't need 4 players to take one out.heheh, sure JC
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Really?
4 pirates versus 4 miners?
4 griefers versus 4 traders?
I've not heard of explorers going out in to the black in Wings, so I cannot compare.
Mining, if your away from any RES, then there is no benefit to a Wing at all.
Having other miners near by is also a bad move as drones don't care what they pick up or from where, so who ever runs the most drones will end up grabbing the most ore.
And being away from a RES gives escorts nothing to do - so no one will sit next to while you mine for 3 hours or longer.
So for miners (in group or open), Wings is a pointless feature.
Traders, grab yourself a Type 9, and start asking for escorts - people know how little you get from vouchers, and the trader cannot send direct payments to escorts. And messing about trying to drop cargo for escorts is time wasting for all involved.
4 Traders in a Wing in a private group has a benefit, but not in open - 4 defenceless ships, that is not going to end well when a wing of pirates or a wing of killers see them - and traders know that, so they won't do it.
Wings was only a good update for traders who play in Mobius or other private groups where your surroundings are more controlled.
I seem to remember in the 20 ton is killing piracy thread that demands increase according to the number of ships in a wing.
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![[VR] Mad Mike](https://forums-cdn.zaonce.net/data/avatars/m/27/27910.jpg?1553527108){kind=avatar}
Hi
a little segue here but, whilst i have not tried it yet, i have been told that wings for miners is amazing, because if you find a good asteroid, everyone gets a full allowance from it so if you huddle together, you fill your boots really quickly, and also the combined firepower of every members turrets makes mince meat out of the majority of pirates.
I have yet to try it however, but if it is not true i will be dissapointed as i was looking forward to checkign it out
You're only comparing a wing vs a wing purely for combat. Even then, 4 traders vs a single pirate would have an advantage, no? 4 traders in a wing vs 4 pirates in a wing, is better than just one player vs 4 pirates in a wing, is it not? You don't have to outrun the pirates, only your friends
I'll give you exploration, I wasnt thinking about that when I said all professions. Exploration has no benefit from being in a wing. Unless, does exploration data give you the 5% voucher?
Mining has a benefit if you have 2 miners and 2 combat ships to defend them from pirates while they mine. It's actually pretty lucrative for both sides.
Trading has the benefit of the 5% voucher, if you can find a non diminishing trade route, or a route with more than paying comodity, you can make a lot of money by doing it.
I ask for 20% of a full load, more if they only have a little bit of cargo. I can't see a trader ever giving up 80% of their full load of cargo.
I hang out on mostly rare routes where I'm lucky to get 10-20 tons because the traders only have up to 50 tons max. They mostly have around 30 tons.
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Basically as I see it the simple solution would be:
1) make cargo canisters have a time limit before they expire, all the crap in USS's would be metal alloys or some stuff like that to balance out. Then increase the limit of cargo dropped so pirates are happy
2) Add a rating for murderers that is FUGITIVE if they kill x amount of clean players this rating gets stuck to them for seven days cant be bought off cant be killed of with a sidey its there for seven days. If they continue killing its increased. This way FDEV can see all those with stupidly high FIGITIVE ratings are ruining the game and can take action to sort it out, im not saying joe public who gets annoyed with a certain T7 in a USS asking for tech and blows it away im talking about pvp.
3) Make exploring sales data distance specific - I have gone out 1000ly and still sold data for as much as it was at just over 20ly.
4) Make payment of kills damage specific - four players in a instance killing a group and some twit flies in out of nowhere and puts the last shot into a 250k anny shouldnt get the 250k it should be spread out with the ones that caused the most damage.
5) Make mining work faster - nothing more tedious than sitting there blowing up a rock to find out that after x chunks the asteroid becomes immune to lasers so you have to find another one. Remove that bit and they will be happy. Metal rich should mean decent yields not the same crappy ores you find in crap fields.
6) Make the trade data in the BBS panel show the last prices from your last visit to x system (stored locally on the machine to save server fragging) this will make trade runs brilliant. Also allow players to get trade data from VISITING a system and not docking (like Elite/Frontier/FFE) this would make it better as players could travel around the galaxy looking for the best prices not actually docking if they dont want to.
7) Have special badges for players to be daring - things like a SagA badge thats a black whole sort of thing for ship decals, or a ive been to the rim of the galaxy badge. Mad 1Mil in one run badge etc. Give people things to strive for to keep them interested its the lack of things that makes people pick up ED then get bored.
8) Flesh out the PP element - actually have wars not just a pen and paper fantasy of x person fortifying and y person undermining actually get players to fly across the border and attack trade routes and stations, cause havoc in the name of their chosen PP character. Players want to feel that they are part of something not just moving parcels from x to y to fill in some imaginary spreadsheet on FDEV's computer.
9) Flesh out wings a bit more - allow wings to see the destinations targeted by the wing so each player can wing up and then travel at the slowest ship speed to the target this will allow players to wing up and fly with their mates possibly escorting a T7 full of palladium
Its simple adjustments like this that actually would make the game come alive, being a coder myself I know these are simple adjustments that wouldnt break the game but would make the whole experience much more interesting for all of us.
1) make cargo canisters have a time limit before they expire, all the crap in USS's would be metal alloys or some stuff like that to balance out. Then increase the limit of cargo dropped so pirates are happy
2) Add a rating for murderers that is FUGITIVE if they kill x amount of clean players this rating gets stuck to them for seven days cant be bought off cant be killed of with a sidey its there for seven days. If they continue killing its increased. This way FDEV can see all those with stupidly high FIGITIVE ratings are ruining the game and can take action to sort it out, im not saying joe public who gets annoyed with a certain T7 in a USS asking for tech and blows it away im talking about pvp.
3) Make exploring sales data distance specific - I have gone out 1000ly and still sold data for as much as it was at just over 20ly.
4) Make payment of kills damage specific - four players in a instance killing a group and some twit flies in out of nowhere and puts the last shot into a 250k anny shouldnt get the 250k it should be spread out with the ones that caused the most damage.
5) Make mining work faster - nothing more tedious than sitting there blowing up a rock to find out that after x chunks the asteroid becomes immune to lasers so you have to find another one. Remove that bit and they will be happy. Metal rich should mean decent yields not the same crappy ores you find in crap fields.
6) Make the trade data in the BBS panel show the last prices from your last visit to x system (stored locally on the machine to save server fragging) this will make trade runs brilliant. Also allow players to get trade data from VISITING a system and not docking (like Elite/Frontier/FFE) this would make it better as players could travel around the galaxy looking for the best prices not actually docking if they dont want to.
7) Have special badges for players to be daring - things like a SagA badge thats a black whole sort of thing for ship decals, or a ive been to the rim of the galaxy badge. Mad 1Mil in one run badge etc. Give people things to strive for to keep them interested its the lack of things that makes people pick up ED then get bored.
8) Flesh out the PP element - actually have wars not just a pen and paper fantasy of x person fortifying and y person undermining actually get players to fly across the border and attack trade routes and stations, cause havoc in the name of their chosen PP character. Players want to feel that they are part of something not just moving parcels from x to y to fill in some imaginary spreadsheet on FDEV's computer.
9) Flesh out wings a bit more - allow wings to see the destinations targeted by the wing so each player can wing up and then travel at the slowest ship speed to the target this will allow players to wing up and fly with their mates possibly escorting a T7 full of palladium
Its simple adjustments like this that actually would make the game come alive, being a coder myself I know these are simple adjustments that wouldnt break the game but would make the whole experience much more interesting for all of us.
The way the instancing manager works, it creates isolation between players, but not equally. It is bias towards the more aggressive player being able to find a target to attack, but isolates the supportive player who would help fight off the aggressor.
It is sort of one sided, which is what I think creates the situations that lead to the reasons why a normally non-Pvp player doesn't want to play in Open.
For example, if a transporter is trying to move cargo around a system... a pirate can find him and drag him out of sight to molest that player. You interdict a transport, it becomes an instance no other player can see and so it's just you and him, which is often one-sided because what pirate is going to interdict a target more dangerous than themselves? Only really dumb ones. Meanwhile, you have bounty hunters roaming around looking for pirates to pvp with and would literally jump at the chance to aide a transport ship being molested by a pirate, because that is what pays them credits. However, the way the instancing manager is set up, how does the transport player call for help? how does the bounty hunter player respond? I'm sure there are plenty of White-hat Pvpers who would do nothing but partol systems looking for the Black-hat pvpers that all the PvEer say is the reason they don't play in Open-Mode.
This is like playing Cops and Robbers, except the Cops are blindfolded and the Distressed Damsels are tied to a tree, while the Robbers can freely run around and are the only players who can score any points in the game.
It is sort of one sided, which is what I think creates the situations that lead to the reasons why a normally non-Pvp player doesn't want to play in Open.
For example, if a transporter is trying to move cargo around a system... a pirate can find him and drag him out of sight to molest that player. You interdict a transport, it becomes an instance no other player can see and so it's just you and him, which is often one-sided because what pirate is going to interdict a target more dangerous than themselves? Only really dumb ones. Meanwhile, you have bounty hunters roaming around looking for pirates to pvp with and would literally jump at the chance to aide a transport ship being molested by a pirate, because that is what pays them credits. However, the way the instancing manager is set up, how does the transport player call for help? how does the bounty hunter player respond? I'm sure there are plenty of White-hat Pvpers who would do nothing but partol systems looking for the Black-hat pvpers that all the PvEer say is the reason they don't play in Open-Mode.
This is like playing Cops and Robbers, except the Cops are blindfolded and the Distressed Damsels are tied to a tree, while the Robbers can freely run around and are the only players who can score any points in the game.
YOU need to adress why it si more "offputting", not try to make it more inviting
Actually I do think trade ships could use a buff in general, but in this case I was talking about a financial buff.
Do I really have to address why the open is more offputting for non combat professions? I think the reasons are pretty obvious.
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But a financial buff would benefit combat professions as well. The incentives I proposed would not.
Congratulations. What do you suggest we do about it?
Not if you don't buff bounties or stolen goods. Also I'm pretty sure fsd changes help pirates as well as traders.
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simply put, if I have sewage leaking into my basement, putting in a pool table and a bar in it will not get my friends to come over and hang out.
This is more akin to spraying air freshener, but I digress. Doing nothing and assuring everyone that it's working as intended won't accomplish much either.
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I agree. What are we talking about again?
Because Pirates never demand for traders to abandon goods.
I agree there should be a mechanism that prevents abandoning goods in a hostile interdiction scenario.
Giving traders and other non combat roles, a reason to play in open.
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No disagreement here, id like a way to "raise the piracy flag" so to speak. One that prevents cargo abandoning. If there was a requirement to be the one who bought the cargo, or blocking of cargo abandonment, would that change your mind an financial open buff?
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No. My opinion remains the modes are fine the way they are. I do not share your opinion Open needs to be incentivized. Still firmly holding the opinion player interaction is the only reward Open should have.
This is just purely having a discussion out of curiousity. For discussion sake if you will.
Edit: it caused you to nuance and specify your proposal and my curiousity was satisfied. We both came out ahead
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Jordan, I think there is a point, with your assertion, that hasn't been addressed. What makes open worthy of incentivizing over the other modes? Why should open be propped up? Shouldn't each mode be left to their own fates?
I'm not asking about why open might want to be more attractive. I'm not asking about why open has image problems. I am asking why open should have an artificial advantage over the other modes? I believe that each of the modes can and do support just what population they can. After that if open has a population problem it's just demonstrated what the community wants in Elite.
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