Almost a year later, Multiplayer is still a mess

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nothing wrong with an instance 32,I like the fact groups are only small and can have little impact,An instance of say 120 we would potentialy have Much larger groups Of Bumholes going out to spoil others people game experiance.Making instances larger is just Guilds by stealth
 
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It's pointless to compare ED with games that do not track e.g. bullets one-by-one.

Fair point, but there are many games out there that do a far more complex job of flight modelling and ballistic tracking.... both in the air and on the land, and with a far greater number of players than seem to appear in Ed instances. But, you are right it is probably silly to compare but it is hard not to when playing something like IL2 that tracks individual bullets and uses incredibly complex fm's in servers of 130 people, in 2003 !

I know no real world to run and no stellar forge and I am no expert so my point might or might not be valid so I ask the experts out there then.. would ED mp play better if it had a similar client server setup as say compared to Eve or WOW or any of the other mmo's out there ? and if the answer is truly yes why on Earths name did ED not implement this.

Is the sad truth FD really wanted to save cash/make more ?
 
Basically you have Clippers (maneuverability 2) which can out turn Vultures (maneuverability 9) and cobras (maneuverability 6). Let me guess, it's because their more expensive. LOL. Vulture is a combat ship and clipper is heavy multipurpose, weighs more, blah blah, blah. It's a bit of a joke, flight assisting your ass off just to see the clipper pointed right at you. Loads of other stuff which I'm sure people have covered but this has been my experience over the past week. I'm an empire player by the way so I'm looking forward to having this - spin on a dime clipper but lolwhut. Also, if this is a hack (not saying it is and all that bull) then enforce the EULA.
 
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It's pointless to compare ED with games that do not track e.g. bullets one-by-one.

Planetside does. Joint Operations does.

But the point of this thread is not to compare games. My point is to suggest client/server sessions for a limited amount of locations, enabling us to have massive space battles at select locations without adding a ton of hosting cost for Frontier.

This would be a HUGE benefit for community goals too, just think about it: I could either ferry stuff from A to B in some random spot of space, or participate in a community goal where there's 100 people in supercruise doing a massive convoy.

Or how about Powerplay? Your reward for participating in Powerplay could be that you get to fight in super-instances with tons of people. Personally this would make me play powerplay right now, and I'd be surely pledging for a power at all times.


And you guys who don't want that, no harm done! You just play the game like normal and nothing changes for you if you don't want it to.
 
All you can play offline are the tutorials, I wouldn't call that most of the Game ;)

Problem with the limitation is not just P2P, a Warzone with 100 of Players is something that would require a whole lot of Data to go back and fort. Too much for your standart internetconnection.

I disagree I have played games back in the day with 256+ players and that was before we had massed broadband on a simple 128Kb connection, heck even Freelancer can whack out a 128 player server and that was out in 2000. Freelancer has one brilliant thing everyone can see cargo, enemies etc without others not being able to scoop etc.
 
Star Citizen will be better no doubt! :p

But seriously: We have a mostly-offline game at the moment, with players often not noticing when the matchmaking fails because you can play just as well alone. People asking where everyone else is on the forums... it's not that they're far out, it's that for some the P2P just doesn't work.

THIS IS NOT A DEBATE ABOUT OFFLINE MODE.
This is about the issues of P2P networking and the limitations thereof, as well as my suggestion on how to improve it.



I've warned repeatedly about the problems and challenges of P2P in a multiplayer game like this. I've warned the Nornware guys (Space Beast Terror Fright) but they too said that "they know what they're doing".
Turns out that their main dev almost burned out of the problems of P2P. Why? Because you can't have consistency, availability, and partition tolerance all at once. You can trick a bit with eventual consistency, but the problem remains that P2P inherently brings with it the question of how to define truth. You can't establish facts when two equal-level participants talk to each other. You start giving one or the other authority over things in the game world - but then you get the problem of partitioning, which is when participants drop out and perhaps even back in again. If this sounds complex, that's because it is. I've spent the past 15 years of my life learning about this. It's *really* difficult. But don't get me wrong, I totally understand why Frontier chose P2P for Elite Dangerous, and their argument for that is sound. I do have a suggestion, but first let me state the current issues.

So what problems do we see in Elite right now:

1) Low player numbers per instance.
That's because P2P degrades for everyone when one participant with a bad connection joins. This is terrible for Elite because that's the reason why you often can't see your wingmate. Either he or you just happened to be put into an instance with an already low health, and it won't take both of you. There's no solution for this within P2P. This is the biggest issue with Elite at the moment.

2) Bad performance.
Look around in supercruise. Often times you can see ship trails jump and shudder around. Worse, interdictions get unfair because of the shudders and jerking around. One bad client ruins the entire instance for everyone in it. Dogfights work perfectly fine, but then everything goes to hell if one other player with a bad connection joins. Proper matchmaking can only help to a certain degree here.

3) Inconsistent world state.
Allegedly, Jesus said to Pontius Pilate: "What is truth?"
I am certain that he was a programmer of distributed systems, because that question is fundamental for a working multiplayer game. Elite currently "mostly" works. Mostly. It utterly fails when the situation isn't perfect. A few examples: You can duplicate mining fragments if there's more than one client in the instance. You might see cargo that your wingman can't. You can have visible cargo that you can't scoop up (also only when more than 1 player in that instance). You can see different elements in asteroids than your wingman. A wingman shooting a mining laser which you have placed prospector drone on will find that it will spew fragments indefinitely, even after the asteroid has been depleted.


I think P2P is here to stay for the general universe, and most of these issues can be resolved by server-moderation, just like they did with the landing pad assignments and the refinery. The point of truth is no longer one of the peers but a central server. Using a lightweight backend, for example nodejs with redis as storage, will support tens of thousands of clients per server, and you can scale that out if you're choosing the right way to do the business transactions (idempotent operations, optimistic locking, etc)

But for central areas of the game, we absolutely need client/server. This doesn't mean Frontier should host thousands of game servers - just a couple dozen would suffice. These servers could host client/server sessions for warzones, Sol, Eravate, and other well-frequented systems and places. These client/server sessions could be used for all parts of the game: Supercruise, normal flight, you name it. They could be assigned dynamically and support a large number of players (128, 256, maybe even 500 or more). If a server is full or not available, the game could just fall back to P2P.

This would allow for...


1) Giant warzones that really do feel like there's a war going on

2) Systems that feel alive and buzzing with human traffic

3) Much more interaction and communication between commanders, something Elite more or less completely lacks atm.

Best of all, Frontier could scale the available servers up and down depending on current budget and playerbase. They wouldn't lose the flexibility of P2P, but they'd still have the ability to make community goals and warzones actually a giant thing that everyone wants to participate because it's something you experience anywhere else at that time.


I'm posting this in the hopes that this catches the eye of someone at Frontier. But also for everyone to discuss. I know the game works "most of the time" and I'm not saying that they did a bad job. However, before you disagree saying that we don't "need" any of this, I implore you to think about this. For you nothing would change. You don't have to participate in a big warzone. But people who WANT that sort of thing, would then have the option to. At the moment, they don't.

And I really want Elite to become a little... bigger in it's multiplayer ambition :)


Agreed? Disagreed? Bananas?

'Bananas',...Don't really give a hair about your 'allows' 1, 2, and 3.
 
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Stopped reading when I got to the part where you said 'mostly-offline game' in reference to a game that requires an internet connection to play; I assume this level of accuracy and objective assessment is the bar for the rest of the text and therefore not interested.. Thank you for playing. NEXT!

Fk Ventus...... this is the kinda of response you get when somebody does not agree with you but is not smart enough to articulate a proper rebuttal as to why they disagree. Dont be a ventus.

OP makes good points. I was interested in this game but would not have purchased if it was not for the multiplayer aspect of this game. Multiplayer sold me.... but I have been in and out of gateway/eravate region for last few weeks and almost never see other players to interact with. Right now I feel torn if I am getting enough enjoyment out of this game to justify spending money to purchase new expansion.... OK we are getting more stuff to do.. (planetary landings) but just more stuff to do alone????
 
OP, the drum about P2P vs C/S has been banged to death. Even should FD decide they wanted to do it, it would require a massive effort at this stage, and delaying other plans. Not to mention a load of refinement and testing of the changed network code which would leave months of new bugs.
[...]

I agree with it being a lot of work. But while i would love to play this game with friends (like i do in other games), i have to be very picky on who i play with in this game. So my question is: what good are new features, if the base game has an inherent flaw? Don't get me wrong, i like flying around, but it's much better with friends, as long as things work fine. Which they usually only do for a limited while, before the technical problems mess everything up.

So all in all, your statement for me is like "yes, this car has unreliable brakes, the transmission is shot and the engine dies every 15 kilometers, but repairing that is not worth it, let's rather spend a lot of money on leather seats and a paintjob".
 
+1. In order to find a solution to a problem you must first identify the problem. Then you must push aside all the waffle and " opinions " of the ignorant ( myself included, I know nothing about how internet and online gaming works) and come to a consensus on how to solve the problem with those who know what they are talking about.

In other words, ignore all the bull posts and isolate those who, like you, have solutions to the problems.
 
+1. In order to find a solution to a problem you must first identify the problem. Then you must push aside all the waffle and " opinions " of the ignorant ( myself included, I know nothing about how internet and online gaming works) and come to a consensus on how to solve the problem with those who know what they are talking about.

In other words, ignore all the bull posts and isolate those who, like you, have solutions to the problems.

Or one could argue that people who know what they're doing have already identified the problem (early on), weighed up the available options and made a design decision based on the best compromise for all (including Frontier themselves in terms of cost) instead of a solution that works fine for those close to a server location, but terrible for anyone playing from a distance. People need to stop underestimating Frontier's understanding of the problem. It was a deliberate decision to go P2P - sure, costs come into it, but so too does the performance for players and to suggest otherwise is selling Frontier short.
 
Or one could argue that people who know what they're doing have already identified the problem (early on), weighed up the available options and made a design decision based on the best compromise for all (including Frontier themselves in terms of cost) instead of a solution that works fine for those close to a server location, but terrible for anyone playing from a distance. People need to stop underestimating Frontier's understanding of the problem. It was a deliberate decision to go P2P - sure, costs come into it, but so too does the performance for players and to suggest otherwise is selling Frontier short.

Yes, they would still need to ignore the waffle that would come later though.
 
But for central areas of the game, we absolutely need client/server. This doesn't mean Frontier should host thousands of game servers - just a couple dozen would suffice. These servers could host client/server sessions for warzones, Sol, Eravate, and other well-frequented systems and places. These client/server sessions could be used for all parts of the game: Supercruise, normal flight, you name it. They could be assigned dynamically and support a large number of players (128, 256, maybe even 500 or more). If a server is full or not available, the game could just fall back to P2P.

You'd need at least three regional clusters to avoid latency issues - so that's three times the cost, plus additional maintenance. Just to add larger scale islands? And that doesn't even address technical issue of the player who is lagging and blaming everyone else, which then adversely affects the experience for his pals/wingmen - when the issue is actually that cheap ISP he signed up with having an overly contended infrastructure (I suspect a lot more common than people realise).

It seems like a lot of effort for marginal gains (and many players wouldn't consider the ability to have 60-odd players in a single island to be a benefit) to me.

Sorry, but it's bananas.
 
OP you make some very good points and highlight some very obvious issues with the game in its current state, especially the performance.
 
Good post!
This game has some problems making the multiplayer-experience really frustrating sometimes. I really hope FD finds a way to improve that!

Sorry but they can't. They've tried but have failed several times. The OP obviously foresaw the problems, but when you're selling a product the truth only hurts the sales..............and we can't have any of that now can we. Who knows, maybe FD will figure it out, one can only hope.
 
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