External View [A definitive discussion]

[Cmdr Andy B]

I believe so but I think we should start a poll to see how many agree.

I'm not sure people would welcome such a poll, maybe we should put a poll up to find out?

 

[Rog]

I really do hope that 90% of the space backdrop will be black dotted with stars, and nebula soup rare. Far greater issue for me than immersion breaking arguments against taking nice photos and videos.

David Braben on soupy nebulae:

We are modelling real world nebulae, but this is not the huge magenta and green clouds you see in some representations of space – this is as accurate as we can make it. If you fly to a nebula you will indeed see it from inside, but it will have a realistic, ethereal property, and you will be able to see it from nearby systems.

LINK

Hope they stick to that.

 

[Dejay]

Lol many thanks for the links! A really hilarious interview And informative too!

 

[P4UL]

I like the 3rd person view in FE2 and FE and I always used it when taking off from the surface of a planet, it's great watching your ship as it goes up through the atmosphere, seeing the planet getting smaller behind you etc.. It's like watching a real life space shuttle mission launch, except this time it's you that's going into space!

It would be a shame if everything you saw in the game was from inside the cockpit. At least give people the *choice* to use a 3rd person view for non-combat use.

I have thought of a way to avoid it being an issue with "balancing" example: 3rd person view would only be useable when your weapons are offline, and you would not be able to use it once your weapon systems are online. There would be a short cooldown period between powering down weapons, so there goes your "advantage". Also the 3rd person view camera speed would be slower than the 1st person view, thus making it useless for combat purposes.

As for some people complaining of immersion, well the explanation of "how can we see our ship from the outside?" would be the use of a tiny camera drone which orbits your ship outside and would be used by the on board computer to inspect the hull integrity, and check for damage etc.. but could also be used just to simply look at your ship from the outside.

 

[smsKONG]

If camera is wanted so much (can't say I'm bothered either way - would be nice but it's no deal breaker really is it!) then how about this-

Press your camera button and out pops a transmiting video camera.
This camera cannot move around; it can rotate and spin freely, but cannot move - it does not magically orbit your ship, it is not attached to your ship; it is dropped (possibly from cargo bay), you leave it behind you if flying forwards..
You control the camera with the look function - same buttons to activate and control; press look and switch betweem cockpit and fullscreen cam view. Would need a zoom function mapping in though really and would need a battery life or range (so that you could get head look in cockpit back!)
You can still control your ship but the camera will not automatically track you!
So if you drop the camera at full speed without stopping and proceed to look at the video it is transmitting your ship may well collide with something if you haven't checked for obstacles.

This means the camera will be useless in combat
You will be able to get lovely pictures with your ship anywhere you want it in the frame (it may take some getting there but it will be possible!)


If someone has already suggested this then very sorry - there are so many bloody threads knocking about on this topic at the moment, that I got bored wading through it all


EDIT - just read that interview; wahay for classical and lol at non of that dubstep crap

 

[Dejay]

Ok I made a REALLY shoddy try at a mockup for a hud monitor...
Don't hold my bad skills in gimping it against the overall idea lol
You would be able to look at it by turning your head and then you "snap" into fullscreen mode.

 

[insanephoton]

Sorry, I still don't get it. Both an abstract external view or a camera drone could have the same gameplay limitations, e.g. speed, fov (smaller is better because it looks better), visibility of stealthed enemies (and I find the notion that if you can see them with your eyes and not with your radar preposterous! But it's a compromise for better gameplay) or making your position known.


Personally, I think if you want to be stealthy and sneak up on someone, make sure you have painted your ship pitch black, and navigate carefully so that you don't occlude any stars or be on the backdrop of a planet while you approach someone. Else the scanner should go off immediately. Would give some skill to the whole stealth gameplay. Would also make anyone suspect who flies a black ship I really do hope that 90% of the space backdrop will be black dotted with stars, and nebula soup rare. Far greater issue for me than immersion breaking arguments against taking nice photos and videos.

A few points about the stealth mechanic as it currently works. The scanner works on heat emissions. When you activate stealth or 'silent running' the vents on your ship close to keep the heat inside, this means that you have to manage the heat or suffer damage when it hits 150%. To prevent damaging overheating, you can eject a heat sink if one is fitted or you have a choice between switching off systems or going out of stealth mode. In stealth mode you can get to within 300m of another ship before their scanners spot you. One final point about stealth mode is that entering it will drop your shields and they take a while to regenerate once you have exited stealth mode.

As for painting your ship black, fine if you're never going to move and will only use multi-cannon. As soon as you make any movement, even slight attitude adjustments, your ship's thrusters emit a bright exhaust jet that can be seen from several km away. Laser beams are also visible from a great distance in the game (though in reality you probably wouldn't see them unless it was a very dusty part of space).

 

[sdkfz2512]

All those in favor!

As stated in other posts, definetely in SP...For MP the vote is no, again, as stated in other posts. JMT.

Doc

 

[Dejay]

So if you're using thrusters, you will be seen visually, but the scanner won't pick you up?

Well one thing that could make the stealth gameplay more interesting with the camera drone would be that if someone is deploying his camera drone, you see his signature change, and the tracker knows his target is suspicious and you have to stop moving. The op proposal is that he couldn't be able to see you visually if not on scanner, but if he could that would make stealth more difficult but also more interesting.

 

[NeilF]

Sorry, I still don't get it. Both an abstract external view or a camera drone could have the same gameplay limitations, e.g. speed, fov (smaller is better because it looks better), visibility of stealthed enemies (and I find the notion that if you can see them with your eyes and not with your radar preposterous! But it's a compromise for better gameplay) or making your position known.

To me, the only "fixed" difference would be the ingame explanation. Maybe I misunderstood and drone vs external view isn't in contention? :S

Sorry, you're questioning limitation 3 ("If a ship/object is not shown on your scanner, it will not be shown in external view - This is clearly to game balance.")?

Yes, it is obviously "unrealistic" and is only there as a potential game balance - Personally I'm not sure it's even needed for the rarity of its requirement.

But even if it is needed, and employed, what is the problem? If you think about it, you're simply not seeing a ship you most likely didn't know was there, and couldn't see anyway

Nerfs are not that important, as I've said, I could glue a few raspberries with camera modules on the side of my car right now and drive with an VR headset. I get the gameplay challenge of limited view, but it feels utterly unrealistic to me. But I have no objections to nerfs as long as they don't make taking pictures too annoying.

Personally, I think if you want to be stealthy and sneak up on someone, make sure you have painted your ship pitch black, and navigate carefully so that you don't occlude any stars or be on the backdrop of a planet while you approach someone. Else the scanner should go off immediately. Would give some skill to the whole stealth gameplay. Would also make anyone suspect who flies a black ship I really do hope that 90% of the space backdrop will be black dotted with stars, and nebula soup rare. Far greater issue for me than immersion breaking arguments against taking nice photos and videos.

I basically concur, if we're still talking about that same limitation. I personally don't think it's needed given external view would mainly be used as an exception, rather than the rule.

 

[NeilF]

As stated in other posts, definetely in SP...For MP the vote is no, again, as stated in other posts. JMT.

Doc

If I've missed you reasoning, I apologise... What would you see the issue(s) being with offering an external view while in MP?

 

[NeilF]

Ok I made a REALLY shoddy try at a mockup for a hud monitor...
Don't hold my bad skills in gimping it against the overall idea lol
You would be able to look at it by turning your head and then you "snap" into fullscreen mode.

Yes, that's a nice idea and gives a beautiful impression of how it could be employed

The questions are of course though:-
1) Would it be permitted to be full screen or as good as (like you suggest), or only kept as a small screen?
2) What would the limitation be on its use? Along the lines of the limitations listed in the OP for example?

 

[noodle]

Yes, that's a nice idea and gives a beautiful impression of how it could be employed

The questions are of course though:-
1) Would it be permitted to be full screen or as good as (like you suggest), or only kept as a small screen?
2) What would the limitation be on its use? Along the lines of the limitations listed in the OP for example?

Looks nice. I'd keep it smaller though to avoid any accusations of combat advantage, and make it recordable/screenshotable for proper ship pr0n viewable outside the game.

 

[NeilF]

Looks nice. I'd keep it smaller though to avoid any accusations of combat advantage, and make it recordable/screenshotable for proper ship pr0n viewable outside the game.

That's one approach... But personally I think I'd miss a full screen (or most of screen) external view. I want to enjoy the moment, so if want to watch my ship docking and enjoy the view around me as this happens, I'd like to do it via a nice big view, not a postage stamp

Out of interest - If we went down your approach with a small screen for a drone's external view, what limitations (if any) would you see required? None? Could you still control your ship while also moving your drone around - ie: Business as usual?

 

[Maxeren]

Looks nice. I'd keep it smaller though to avoid any accusations of combat advantage, and make it recordable/screenshotable for proper ship pr0n viewable outside the game.

You should be forced to switch between the two in order for it not to become as you stated an advantage in combat, so the ship is not controlable while using the drone.

 

[noodle]

That's one approach... But personally I think I'd miss a full screen (or most of screen) external view. I want to enjoy the moment, so if want to watch my ship docking and enjoy the view around me as this happens, I'd like to do it via a nice big view, not a postage stamp

I'd prefer that, but I can understand the anti-immersion arguments, so a small view seems like a good compromise and something we're more likely to get.

Out of interest - If we went down your approach with a small screen for a drone's external view, what limitations (if any) would you see required? None? Could you still control your ship while also moving your drone around - ie: Business as usual?

BAU, except that the flight controls should switch to the drone. Can't control two things at once

 

[NeilF]

I'd prefer that, but I can understand the anti-immersion arguments, so a small view seems like a good compromise and something we're more likely to get.

OK... If it could be blown up to at least a reasonable size, that would be nice.

Of course the issue is with this approach is the game engine is then having to render two images, instead of just one? So could be a performance hit?

BAU, except that the flight controls should switch to the drone. Can't control two things at once

Shame you can't do course changes while viewing your ship externally? You'd be missing out on some fun there! If you could deploy the drone, move it, and then return your controls to your ship, while the drone was still deployed?

And surely you're going to get the same arguments from non-supporters in that they'll suggest you'll flick between the two views to gain a FOV advantage? (ie: Why the suggested 4-5 second deployment limitation was suggested in the OP).

 

[Riedquat]

You should be forced to switch between the two in order for it not to become as you stated an advantage in combat, so the ship is not controlable while using the drone.

As long as the ship carries on moving.

The whole idea is to be able to see your ship in all its glory, whilst traveling or mining or docking etc, I wouldn't want it like X-Rebirth where you have to stop your ship dead to access the computer.

I don't really understand how people think having an external view would be an advantage anyway, X3 had a nice external view, but you couldn't use it to control your ship and fight with , it would be impossible.

I think there is just a whole misunderstanding here about what people regard as an 'external view'.

Its purely aesthetics, its not something you could use to your advantage.

 

[NeilF]

As long as the ship carries on moving.

The whole idea is to be able to see your ship in all its glory, whilst traveling or mining or docking etc, I wouldn't want it like X-Rebirth where you have to stop your ship dead to access the computer.

I don't really understand how people think having an external view would be an advantage anyway, X3 had a nice external view, but you couldn't use it to control your ship and fight with , it would be impossible.

I think there is just a whole misunderstanding here about what people regard as an 'external view'.

Its purely aesthetics, its not something you could use to your advantage.

I think that's a limitation most people wanting an external view would be OK with. ie: You control the movement of your ship or your external droid, not both. And employ a few seconds "nerf" when deploying the droid and recovering it again?

 

[noodle]

Of course the issue is with this approach is the game engine is then having to render two images, instead of just one? So could be a performance hit?

That's someone else's problem to figure out

Shame you can't do course changes while viewing your ship externally? You'd be missing out on some fun there! If you could deploy the drone, move it, and then return your controls to your ship, while the drone was still deployed?

And surely you're going to get the same arguments from non-supporters in that they'll suggest you'll flick between the two views to gain a FOV advantage? (ie: Why the suggested 4-5 second deployment limitation was suggested in the OP).

*shrug*

Every idea has pros and cons. I'm not sure I care about it enough to pick apart the minutiae