No NPC SRV's - WTH?

[Varrag]

That's a lot of planets to program waypoints for a sort of bot's behavior to be meaningful. As much as I would like that to work I know realistically that it would be next to impossible to have a well executed AI SRV interaction...

Because of this I'm fine without having one rather than seeing an enemy SRV go from A-B----(get stuck in a random generated crater)---C?

I would have thought that's where those rocket boosters come handy because they can be freely rotated, so (presumably, with good AI) NPCs should be able to get un-stuck in most cases. I also suppose that NPC SRVs would be getting spawned upon us in same fashion as NPC pirates in space do, so there should be no need for some super long and complex pathfinding routines: NPC appears out of the thin air, immediately locks on you, and start attack run.

I don't know. To me, it looks like AI guys weren't quite up to the task in this case. I can't but to think of procedurally generated wild life in NMS which moves pretty realistically and interacts with its surroundings (water, air, ground) very well. I simply can't believe that FDEV hit the wall here with NPC SRVs.

It is also worth noting that, AFAIK, this was the first major detour where solo play gets short end of the stick compared to open (in which we will be able to meet other SRVs driven by players).

 

[Hadron-Higgs-Boson]

It is also worth noting that, AFAIK, this was the first major detour where solo play gets short end of the stick compared to open (in which we will be able to meet and engage other SRVs driven by players).

nope the first major one (post launch, there may have been others through alpha/beta I do not know) was Wings, as in solo players cant have NPC wingmen

 

[Varrag]

nope the first major one (post launch, there may have been others through alpha/beta I do not know) was Wings, as in solo players cant have NPC wingmen

Ah yes, you're right of course.

 

[Hadron-Higgs-Boson]

Ah yes, you're right of course.

Personally I would have never made such a big thing about Wings, it was a glaring omission from a multiplayer game and should have just been corrected and patched in as nothing more than the obvious and basic grouping mechanic it is. If they had done that then not having NPC wingmen etc really wouldn't be a big deal in the context of the 'Wings Update', they sort of set themselves up to miss the expectations of people. In some ways I suppose at least this time with Horizons they got it out early, but they did hastily move on once the words had been said

 

[YinYin]

Assuming there are mining sites or something that the people of Elite's universe do for a day to day occupation on a planet's surface - they build bases down there, after all - how are they moving about?

Ships.

I'm pretty sure for most cases ships far outclass an SRV for moving around/mining and other activities.

These buggies aren't called SRV without reason.
You are only doing reconnaissance in them - looking into nooks you cannot get to with a ship.
That's not a thing an every day pilot will do all the time and have an SRV module around for.

 

[h347h]

So the obvious game design of all the skimmers being able to fly(and flying only) isn't a dead give away for the real reason we don't have NPC SRVs? For those that think its simple to do(making the AI to make the NPC SRVs intelligent and capable to pilot around) I challenge you code up some AI for FD so you can have NPC SRVs. If you can't shut up.

 

[Privata]

I dont mind...
but something is making me very scared... they have not once mentioned NPC spaceships... so maybe there no ship to ship combat on planets

 

[jabokai]

This doesn't just affect solo players, it's also a bit of a let-down for group play as it takes out a facet of opposition. The skimmers are nice but nicer to have SRVs and larger land units to fight against too. But, as others have noted, it's a way around the limitations of available development time versus the PG terrain. Perhaps we'll get other surface AI in time - it's a forgiveable miss at this stage, albeit disappointing.

As Privata implies there ^ we really need AI ships in this mode - not just to make up for the lack of surface vehicle NPCs but for the absolute fun of it! What fun attacking bases and blasting down canyons if there are no enemy fighters, proper fighters, as well as the drones.

 

[777Driver]

I dont mind...
but something is making me very scared... they have not once mentioned NPC spaceships... so maybe there no ship to ship combat on planets

Considering we will have starports on the surface, plus our ships operate as NPC's when dismissed - it would seem strange to not have NPC ship traffic on populated worlds. No NPC SRV's seems logical to me, the terrain is just too random to pull it off (at this stage)

 

[Privata]

Considering we will have starports on the surface, plus our ships operate as NPC's when dismissed - it would seem strange to not have NPC ship traffic on populated worlds. No NPC SRV's seems logical to me, the terrain is just too random to pull it off (at this stage)

Well maybe they are saving it for last , but I find it strange that they dont mention dogfights or just simple NPC ships flying around...
maybe its because its so obvious they did not feel the need to show us.

I just hope to have a good dogfight , or find a planet warzone or something

 

[BurnyBurns]

Ships.

I'm pretty sure for most cases ships far outclass an SRV for moving around/mining and other activities.

Sure, Helicopters are the perfect vehicle for strip mining in our world, right?

No, ships actually won't cut it. Why waste energy on keeping something afloat against a planet's surface and hovering still? How are ships supposed to collect the minerals they lasered off? There are no "traktor beams" in ED as far as I can tell and we haven't seen the ship drones work on planets, so the most likely candidates for such tasks are surface vehicles.

 

[Jockey79]

Considering we will have starports on the surface, plus our ships operate as NPC's when dismissed - it would seem strange to not have NPC ship traffic on populated worlds. No NPC SRV's seems logical to me, the terrain is just too random to pull it off (at this stage)

Or maybe, just maybe...

They need the Queen of AI: SJA back at the controls to do the ground AI

 

[nexxo]

I would have thought that's where those rocket boosters come handy because they can be freely rotated, so (presumably, with good AI) NPCs should be able to get un-stuck in most cases. I also suppose that NPC SRVs would be getting spawned upon us in same fashion as NPC pirates in space do, so there should be no need for some super long and complex pathfinding routines: NPC appears out of the thin air, immediately locks on you, and start attack run.

I don't know. To me, it looks like AI guys weren't quite up to the task in this case. I can't but to think of procedurally generated wild life in NMS which moves pretty realistically and interacts with its surroundings (water, air, ground) very well. I simply can't believe that FDEV hit the wall here with NPC SRVs.

It is also worth noting that, AFAIK, this was the first major detour where solo play gets short end of the stick compared to open (in which we will be able to meet other SRVs driven by players).

I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that. For starters, stuck NPCs remain stuck because they don't ' realise' they're stuck; they're caught in a logic loop. They don't use boosters because they don't 'realise' they need to.

Even an NPC that appears out of thin air has to traverse a complex landscape as it interacts with (follows, pursues, flees from) you. It has to constantly calculate a feasible path between where it is and where you are. That is a Very Complex Problem in AI.

The wildlife in NMS moves over quite flat terrain (don't let the high grass or trees fool you) or swims through water, which is basically like flying through space. I haven't seen any mountain-goat creatures traversing rocky terrain yet.

TL;DR: it's really easy for us to sit on the side lines judging from a position of ignorance on the subject. It's a lot more difficult for the experts to pull it off.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

The answer is so obvious.

making a path finding algorithm for a SRV is extremely hard, just look at the terrain.
Having skimmers solves a bunch of path finding issues, by essentially making them ignore terrain issues that the SRV's have.

Really? Come on that's a bit lame. I played smugglers run on ps2 as well as insane,fuel and a whole bunch of open world driving off road games and npcs seem to cope with the terrain just fine.

 

[D'Kaeth]

Really? Come on that's a bit lame. I played smugglers run on ps2 as well as insane,fuel and a whole bunch of open world driving off road games and npcs seem to cope with the terrain just fine.

I don't think anyone is saying it is impossible. But it is complicated and won't be done right now. Just because one company has solved this problem in their game system doesn't mean the answer can just be googled up by the developers for their own game.

And perhaps it'll happen later. I'd suspect FD has to prioritize limited resources.

 

[warbaby2]

Whatever the true reasons are, it does make Horizons look more and more like a general MMO then anything else... players have "unique" gear only they can have, fighting re-spawning drone type enemies and stationary turrets. Can't exactly say why, but it FEELS iffy.

Up until now, ED has players as a part of the world, facing off against/fighting alongside other pilots (players and NPCs) using the same ships/equipment they use, but with Horizons, that goes away. I mean... what happens when a true FPS mode comes into play later, does that mean that there will not be any enemy/friendly NPC soldiers either? What about vehicles and NPCs on stations/in settlements?

This does not bode well...

 

[Alric]

I would not make NPC SRVs any sort of priority for the initial release. Nice to have at some point.

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

Really? Come on that's a bit lame. I played smugglers run on ps2 as well as insane,fuel and a whole bunch of open world driving off road games and npcs seem to cope with the terrain just fine.

Coping with the terrain by cheating is easy (note how the buggy ignores those rocks it drives over). Coping with the terrain by doing it properly is much more complicated.

 

[Katkon]

Jeez - did most of you get up on the wrong side of the bed today? One would think the world as we know it is about to come to and end, judging by this thread. Perspective, folks... perspective!

 

[Sugarat]

Jeez - did most of you get up on the wrong side of the bed today? One would think the world as we know it is about to come to and end, judging by this thread. Perspective, folks... perspective!

At least we've moved on from expansion pricing policy discussion