Modes The Open v Solo v Groups thread IV - Hotel California

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Hi GluttonyFang. Will you make a summary of the third Thread like last time? :D
GluttonyFang said:
Oh dear a part three?!

Thanks for tending the Open/Solo garden (of massacare) Jenner, appreciate it!

Now where did I put the gasoline and flamethrower...

Alrighty time to write some controversial perspectives that will get me downvoted to hell. (Don't tell me this is not reddit >:3)

Open Mode Bias: [On] Off

The game inherently uses the mechanic of risk and reward, however, it is ignored when the developers of the game intentionally try to introduce the game to a wider market for revenue gain purposes.

Inherent mechanic of risk and reward can be found in harder missions (PvE content) receives more reward (credits).

Thus it is easy to conclude, judging from the game's credit system that progression exists (rank progression, as well). Thus it will create players that race for progression for the sake of progression.

Developers deploy the stand of "all modes are equal and valid" is nothing short of avoiding losing portions of its playerbase. However, it is pretty obvious that the playerbase is discontent toward FD's middle-road approach.

Open mode is reliant on Solo mode, meaning that players seeking multiplayer experience receives an open system that is dependent upon Solo mode. Open players can't enter Solo players' modes while vice versa is possible.

Open mode inherently possesses more risk both statistically and practically, however is rewarded the same as Solo, thus creating an imbalance. Suggesting that the modes are not equal and Solo players get the benefit from this forced inequality disguised as equality.

Players do not play for the sake of the activity they willfully engage in, but rather the credits/ranks they earn from doing them, thus judging from such a materialistic approach of defining reward, it makes sense to reward players that engage in more risky environment.

If Solo players/players that merely wish to play the game for engaging in the activities of their choices, then they should have no problem with Open mode being more rewarded for the increase in risk. But they do have a problem, thus leading to the conclusion that non-Open players that rejects Open play having a positive multiplier on its income fearful of their relative safer player styles to not be able to acquire the same reward.

Solo/Private group are completed systems and modes that are independent, while Open is not.

Equality and validity, come again?


Solo Mode Bias: [On] Off

Solo players did not necessarily purchase the game for the MP experience or some even loath dealing with people to begin with. There is no reason to force a mode upon Solo players on a game they paid for. Each mode is inherently equal, no matter what activity one engages in (outside of grieving I think), they are considered equal.

"No right way to play Elite Dangerous"

Profession imbalance is to be expected, some career tends to make more money than another. The whole inequality Open mode players stress is nothing but under the assumption that the foundation of credit/rank = reward. Which is not something everyone subscribes to.

There are certainly some people that engage in activities for the sake of the joy that emerges from the engagement instead of the materialistic gain potentially resulting from it.

Even Solo players that buy the risk vs reward system do not necessarily agree to the scaling of risk and reward. Since the relativity of the terms is quite obvious, one cannot assess what is risk and to what magnitude it poses to a certain player.

Thus the choice of playing in Open is not a commitment to risk, but rather a preference of MP disguised and pleading for more (believers of engagement of preferred activity itself being the definition of reward), or unfair (believers of materialistic gain being the definition of reward) reward.

Open mode is complete in the sense that MP includes both competition and cooperation, and both require the consent of the player to do so. The mechanics might be flawed due to P2P and other difficult issues to deal with (combat logging), but it was made clear from the beginning.

This game isn't as PvP focused as many people would like to believe, it is a PvE-heavy sandbox with PvP built upon it. Thus the core should be focused on PvE instead of PvP.

While PvP is of course another valid form of playing Elite Dangerous, though it is not its entirety. Therefore it is something that should allow a portion of the community to dedicate their time to, but not a focus forced upon every player.


Open Mode Bias: On [Off]

Solo Mode Bias: On [Off]

It's just a matter of which side yells the loudest now, really. Also how stubborn FD wants to be.

Now then... I wonder if bricks are going to come from both sides or nothing happens...

In the mean time... where did I put the napalm?

Last edited by GluttonyFang; 10/09/2015 at 10:32 PM.
 
But open isnt PVP. Just because you guys say its a PVP mode does not mean that's what it is. Yes, I agree, its a mode where PVP is possible. But its also a mode where PVE is possible. If open, as it stands, was a "PVP" server in the form that your side of the room is claiming it is, I could log in and be guaranteed to find some targets -- willing or otherwise. Thats not the case. Open mode is just open mode.

You can claim Open to be PvE friendly all you like, but it is a PvP Mode, so are Groups.

PvPvE meaning.jpg

While you "can" PvE in a PvP Mode, it does not make it a PvE Mode.
A real PvE mode, like PvE servers in other games - disallow all forms of PvP.
As PvP players clearly cannot be trusted to just leave some folks alone.
 
As PvP players clearly cannot be trusted to just leave some folks alone.

But that's an arbitrary criteria you created from stereotypes.

I have had more than my share of experience in PvE in numerous games that suffer from kill stealing, mission rushing, blocking, and many other destructive exploits that occur in PvE environments.

Open and group has the possibility of player being competitive with one another, or they can be cooperative.

Solo is strictly PvE. There is no strict PvP mode, CQC doesn't count for the reasons I listed.
 
You can claim Open to be PvE friendly all you like, but it is a PvP Mode, so are Groups.

View attachment 89209

While you "can" PvE in a PvP Mode, it does not make it a PvE Mode.
A real PvE mode, like PvE servers in other games - disallow all forms of PvP.
As PvP players clearly cannot be trusted to just leave some folks alone.

So are you saying that all these Mobius missionaries are inviting PVP victims to join another PVP mode? How evil!
 
Your "logic" is flawed - PvE / PvP cannot coexist in 1 mode, proven by PvP'ers harassing PvE'ers in the Mobius Group and this thread calling for PvE players to be PvP'ers toys.

Well just how you disagree with me, I also disagree with you. Maybe I see YOUR logic as flawed. Its entirely a matter of opinion. I personally wouldnt bother "infiltrating" a group, but I have no ill will on those that enjoy that type of thing. Playing as they want... so to speak?

No, I'm sorry to report, the modes are one or the other - if it is PvP enabled, then there is no real PvE game play. As PvP'ers get to PvP others whenever they want.
So PvE content on a PvP mode does not make it a PvE mode.

Well, I am also sorry to report that that simply isnt the case. So if PVP content prohibits a mode being called PVE, does that mean that PVE content makes it so other modes that include such cannot be called PVP??


PvE players want a real PvE mode, where they can multiplay PvE their little hearts out without others forcing their game play - that whole "Play your way" line and so on.

So why are they able to force their way unto others? They affect the background. They are PVPing by reducing trade values, invulnerable to the efforts of other players. How is that ok?
 
It's ok because Little Jimmy playing on his Xbox, behind a completely restrictive firewall that his protective mother has set to filter everything apart from trusted traffic, has to be able to play the same BGS as everyone else.
 
So are you saying that all these Mobius missionaries are inviting PVP victims to join another PVP mode? How evil!

Mobius is not a 'PvE mode'. Mobius is a player group whose rules include 'PvP by consent/within certain rules'. At best, Mobius' group is a workaround/exploit of the devs desire that there only be 'protected PvE' in Solo Mode. The devs have failed to provide/refused to provide a way for the 'public' to play in a mode that does not strictly remove PvP from the game. Therefore, the devs primary desire is that all players, that play together, MUST have an option to PvP.
 
But open isnt PVP.…

In all MMORPGs I played that had PvP servers the only difference to the PvE servers was that players could attack other players. Being able to attack other players is the essence of what a PvP server/mode is all about.

Um... all modes but Solo have PvP possibility, but no mode that is exclusively PvP. Solo is exclusively PvE.
….

Open Mode is a PvP mode. PvP combat is possible. It's not the only option in this mode, but it doesn't have to. Being able to attack other players turns any mode into a PvP mode.
Sure, it's not a Doom or Quake style PvP, but it is PvP and everybody in Open Mode better thinks how to handle a PvP encounter.
Being able to attack other players affects what ships and ship load outs are usable (have a survival chance against other players), where a player can go to find combat against players or where to avoid it.



So are you saying that all these Mobius missionaries are inviting PVP victims to join another PVP mode? How evil!

Gratulations, you realized why there are players who want an Open PvE mode.
Private Group Mode are PvP modes and Mobius group is just a private group where all participants agreed not to attack each other (some exceptions appear to exist) and the group admin has to enforce that mutual agreed upon rule set by allowing players into the group and by banning players who violate the rules.

Elite Dangerous has absolutely no pure PvE multiplayer mode.
 
I ask myself what the debate boils down. Why are we discussing when PvE and PvP is present? In all game modes both are possible, except in Solo. In Private Group PVP is possible, but only if it is also desired. If not you will be kicked, if you do it. In Open you have PVE and PVP. But you can not avoid PVP if do not want PVP.

Solo = PVE
Private = PVE and PWP (P with P) and PVP (but rare)
Open = PVE, PWP and PVP

But why is it important for this topic?
 
Open Mode is a PvP mode. PvP combat is possible. It's not the only option in this mode, but it doesn't have to. Being able to attack other players turns any mode into a PvP mode.
Sure, it's not a Doom or Quake style PvP, but it is PvP and everybody in Open Mode better thinks how to handle a PvP encounter.
Being able to attack other players affects what ships and ship load outs are usable (have a survival chance against other players), where a player can go to find combat against players or where to avoid it.

But isn't that too easy of a criteria to fulfill?

By your definition, Mobius is a PvP mode. (Yes I know about their CZ rules)
 
I ask myself what the debate boils down. Why are we discussing when PvE and PvP is present? In all game modes both are possible, except in Solo. In Private Group PVP is possible, but only if it is also desired. If not you will be kicked, if you do it. In Open you have PVE and PVP. But you can not avoid PVP if do not want PVP.

Solo = PVE
Private = PVE and PWP (P with P) and PVP (but rare)
Open = PVE, PWP and PVP

But why is it important for this topic?


Because there is no way for PvE players to avoid PvP in a 'public space'. The PvE players are requesting an Open equivalent without having to be concerned about PvP.

Although I can see the logic for the request...it is also amply clear from the design decisions of the Devs that this will never occur!

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

But isn't that too easy of a criteria to fulfill?

By your definition, Mobius is a PvP mode. (Yes I know about their CZ rules)

Absolutely, it is. It is not a 'Public' mode...but it is a PvP mode...where the PvP is ignored.
 
Gratulations, you realized why there are players who want an Open PvE mode.
Private Group Mode are PvP modes and Mobius group is just a private group where all participants agreed not to attack each other (some exceptions appear to exist) and the group admin has to enforce that mutual agreed upon rule set by allowing players into the group and by banning players who violate the rules.

Elite Dangerous has absolutely no pure PvE multiplayer mode.

To have the pure PVE multiplayer mode you just need to make 5 jumps in either directions. Apparently this is too hard for so many players.
 

But why is it important for this topic?

Because humans just love tribes.
It's currently a fight between the PvP tribe versus the PvE tribe. Both tribes try to define what the other tribe is about as a way to show how wrong they are and that they are heretics.

And probably because it's just fun to argue about completely irrelevant stuff.
 
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