PVP/Crime Consequences required levels (Answers from PVE players please.)

Majinvash

Banned
While all these technical solutions to piracy would be a welcome, if not a HUGELY unlikely change for FD to make. (Then balance them out to not be meta lols.)

The simple fact is that Piracy works on threat of violence. Always has and always will.

This isn't just my point of view it is FD's.

My example are their pirate NPC's, sure they are about as threatening as a cabbage.
But their actions are what us pirates emulate but in a far more effective way.

Its also more profitable.

I can and have on MULTIPLE occasions made a player Conda drop EVERYTHING in their hold as abandoned.
All without firing a single shot.
Sometimes, I will have crippled them and then made my demand again.

Why should NPC Pirates get no anger from the community, when The Code got months of abuse for doing the same thing.

These NPC pirates would have merrily killed you for not dropping, same as us. But luckily they could be defeated by boosting in a straight line.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open
 
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...

Basically this game does very little to encourage RP piracy, but nothing at all to dissuade non-RP PKing. The two can't be separated.

...

That IMO started when Beta / Release was done and piracy wasn't given a rating like BH / Trade / Exploration.

FD didn't legitimise piracy (big mistake) - didn't continue with their own ideas about destroying ships (that harmed your piracy progress) and implemented lackluster detterents (no NPC responses that you need to worry about; 6K fine :rolleyes:; no game response to criminals bar being "wanted"; list goes on)

Foolishly or nievly I put my hopes in the C&P revamp of 2.1.

We shall see.
 
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My random, possibly not terribly original thoughts on this:

1) People play in Solo for many reasons, not just to avoid PvP. Increased penalties for player murder won't stop me using Solo when I'm not trusting my broadband to keep me online or when I'm not in the mood to share a RES site with others, for instance. And that's fine; as long as we're accepting that this is just about making Open a bit more hospitable for those who are put off by the horror stories and not regarding every Solo instance as a failure of that attempt we're OK.

2) Greater fines/bounties are one part of this - because ultimately, the players have the biggest guns and the best skills at using them, so anything that can be done to encourage players to bounty hunt the Bad Guys without opening up "make money by killing your mates" exploits should be good.

3) Conversely, however, the size of the bounty is merely a way of encouraging that. It's not much of a punishment in itself. The punishment is supposed to be the bit where the danger of getting killed goes up, and right now that's the real problem. Increasing the police presence in "civilised" areas of the Galaxy, increasing the rapidity and severity of their response, is what's going to make murderers break off from slicing up traders, not the fear of a hypothetical number going up.

4) Part of that is ensuring that Wanted levels can escalate for repeat offences to wider areas, yes.
 
Piracy should be a legitimate and extremely profitable game mechanic. However it should come with severe consequences. Firstly larger initial fines & bounties. Secondly, if the pirate fails to see the error of his ways it should lead to progressive banishment from secure space and access to the ships/modules therein. Ultimately they should be banished to Anarchic space! Getting back into "Secure" space should be a matter of grovelling to the authorities and paying off huge bounties!

Perhaps very naughty pirates will be able to collect in anarchic systems and build their own base to store loot and contraband! Hmmm that sounds like fun. ;-)
 
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Well, i'd really, really like to see some properly implemented pirating mechanics.
I played mostly solo or mobius, and i was 'recruited by accident' by a player faction while mode switching ( :p ).
They convinced me to dive a toe into open, wing up, meet them on TS. Met great people, made new friends.
I know that some of 'em, sometimes, do piracy, too. Roleplaying it. We do not allow psychos in our ranks.

To get to the point:
I would like to try pirating, too, but not with the momentary mechanics.
To get more 'real' pirate feelings into the game, it definately needs:

- pirate stations / outposts
you'd have to make friends with them first or you're not allowed docking, perhaps even k.o.s.
- good piracy and other illegal missions from these factions
(even something like: 'stop ship xy, last seen in z. when you disabled the ship our ships come and take over the load.')
- working pve piracy, with cargo that's worth the struggle
- mechanics to threaten npc's to drop cargo, with reasonable outcomes
(cmdr in python, deadly, threatening T7: have all my money; cmdr in T7 threatening deadly python: 'you what, mate?')
- weapons to just strip shields / disable ships / interrupt or block FSD's

So, give me a real choice to do effective PVE piracy, too, open or not.
I'm not interested in pvp, perhaps it'll come later.
But if i wanna be a pirate, i wouldn't want to kill, be it NPC or player.
I want monies.
And a place full of 'yarrr', to call home.
 
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I've been thinking about this and following this thread for several days now and while to some extent I think it's too late as I doubt many of the solo/groupers will ever be drawn back into open now with it's toxic reputation (n.b. it doesn't matter if it really is as toxic as it's reputation or not, mud sticks and there's rarely smoke without fire). However I do think there are some things that can be done to improve things:

First the pvp players themselves really need to try and clean house. If you want people to play in your backyard it needs to be as fun and enjoyable experience as possible, at the moment this simply isn't the case as no win scenarios, such as facing a wing of top level, pvp equipped ships while you're on your own, isn't fun for most people (and if all you can do is run away then you might as well just stay in solo/group). Why not try flying in weaker ships such as Vipers and Cobras instead of FdL and Pythons or simply not fly in wings? Why not try using equipment/weapon loadouts that give the trader/multirole equipped ships a fighting chance? Why not try r.p.ing being a pirate who needs to make money (whether you do need to or not), try using exaggerated pirate speak for a laugh etc.? Last but certainly not least, don't be rude or insulting either in game or on the forums. Posts like the one Majinvash made earlier in this thread, however honest, certainly aren't going to make people want to come into 'open'.

Secondly Crime and Punishment. The problem here is that the system needs to provide a disincentive to mindless player killing but not make the entirety of Elite a crime free zone. This will require a multi-pronged approach, first by penalising killing and secondly by adding a greater variety of non-lethal piracy tools.

Criminal Penalties:

These ideas by Muetdhiver are a good example of how the kill penalties could be made to work:

Large increase of Bounty for murder, with escalation mechanics. Say starting at 50K, but doubling for every murder till topping at 1M per kill. Both for clean players and NPC murders.
Escalation : both in juridiction (area where you are wanted) and response (how actively and nastily the NPC's will go at you).
Jurisdiction : Once your Bounty with a minor faction reach a certain threshold, you become wanted at the power level. At an other threshold, you become wanted at the major faction level. (so minor > power > major, with potential skip of the power juridiction). This means that anarchy systems and PP unaligned independant systems will be the best places to evade the hammer. As it should be. Upon escalating juridiction, all bounties in said jurisdiction are merged**.
Response : The bounty in the appropriate juridiction determines the NPC response. Using thresholds and security level* to determine what is dispatched (local cops / swat team / counter terrorism military wing) and how long they will track you down before giving up the chase (local system, 50lyr bubble, whole power, whole major faction). To spice things up, add in Bounty hunters coming after you anywhere once you reach certain bounties. (even in anarchy).
Docking rights : once wanted in high sec, forget about landing in major ports and outposts, in med sec allow players to bribe for landing rights on outposts (but not large stations), in low sec allow landing on outposts and bribe for large stations. In anarchy none of this matters Of course juridiction applies, e.g. cannot land in most large imperial space port. tough life I guess.

Piracy equipment:

Piracy at the moment has a number of problems. Disabling a small ship or weak hulled trader is difficult and is more likely to result in destruction than shooting out it's engines (even with a big tough ship it's more trouble than it's worth). Shooting out the hatch is impractical if the target is maneuvering and limpets are easily avoided and quite slow (they also have a tendency to scatter the few tonnes of cargo they release over a very wide area which makes it a pain to scoop). It's also far too easy for the target to submit and high wake out before you can steal any cargo. The solution to the first problem is to include some kind of emp weapons that disable the target ship without damaging it. This could be a gun type weapon that does temporary system damage or missiles that can effectively shut down the entire ship. Personally I'm in favour of the missiles as it would give more meaning to fitting point defences and ecm modules (however I would change the ecm to a internal slot item rather than a utility slot to make people choose between maximising cargo space/toughness or defending against these missiles). There would probably also need to be some other countermeasures/drawbacks to these weapons as otherwise they could end up being too powerful in general combat. The first option I can think of is to make the weapons (and similar piracy equipment) illegal to equip and would give you a small bounty if scanned which would make them unattractive for bounty hunters. Other options could include emp hardened equipment or bulkheads (reduction in performance/armour but protection from these weapons).

Hatch breakers need to be improved, they need to be more reliable and release more cargo at a time. You could also include different grades of limpets including ones that can penetrate shields. Cargo limpets also need to be improved as, in my experience, they are largely useless for piracy work as they tend to self destruct if you are being forced to maneuver by attacking police ships (or even the target ship, Type 9's can do a surprising amount of damage while you're scooping or sitting still waiting for limpets).

The last thing that is needed is some sort of gravity mine/thing that slows the spool up time even of high waking, to give the pirate time to steal some goodies. Like the emp missile these should be vulnerable to point defences and ecm and should be illegal to equip.

Assassination:

While piracy can be still made possible by including non-lethal options, assassins are obviously going to get caught up in the increased security measures. The first solution is to massively increase the payouts for 'illegal' missions (this should probably be done anyway as you get the bounty as well for 'legal' ones), this will still give people enough of an incentive to do these missions despite the increased security/higher bounties etc., although it would probably mean that you wouldn't want to stay in one place too long as an assassin. Unfortunately needing to move around will raise another problem which is that, in order to get the more lucrative missions you will constantly need to regrind rep with the various local factions of your new hunting ground. One solution to this problem is to include some kind of reputation system as an assassin, and the types of missions you get are dependent on your reputation and not your status with the local factions. This rep. could include the number of successful missions vs failures, how quickly you completed the missions, how efficiently you completed the missions i.e. did you have to kill lots of police etc.. You could even make this part of some sort of Assassins guild (an in game lore guild, not a player one), after you've successfully completed some missions you get invited into this guild and they help take some of the heat off you, have friendly ports and find you work. Similar in game guilds could be used for other professions such as piracy or bounty hunting.

Sorry about the essay :p.
 
While all these technical solutions to piracy would be a welcome, if not a HUGELY unlikely change for FD to make. (Then balance them out to not be meta lols.)

The simple fact is that Piracy works on threat of violence. Always has and always will.

This isn't just my point of view it is FD's.

My example are their pirate NPC's, sure they are about as threatening as a cabbage.
But their actions are what us pirates emulate but in a far more effective way.

Its also more profitable.

I can and have on MULTIPLE occasions made a player Conda drop EVERYTHING in their hold as abandoned.
All without firing a single shot.
Sometimes, I will have crippled them and then made my demand again.

Why should NPC Pirates get no anger from the community, when The Code got months of abuse for doing the same thing.

These NPC pirates would have merrily killed you for not dropping, same as us. But luckily they could be defeated by boosting in a straight line.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

Sounds a lot like you're justifying your decision to push for a status quo so you can keep shooting people.

NPC's can only use the mechanics that are in the game at the time. When NPC's started back in beta they could do a lot less than they could do now so you can't say "NPC's only use violence so that's what FD want", coz as soon as FD introduces a single non-violent mechanic it immediately voids the argument. The most you can draw from it is that that's the only mechanic they've included so far to support piracy. Please remember that YOU started this thread ASKING what should be ADDED to make people more willing to come back to open and you've been broadly told "mechanics that would allow piracy but discourage murder". As soon as those mechanics are added I'd expect NPC's to start being coded to use them too.
 
That IMO started when Beta / Release was done and piracy wasn't given a rating like BH / Trade / Exploration.

FD didn't legitimise piracy (big mistake) - didn't continue with their own ideas about destroying ships (that harmed your piracy progress) and implemented lackluster detterents (no NPC responses that you need to worry about; 6K fine :rolleyes:; no game response to criminals bar being "wanted"; list goes on).

Totally agree - unlike the other main professions in the game they made piracy vague and lacking a progression system. People then turned to murder to get their kicks because they were bored (yes you would get that anyway, but probably less if piracy was implemented properly).
 
Totally agree - unlike the other main professions in the game they made piracy vague and lacking a progression system. People then turned to murder to get their kicks because they were bored (yes you would get that anyway, but probably less if piracy was implemented properly).

Gotta agree with that. The most FDev have said about it is that it's a "valid part of the gameplay" and that "you can do it if you want" but they've never really done much to actually validate it, short of a poorly implemented hatch breaker. Dunno if I'd want to see them put in rankings for it though coz that'd mean the pilot's fed are actively promoting crime when they're supposed to be nuetral... unless they included a "syndicate" or some other sort of organised crime group that handled that stuff (which isn't a bad idea really).
 
It was enhanced trolling..

Indeed.

However some people can't differentiate between acts of piracy (that on the whole, when I watched your stream, that's what you did - stand and deliver) and blatent murder. Knowing that going into open is going to get them easily killed in some systems it makes people think twice about coming to open. Gloating / baiting / trolling them on the forums, no matter how justified you feel, makes these people think again about rejoining open .. a lot don't.

It's not entirely your (group) fault - most of the blame lies with FD and their implementation.

"PvP [combat] would be rare and meaningful" - it is rare, unless you're in the wrong system, then it's just meaningless.

When you die, sure you don't really die, you're just set back a considerable amount of time, more so if you were foolish (or new) and failed to have enough insurance. It can be very demotivating to know all the risk lies for your victims and none of it shared with the aggressor which I guess is the purpose of your thread - how to tempt people back into open.

--

You're in a similar position as many women are today in business - they have to work twice as hard as anyone else to get past the stigma and prejudices of modern business men. Respect takes a lot longer to earn and far easier to loose.

The same goes for people who want to pirate.

You will have to work for a long time to earn the respect of other players - I used to champion Piracy, ensuring during the DDF that the rules were fair and not totally anti-piracy; tried to work on the forums countering abnormal reactions and irrational fears but sadly, over time, I stopped ... grew tired of what other clown-pirates / murderers were doing and saying.

(Unrelated - I have become dislluisioned by ED/FD which is why I haven't posted much recently and my name is slowly being forgotten - perhaps for the better as now I am just bitter and twisted [yesnod])

You have to be better than the rest - set a standard and uphold it.

/lecture_over :D
 
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That IMO started when Beta / Release was done and piracy wasn't given a rating like BH / Trade / Exploration.

FD didn't legitimise piracy (big mistake) - didn't continue with their own ideas about destroying ships (that harmed your piracy progress) and implemented lackluster detterents (no NPC responses that you need to worry about; 6K fine :rolleyes:; no game response to criminals bar being "wanted"; list goes on)

Foolishly or nievly I put my hopes in the C&P revamp of 2.1.

We shall see.

This, basically, but also Majins usual caustically written response contains something true as usual which many of us have lamented since release. Huge discrepancy between players and NPCs focuses the issue, many of the issues would be considerably more background if an NPC had anything like the success rate a player had (or a players was as low as the NPC). If you are in a T7 and you get interdicted by a pirate python for example if the AI is controlling successful escape with all cargo is probably ~ 95%+, if I'm flying the python its 0% - well you could mess me around long enough that i give up as I won't actually kill somebody willing to die for their cargo but you get the point.

That discrepancy creates so many problems because we (the players) are so dangerous compared to the background of the game, the rarity of that danger also means people are usually ill prepared for it, or consider it sufficiently rare to not be worth catering for.

I mean how many people flew unshielded traders at release? At least a third of people I used to interdict didn't run shields if that doesn't tell you how safe the game is except from players I don't know what is, the only reason I ran one when I traded was because I dock like a loon and don't want to pay repairs.
 
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Been playing GTA5 recently. Not open online, just mainly PvE except when my daughter thinks its funny to shoot a flare gun into the back of my head. To be fair, i had just deliberately rammed into her bike at full speed. :p

Anyway, I notice they had a mechanic whereby the more people you kill (including NPCs i think), the more your "mental" state goes up, and the more visible you become on the city map, allowing people to track you down. And of course, wanted level whereby you get the cops chasing you.

But leaving aside the wanted level thing for the moment (which is cool and fun to run from the cops), perhaps ED could do something similar to the map visibility thing.

Here's a proposal.

Menace: If you kill a player, your gain in notoriety starts. Pilot's Federation doesn't like its pilots killing each other when the target is not wanted, so in the system where it happens, its noted. Renegade PF member kills another member - bounty on head. See mission board for details. (Go to mission board, mission to kill that player appears with reward added). At this stage, all that is known is the killer was in the system.

Wanted: If they kill a second (non-wanted) player, they become locked to playing in Open until it wears off (second so people who accidentally kill another player are not locked to open, stuff can happen). Additionally all system stations where the player has omitted crimes (Minor factions) now post the news and offer the missions, even if those are systems where they player has not been - the news starts to spread. Anyone carrying the mission gets a comms notification every time the target is spotted by a player or system authority in areas where they are wanted.

Murderer: Third time - things get hairy. The target's information and missions are now posted in all systems where the major faction has as presence (if alliance, fed, or empire - not so if indep). Worse though is an icon appears on the galactic map to anyone with the mission showing what system they are currently in. The PF transponder on their ship is activated!!!! (what is this PF transponder? Just some lore i made up :D). Still, only happens if in areas where the missions are posted, they can run to systems where they are not wanted still. Anarchies regardless do not report position.

Mass Murderer: Fourth time - mission payouts increase (probably increasing with each level anyway). System map now shows a map marker highlighting which object the target is closest to, whether it be star, planet, or station. If docked, then naturally the station is highlighted. Still restricted to only regions/systems/stations where there is law enforcement for any of the crimes committed.

Fugitive: Fifth time, the hunt is on. Anyone with the mission (now available from any station that isn't anarchy), the players location is broadcast to anyone with the mission as detailed as possible in real time. Galactic map shows where they are, system map shows their approximate location, and comms updates are sent every time they change location/system. The only places where their doesn't happen is anarchies. They set their foot outside of an anarchy and every BH with the mission will know it instantly (or, a slightly less brutal version - once they are spotted by any player with report crimes turned on or by any system authority vessels).

Of course, there is some sort of cooldown on this, 1 week perhaps like the current bounty system. Go a week without killing a player, the effects wear off (slowly or instantly), missions expire, etc. Perhaps lose 1 rank of wanted status per day or week.

Still most likely wouldn't get me back in Open, but it might provide fun for the criminals, the bounty hunters, and at least some victims might appreciate it, and hell, maybe their victims will go grab that bounty mission from the BB and join in the hunt.

Only one possible exploit that comes to mind immediately is the max mission payout can't be much higher than the rebuy cost of the target ship - otherwise i could see people cooperating to turn this into a way of getting credits unfairly - and it would have to adjust based on what they are flying at the time of death, possibly taking the bounty money directly from the target as part of their rebuy cost. Would need some thought.
 
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This, basically, but also Majins usual caustically written response contains something true as usual which many of us have lamented since release. Huge discrepancy between players and NPCs focuses the issue, many of the issues would be considerably more background if an NPC had anything like the success rate a player had (or a players was as low as the NPC). If you are in a T7 and you get interdicted by a pirate python for example if the AI is controlling successful escape with all cargo is probably ~ 95%+, if I'm flying the python its 0% - well you could mess me around long enough that i give up as I won't actually kill somebody willing to die for their cargo but you get the point.

That discrepancy creates so many problems because we (the players) are so dangerous compared to the background of the game, the rarity of that danger also means people are usually ill prepared for it, or consider it sufficiently rare to not be worth catering for.

I mean how many people flew unshielded traders at release? At least a third of people I used to interdict didn't run shields if that doesn't tell you how safe the game is except from players I don't know what is, the only reason I ran one when I traded was because I dock like a loon and don't want to pay repairs.

On the other hand, FD can't go too far. If you could get interdicted by NPCs running stealthed railgun FAS, then the player population might simply disappear overnight. Always need to keep in mind there are those people out there for whom the current batch of NPCs are a challenge even in a combat ship.
 
On the other hand, FD can't go too far. If you could get interdicted by NPCs running stealthed railgun FAS, then the player population might simply disappear overnight. Always need to keep in mind there are those people out there for whom the current batch of NPCs are a challenge even in a combat ship.

I completely agree I'm not saying we should have god bots, and you can't have super efficient bots targeting the worst players (hidden combat rating time) or it kills their enjoyment, but I think we need to meet somewhere in the middle.
 
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