Why do all the PVP builds I see posted not use shields?

Nearly every competitive game will have some sort of FOTM/'Flavour of the now' build/spec/loadout. If it involves numbers, people will do their utmost best to min-max it. ;)

And others will ridicule them for it, and continue to play the game the way they like it :)
 
Nearly every competitive game will have some sort of FOTM/'Flavour of the now' build/spec/loadout. If it involves numbers, people will do their utmost best to min-max it. ;)

except the current meta doesn't offer a lot of options. The current meta is horrible and poorly balanced if you use shields you are done and will die. Gimballed, turrets & missiles are useless because every body use silent running.
 
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It's probably because the standard PvP tactics don't work in CQC - there's no hull-tanking, no wings outside of TDM, lock can be broken without perma-silent running/heatsinks, evasion means more than boosting past the nose and high-waking out, and cover actually means something: physical line-of-sight barriers that block weapons.

It plays very differently.

This. CQC is harder since it is fair and actually doesn't allow for utterly stuoid loadouts. While some ships may need a chanhe here and there or the weapons power might be the go to, overall I say it is balanced and the better player wins, not the better ship or equipment. Your credit count has nothing to do with your chance to win.
 
And these two quotes sum up what I love so much about CQC.
I really enjoy CQC, when I can get matches - my ping to the parts of the world where the game is played means I usually end up sitting lonely in a lobby. :|

This. CQC is harder since it is fair and actually doesn't allow for utterly stuoid loadouts. While some ships may need a chanhe here and there or the weapons power might be the go to, overall I say it is balanced and the better player wins, not the better ship or equipment. Your credit count has nothing to do with your chance to win.
I concur - CQC is almost entirely predicated on skill.
 
except the current meta doesn't offer a lot of options. The current meta is horrible and poorly balanced if you use shields you are done and will die. Gimballed, turrets & missiles are useless because every body use silent running.

The new large and huge MCs are supposed to be fixed only, which makes them immune to silent running and should do a fair bit of hull and subsystem damage. With a bit of skill that should help even out the playing field.

Edit: grammar be hard yo.
 
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The new large and huge MCs are supposed to be fixed only, which makes them immune to silent running and should do a fair bit of hull and subsystem damage. With a bit of skill that should help even out the playing field.

Edit: grammar be hard yo.

Lakon ships type-6, type-7 and type-9 should be retired then. Because FDL has a class 4 slot. :)

That said, corvette is set to become a demon. 2x huge hardpoints. If the trade ships were just a tad more survivable, it'd not be so bad. I guess it just means trade ships are now twice as dead, and Corvettes will happily chow down on FDL. Sounds a lot like a food chain.
 
The new large and huge MCs are supposed to be fixed only, which makes them immune to silent running and should do a fair bit of hull and subsystem damage. With a bit of skill that should help even out the playing field.

Edit: grammar be hard yo.

Seriously? I can understand the huge being fixed, but not the large, especially as that will make it useless for ships like the Imp. Clipper.
 
The new large and huge MCs are supposed to be fixed only, which makes them immune to silent running and should do a fair bit of hull and subsystem damage. With a bit of skill that should help even out the playing field.

Edit: grammar be hard yo.

they need probably 1000m/s velocity or it won't matter, I agree with you that in principle they should be a great weapon vs hull tanks, but the whole problem is you can't reliably hit a target with anything other than lasers or rails currently, it works on NPCs because they fly differently, constantly expose themselves etc and you'll still frequently find travel time weapons missing just because they rotated slightly, or changed thrust by 10%.
 
except the current meta doesn't offer a lot of options. The current meta is horrible and poorly balanced if you use shields you are done and will die. Gimballed, turrets & missiles are useless because every body use silent running.

actually gimbals and turrets are useless because 30% damage hit, 60% damage hit, if you went pvp'ing with gimbals you are asking to lose from the get go. For example, C3 burst does 25 dps, gimbal does 18.5 (74% of fixed damage) turret does 8.7 (32%)

Numbers like this mean I can match the damage output of a 3C3 burst 2C2 beam turret python which gives you a bit over 40 dps, with 2 C3 fixed pulses.

Obviously turret numbers aren't quite that low because on a regular target they can have superior up-time if piloted well, but the fact is that a turreted python has the same firepower as a fixed vulture. But this is why I never even bothered running chaff in PvP, If i couldn't win when I was always going to last 30% longer by default then I didn't deserve to win, I don't need to untrack the gimbals to punish them further lol.

Back on the current Meta I think its a series of defences stacked ontop of each other, Silent running makes it extra hard for physical weapons to hit, huge hp makes lasers ineffective, silent running means you no longer have to power sys, which gives you 2-4 engine points that a reasonable number of players would never use, these compound back into the fact physical weapons are harder to hit with (because your target is substantially more evasive) even a python is fairly nimble with 4 pips in engines, FDLs turn on a dime.

Its almost a perfect storm.
 
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Exactly. It's up to the game designers to allow for other flavours to be equally competitive if employed properly.
That would irredeemably damage PvE "progression" though. You can't have an open world with both competitive PvP combat and "open world progression" from baby to god, and you can't have any "interesting" customisation either because any variance will inevitably lead to "must have" "the best" builds.

IMAO trying to design an open world for balanced PvP is a waste of time. If you want balanced competitive play, have an arena with a small, controlled set of customisations, and don't gate anything behind level or time requirements. It's a big part of what made old shooters great and even.
 
That would irredeemably damage PvE "progression" though. You can't have an open world with both competitive PvP combat and "open world progression" from baby to god, and you can't have any "interesting" customisation either because any variance will inevitably lead to "must have" "the best" builds.

IMAO trying to design an open world for balanced PvP is a waste of time. If you want balanced competitive play, have an arena with a small, controlled set of customisations, and don't gate anything behind level or time requirements. It's a big part of what made old shooters great and even.

Yep. I miss the seriously competitive Quake/UT2k3 days. If I won/lost, it was usually because I was just flat out better/worse than someone else, not because of a better ship, a better sword or the better comp. Trying to balance PVP within the confines of a PVE environment is futile. (Ask Blizzard, they've been fighting that losing battle for 10+ years and they've finally given up and split PVP talents off from PVE for Legion) An arena like CQC is the only way to get anything resembling balance for PVP for Elite Dangerous.
 
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Very easy to counter: Railguns dont hit small ships. Moskito-tactics.

I had very nice results in an agile Imperial Courier(shielded/fixed pulse lasers) against those so-called "Overpowered" SR/HRP builds, because the shield strength of the Courier is very forgiving if you make a mistake. Plus, its fun to see them fleeing, when they realise they are running out of ammo. :cool:

Currently i'm trying an eagle. That does work as well, but you have to currently fly FAoff and hit those side thrusters permantly to make your movements unpredictable, because one random hit and your out. [yesnod]

Problem is, nobody wants to fly the small ships, because they are considered "weak". That's why these builds are considered the "best". [big grin]
 
Yep. I miss the seriously competitive Quake/UT2k3 days. If I won/lost, it was usually because I was just flat out better/worse than someone else, not because of a better ship, a better sword or the better comp. Trying to balance PVP within the confines of a PVE environment is futile. (Ask Blizzard, they've been fighting that losing battle for 10+ years and they've finally given up and split PVP talents off from PVE for Legion) An arena like CQC is the only way to get anything resembling balance for PVP for Elite Dangerous.

MMO's have a vastly more complicated system to handle than ED does, ED balance is entirely tied to ship balance and the pve is related to exactly the same thing. You guys give the devs way too much leeway to dodge responsibility for balancing, they barely change anything I'd find it hard to believe they actually care at all lol. It was pointed out at the very beggining of WoW btw that you can't balance PvE and PvP content in a game like that on the same skills, blizzard just avoided accepting the idea until now.

They could literally gimp the current meta in one patch note and it wouldn't effect 99.9% of players, in WoW everytime you changed an ability it had knock-on consequences because you had to do PvE with the same character you PvP'd with, Nobody in ED does PVE in a 5 rails silent running FDL, because its about as far away from the PvE meta as you can get ;)

Changes to silent running / rails would have extremely limited impact in pve or if approached from the buff instead of nerf angle, increased bullet velocity / missile usefulness would just make more things viable than currently are.
 
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Silent running means your target can't lock onto you and you don't appear on the radar, combine that with a black ship and you have stealth mode.

you can't expect in a universe of the early 19th century to be able to locate and track an object in space without heat exhasut sigantures.

It is just one of the facepalming lore wird implementions of how scanners work. While my entire systems scanners have infinite range and even can detect iceballs 100k LS away.

Silent running should not make anything a reals tealth, It should probabyl make soem stuff inaccrate, but unscannable thats weird off lore if you consider at which time Elite plays?
 

Majinvash

Banned
MMO's have a vastly more complicated system to handle than ED does, ED balance is entirely tied to ship balance and the pve is related to exactly the same thing. You guys give the devs way too much leeway to dodge responsibility for balancing, they barely change anything I'd find it hard to believe they actually care at all lol. It was pointed out at the very beggining of WoW btw that you can't balance PvE and PvP content in a game like that on the same skills, blizzard just avoided accepting the idea until now.

They could literally gimp the current meta in one patch note and it wouldn't effect 99.9% of players, in WoW everytime you changed an ability it had knock-on consequences because you had to do PvE with the same character you PvP'd with, Nobody in ED does PVE in a 5 rails silent running FDL, because its about as far away from the PvE meta as you can get ;)

Changes to silent running / rails would have extremely limited impact in pve or if approached from the buff instead of nerf angle, increased bullet velocity / missile usefulness would just make more things viable than currently are.

It comes down a lot to the time involved in PVP vs PVE.

If I can last 5 minutes in a PVP battle, I am having a great day.
If you had to restock every 5 mins to go back to the PVE Grind, you would complain.
The Mechanics are no different.

Its a real shame that FD is still incredibly poor at balancing in general.
I do not have beta access but speaking to players that do, it seems after almost every patch all the feed back about what was going to happen ( regarding ship/weapon balance) was mostly ignored.

There is a video somewhere of one of the famous early twitch steamers taking on an Anaconda in an Eagle running dumbfire missiles.
He wins and it is done with great skill and using what was once a powerful weapon ( Was also a worry in 1984 Elite ).
Some players realised how strong these were and they became the go to weapon, it was awesome and it actually gave T6's some teeth.
Even though fun they needed a balance, the simple option would have been to make them useless on shields and leave it at that.
FD went insane. Made them weak against shield and hull, then for extra salt in the wound gimped the fire rate.
( Same with heat seekers, mines, cannons )

The current meta has made Torpedos a waste of time as well.
Before HRP, they were a challenge to make it but when they did... OH boy!

Now it takes 2 Torpedos to take out a reinforced eagle.
I once put 8 torpedos, into a Hull FAS and knocked it down to 40% hull.
Pre reinforcements, 3 would destroy a battle conda ( If you could land the shots )

Next we have the new C3 and C4 Multicannons coming, I cannot wait to see the imbalance they produce.

My expectation of the new patch is that the new weapons will be strong as hell, because everyone wants them to be and has been asking since launch for bigger dakka dakka.
I expect they will change the HRP's so that they are much less OP on smaller ships, which is a great thing.
At the same time this will have a knock on effect to the larger ships, of which they were really designed for.
Large ships now which have lower shield strength because of the need for heatsinks to compensate for the SCB heat production.
Meaning that the larger ships are not at all scary because their damage output is far lower because they cannot risk having 4 pips to weapons for long and the TTD after the now weaker shields drop will be quicker. (SCB spamming is still achievable but only on a few ships)

The above will get picked up the first night in Beta testing but will FD listen or just roll out what they think will work.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open
 
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MMO's have a vastly more complicated system to handle than ED does, ED balance is entirely tied to ship balance and the pve is related to exactly the same thing. You guys give the devs way too much leeway to dodge responsibility for balancing, they barely change anything I'd find it hard to believe they actually care at all lol. It was pointed out at the very beggining of WoW btw that you can't balance PvE and PvP content in a game like that on the same skills, blizzard just avoided accepting the idea until now.

They could literally gimp the current meta in one patch note and it wouldn't effect 99.9% of players, in WoW everytime you changed an ability it had knock-on consequences because you had to do PvE with the same character you PvP'd with, Nobody in ED does PVE in a 5 rails silent running FDL, because its about as far away from the PvE meta as you can get ;)

Changes to silent running / rails would have extremely limited impact in pve or if approached from the buff instead of nerf angle, increased bullet velocity / missile usefulness would just make more things viable than currently are.

I get what you're saying, but the concept still applies. There will always be some kind of meta in a world where the playing field isn't level among all possible ships/modules. There's still differences between ships and flight characteristics, modules etc. The more factors you throw into the pot, the harder it is to balance. I used to be pretty competitive in the old days of Quake/UT2k3, and that translated into WoW for the first few seasons, I gave that aspect up once I realized that the comp was having a significant impact beyond what the players skills were bringing. (Now I'm a PVE scumbag who still keeps a highly ranked Monk :eek:) Even something like SC2 still has balancing issues even though it's primarily focused on the PVP aspect, and it's far simpler than something like an MMO, which is what Elite is trying to be. (kinda, I guess?)

I definitely agree about the modules. FDL being the perfect example. It's right where it needs to be PVEwise, it's the rail/silent running meta that is making things annoying.
 
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I'm hoping that FD introduce serious ship-performance draw-backs for hull-tank builds. At the moment filling your ship with HRP's barely affects the agility or speed - this needs addressing to make PvP encounters more varied again. Otherwise it's just "oh look... another silent running, all rails, hull-tanking, FDL/FAS ...how original".

Any ship completely full of HRP's should handle like a Cobra MkIV ;)
 

Majinvash

Banned
I'm hoping that FD introduce serious ship-performance draw-backs for hull-tank builds. At the moment filling your ship with HRP's barely affects the agility or speed - this needs addressing to make PvP encounters more varied again. Otherwise it's just "oh look... another silent running, all rails, hull-tanking, FDL/FAS ...how original".

Any ship completely full of HRP's should handle like a Cobra MkIV ;)

My biggest fear is they will counter it by just increasing damage on kinetics.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open
 
My biggest fear is they will counter it by just increasing damage on kinetics.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

Yeah, that would be the wrong approach... Giving the ships a performance penalty would be more realistic, one that stacks with each HRP fitted (based on size & rating).
 
That is why I find PVP so dull - you have to build for the current FOTM meta. There's no point in flying a Combat Asp, when all I want to fly is an Asp.

Welcome to the meta of...well, every game ever. Balance is a difficult thing to achieve, and I love that in Elite the ship you use can be so much down to personal choice.

It does ire me though that they put a lot of attention in to balancing certain areas such as ships, and leave the weapon situation a total mess. Shields, SCBs, heat etc. have all been adjusted and despite people moaning that SCBs have been hit too hard (sorry folks, you'll need to learn to win a fight based on more than just who has more SCBs) it's actually quite a good situation now. But there's no point tweaking anything more on the defensive side until weapons are brought in line with each other. Which in effect means moving away from "get lots of pulse lasers for sustainability, and railguns for quick kills". Pretty sure FD didn't introduce mines to become deep space decorations...
 
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