Why do all the PVP builds I see posted not use shields?

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

I get what you're saying, but the concept still applies. There will always be some kind of meta in a world where the playing field isn't level among all possible ships/modules. There's still differences between ships and flight characteristics, modules etc. The more factors you throw into the pot, the harder it is to balance. I used to be pretty competitive in the old days of Quake/UT2k3, and that translated into WoW for the first few seasons, I gave that aspect up once I realized that the comp was having a significant impact beyond what the players skills were bringing. (Now I'm a PVE scumbag who still keeps a highly ranked Monk ) Even something like SC2 still has balancing issues even though it's primarily focused on the PVP aspect, and it's far simpler than something like an MMO, which is what Elite is trying to be. (kinda, I guess?)

I definitely agree about the modules. FDL being the perfect example. It's right where it needs to be PVEwise, it's the rail/silent running meta that is making things annoying.

It's not hard to fix this and bring a bit more balance to things but expect tears.
I personally believe it needs sorted asap because the longer it goes on, much like the SCB thing did, the more devisive and problematic the problem becomes...and the knock on effect becomes...then it gets messy which has been a big problem in Open.
First it was SCB's from my experience, now we are at HR's....I'm sure there'll prolly be another but deal with these things as they occur.

 

[Flea King]

..because when you're flying an Orca, you might as well fly a 1 Kiloton armored 400 m/s Orca.

 

[Majinvash]

Yeah, that would be the wrong approach... Giving the ships a performance penalty would be more realistic, one that stacks with each HRP fitted (based on size & rating).

Stacking is ok but they should just write a little code so that they work the same as SCB.
Producing more resistance, based on the size of the slot and the ship it is going into.
That way you could still make Federal ships hull tanky because of their weaker shields.
While the beautiful faster imperial ships have stronger shields and are made of glass when that drops.

Again, lots they could do but one change needs to be considered vs the knock on effect.
They need to spend a few weeks with a PVP group and see what they do with the mechanics in beta.

Regardless what PVE players say, it is the PVP players that are going to find the next OP meta.. Which we then need to fix... circle.. continues...

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

Stacking is ok but they should just write a little code so that they work the same as SCB.
Producing more resistance, based on the size of the slot and the ship it is going into.
That way you could still make Federal ships hull tanky because of their weaker shields.
While the beautiful faster imperial ships have stronger shields and are made of glass when that drops.

Again, lots they could do but one change needs to be considered vs the knock on effect.
They need to spend a few weeks with a PVP group and see what they do with the mechanics in beta.

Regardless what PVE players say, it is the PVP players that are going to find the next OP meta.. Which we then need to fix... circle.. continues...

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

Stacking is not okay, all you're doing is protecting your interests which will never bring traders back to open.
While you maintain that belief, open will only be the plaything of only combat orientated players.
Maybe that's what you want, maybe not.
Either way, if your sole ideal is only to PvP with Meta builds you like then no other roles will ever be able to compete, realize they are fodder and move elsewhere so which is it to be?
Balance the game to be fair for all roles?
Make it a Pew Pew only fest in Open?

 

[Julio Montega]

Stacking is not okay, all you're doing is protecting your interests which will never bring traders back to open.
While you maintain that belief, open will only be the plaything of only combat orientated players.
Maybe that's what you want, maybe not.
Either way, if your sole ideal is only to PvP with Meta builds you like then no other roles will ever be able to compete, realize they are fodder and move elsewhere so which is it to be?
Balance the game to be fair for all roles?
Make it a Pew Pew only fest in Open?

To be fair,
if you would totally prohibit module stacking,
that would have to affect cargo bays aswell.
So unless the interest is to have "fixed" stats for ships, which are way more easy to handle,
than "customizable" ships, stacking has to stay.
HRPs are currently strong, but SCBs have been before, too.

If you want to change the meta crap turn into more interesting stuff leave the HRPs as they are now
and touch chaff interaction with fixed weapons. That might lead to more close combat,
more usage of gimbals, and less stealth, due to close engagement ranges.

 

[Majinvash]

Stacking is not okay, all you're doing is protecting your interests which will never bring traders back to open.
While you maintain that belief, open will only be the plaything of only combat orientated players.
Maybe that's what you want, maybe not.
Either way, if your sole ideal is only to PvP with Meta builds you like then no other roles will ever be able to compete, realize they are fodder and move elsewhere so which is it to be?
Balance the game to be fair for all roles?
Make it a Pew Pew only fest in Open?

Stop throthing, get off your soap box, read the full context of what I wrote.

They need to do something with HRP's.

Options are

Remove
Nerf
Buff
Stack multiplier
Fixed Amounts
Code based on Application.

What ever they do will effect EVERYONE including the players, which apparently I just want to kitten stomp.
If they remove them, you will still complain when you get sent to the rebuy screen by a better player or a smarter wing.

Open is Open

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

 

[CMDR Mansoul]

snip
in WoW everytime you changed an ability it had knock-on consequences because you had to do PvE with the same character you PvP'd with, Nobody in ED does PVE in a 5 rails silent running FDL
snip

Are you intercoursing kidding? There are many huge threads here where people complain about having to do PvP when they want to PvE.

Proper balance would mean there is no such thing as PvP builds with overwhelming advantages over PvE builds.

Things like 1 HRP, 1 SCB per ship, or diminishing returns for extra ones. Also enforcing 1 v 1 fights and not gang v 1 (like a beacon deactivating piece of gear).

Then you'll see way less complains of ganking.

 

[Majinvash]

Are you intercoursing kidding? There are many huge threads here where people complain about having to do PvP when they want to PvE.

Proper balance would mean there is no such thing as PvP builds with overwhelming advantages over PvE builds.

Things like 1 HRP, 1 SCB per ship, or diminishing returns for extra ones. Also enforcing 1 v 1 fights and not gang v 1 (like a beacon deactivating piece of gear).

Then you'll see way less complains of ganking.

How do you produce this balance without removing peoples choice of how they setup their own ship?
Also you would stop ALL players working cooperatively with each other.

The tears would still be flowing because you have people who honestly believe they are good because they can beat NPCs, then you have PVP players.

Working with your PVE vs PVP reduced options idea.
Below are two ships, based around 1 Cell and 1 HRP.

One is what I would expect you would see as a PVE bounty hunter( Maybe swap out the MC's for more pulse )

http://coriolis.io/outfit/python/27A6A5A4D7A6D5C1e1e0o27270404020m4f5n-2d-----.Iw18eQ==.Aw18eQ==

This would be my build with the same restraints

http://coriolis.io/outfit/python/37A6A5A4D7A6D5C2b2b2b2a2a040402044f5n-2d-----.AwRj4yoo.Aw18eQ==

I would confidently say that if you had two equal skilled pilots, one has the clear advantage.

Also by making ships weaker overall, which is realistically what your idea would produce.
NPC Farmers would be able to spend significantly less time farming between rearm/repairs.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

 

[Derath]

Are you intercoursing kidding? There are many huge threads here where people complain about having to do PvP when they want to PvE.

Proper balance would mean there is no such thing as PvP builds with overwhelming advantages over PvE builds.

Things like 1 HRP, 1 SCB per ship, or diminishing returns for extra ones. Also enforcing 1 v 1 fights and not gang v 1 (like a beacon deactivating piece of gear).

Then you'll see way less complains of ganking.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I said, this isn't about the dynamics of pve vs pvp interaction its a thread about pvp builds, and that response was one questioning why they don't do anything to balance them.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

I get what you're saying, but the concept still applies. There will always be some kind of meta in a world where the playing field isn't level among all possible ships/modules. There's still differences between ships and flight characteristics, modules etc. The more factors you throw into the pot, the harder it is to balance. I used to be pretty competitive in the old days of Quake/UT2k3, and that translated into WoW for the first few seasons, I gave that aspect up once I realized that the comp was having a significant impact beyond what the players skills were bringing. (Now I'm a PVE scumbag who still keeps a highly ranked Monk ) Even something like SC2 still has balancing issues even though it's primarily focused on the PVP aspect, and it's far simpler than something like an MMO, which is what Elite is trying to be. (kinda, I guess?)

I definitely agree about the modules. FDL being the perfect example. It's right where it needs to be PVEwise, it's the rail/silent running meta that is making things annoying.

Yeah its like you say, but equally I find 99% of the appeal for playing FPS online is the fact its about as even as you can get, i'm an old UT player too. I just get grumpy because they don't even try

 

[Zeeman]

It's probably because the standard PvP tactics don't work in CQC - there's no hull-tanking, no wings outside of TDM, lock can be broken without perma-silent running/heatsinks, evasion means more than boosting past the nose and high-waking out, and cover actually means something: physical line-of-sight barriers that block weapons.

It plays very differently.

Oh.. You mean all the stuff that makes PvP fun?

z...

 

[the100thmonkey]

Oh.. You mean all the stuff that makes PvP fun?

z...

(8 chars)

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

To be fair,
if you would totally prohibit module stacking,
that would have to affect cargo bays aswell.
So unless the interest is to have "fixed" stats for ships, which are way more easy to handle,
than "customizable" ships, stacking has to stay.
HRPs are currently strong, but SCBs have been before, too.

If you want to change the meta crap turn into more interesting stuff leave the HRPs as they are now
and touch chaff interaction with fixed weapons. That might lead to more close combat,
more usage of gimbals, and less stealth, due to close engagement ranges.

No, it wouldn't because you're just using that argument as a means to invalidate trading which is very much part of how the game works and part of the game.
Anything that is combat centric, may it be defensive or offensive needs to be put through this scrutiny including shield boosters and chaff.
Slots that are designated to cargo do not affect other players and weaken a player's defensive capabilities so they are moot in this, they reduce a player's options to fight back or even survive. They already run at a disadvantage against combat ships, where could never become combat viable anyways, so why do you want more of an advantage?
Open is devoid of trader because of this imbalance. Why can't you see that.

Stop throthing, get off your soap box, read the full context of what I wrote.

They need to do something with HRP's.

Options are

Remove
Nerf
Buff
Stack multiplier
Fixed Amounts
Code based on Application.

What ever they do will effect EVERYONE including the players, which apparently I just want to kitten stomp.
If they remove them, you will still complain when you get sent to the rebuy screen by a better player or a smarter wing.

Open is Open

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

I had to google "throthing"...was entertaining.
Anyhoo, I digress about such things...

The options you suggest don't come accompanied with specific reasons why to do or deny these things.
If you want to make a case for any, if not all cases then feel free but to just spam all these things without any reasoning behind your suggested actions is not helping make your case.
So try a little harder to make your case please.

Stacking is still stacking, whether you are favoured or not...but it's bad and destabilizes the game.
Bring balance to the game and everyone is happy. Only cater to one sub-section and everyone else is sad. Kinda simple really.

As for the rest and the lame accusation of what I might do, you don't have half the information you need to have to say such a thing.
But, I like games so answer me this:
Where do I play? (you get a point if I mode switch and which one's I switch to)
Solo
PG
Open
I stopped playing a while back

Which is it or do I swap around, you decide.

I know what you are and you still give away your mindset time and time again on these forums and ppl aren't stupid.
But sure, keep on trying there squire.
But, the more you type, the more ppl will just facepalm everything you say.
"You do it to yourself you do, you and no-one else"...some band sang that a fair bit ago but it is so apt in your case.

 

[Jex =TE=]

Yup, totally agree with this. I also rather enjoy CQC, and totally agree with CQC being fun because it's based far more on your skill.

Z...

Do you mean knowing where all the power ups are and using your gimballed lasers?

 

[Zeeman]

Do you mean knowing where all the power ups are and using your gimballed lasers?

Well, clearly, the "serious PvP" crowd know where the power ups are. And you get 15% off if you are in LYR territory...

POT.

KETTLE.

BLACK.

The big difference is, in CQC, I actually have the chance to evade Powerup Guy with a little skill and fancy flying. In open space, I'm screwed form the second we spawn in the instance - unless I have pretty much the exact same build as you (and everyone else who is a "serious" PvP'er).

Z...

 

[Lily from anim.o.v.e]

Yeah, that would be the wrong approach... Giving the ships a performance penalty would be more realistic, one that stacks with each HRP fitted (based on size & rating).

Well HRP penalty should already be applied by the mass it costs, since this effects jumprange and boostrange.
BVut SCb's are the true issue them being stackable breaks anything, because ther eis no reason for any non combat outfitted pilot to battle a combat outfitted pilot when that guy just brings on 3x more shields A cutter with &prisma and 2x8B has so much shields available its just a joke. So the only true option a non combat pilot has is to escape, but a battle makes no sense.

Stacking is ok but they should just write a little code so that they work the same as SCB.
Producing more resistance, based on the size of the slot and the ship it is going into.
That way you could still make Federal ships hull tanky because of their weaker shields.
While the beautiful faster imperial ships have stronger shields and are made of glass when that drops.

Again, lots they could do but one change needs to be considered vs the knock on effect.
They need to spend a few weeks with a PVP group and see what they do with the mechanics in beta.

Regardless what PVE players say, it is the PVP players that are going to find the next OP meta.. Which we then need to fix... circle.. continues...

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

I disagree, they initially need to find a seperator in outfitting a ship that seperates PVE capabilities form PVP capabilities. Because as along as PVE vital components can be changed into battle components the non PVP (battle oriented) will be too inferior to ever make the majority of PvE gamers willing to go to open. SCB's should be utility mounts, So that ther eis a competition between shield strenght and recharge that does not affect internal components. The shield generator in general should nto be an internal, it should be a system component like FSD thrusters and CO. Ontop Internals should allo ammo storages, its a joke how low some wepaons ammo is (especially missiles and torpedoes) but it would hlp these systems to be more than just burth damage systems when people use internals to be able to reammo (even if it could mean being outside a battle similar to Field maintenance units).

A meta only exists when balance is bad, because the meta erases any inferior choices and uses what works most efficient. Stone paper Scicssor has no meta, its a perfectly balanced game system. But imagien you add Sanpaper to that system which is able to beat scissor as well, yet not able to beat stone, but cannot be beaten by stone. Poeple would now heavily tend to use sandpaper because it cnanot be beaten but still betas scissor. And there you go a meta appears. And Scisscor is the first that disappears followed by stone, because without scossor existing stone isn't needed anymore. And when frontier truly wants to bring PVE people to open they need to seperate ships PVP and PVE capabilities. After this is done the balance within the PVP needs to happen and balance within the PvE.

Do you mean knowing where all the power ups are and using your gimballed lasers?

well you don't need to knwo where all the power ups are, if you do not fully go PVP you already know that you cannot even store any power proper ups. Two equally competent and skilled pilots is what defines the balance of a games mechanic, and if these two meet in a pvp and non pvp combat outfit, we do know how it ends.

 

[Majinvash]

No, it wouldn't because you're just using that argument as a means to invalidate trading which is very much part of how the game works and part of the game.
Anything that is combat centric, may it be defensive or offensive needs to be put through this scrutiny including shield boosters and chaff.
Slots that are designated to cargo do not affect other players and weaken a player's defensive capabilities so they are moot in this, they reduce a player's options to fight back or even survive. They already run at a disadvantage against combat ships, where could never become combat viable anyways, so why do you want more of an advantage?
Open is devoid of trader because of this imbalance. Why can't you see that.




I had to google "throthing"...was entertaining.
Anyhoo, I digress about such things...

The options you suggest don't come accompanied with specific reasons why to do or deny these things.
If you want to make a case for any, if not all cases then feel free but to just spam all these things without any reasoning behind your suggested actions is not helping make your case.
So try a little harder to make your case please.

Stacking is still stacking, whether you are favoured or not...but it's bad and destabilizes the game.
Bring balance to the game and everyone is happy. Only cater to one sub-section and everyone else is sad. Kinda simple really.

As for the rest and the lame accusation of what I might do, you don't have half the information you need to have to say such a thing.
But, I like games so answer me this:
Where do I play? (you get a point if I mode switch and which one's I switch to)
Solo
PG
Open
I stopped playing a while back

Which is it or do I swap around, you decide.

I know what you are and you still give away your mindset time and time again on these forums and ppl aren't stupid.
But sure, keep on trying there squire.
But, the more you type, the more ppl will just facepalm everything you say.
"You do it to yourself you do, you and no-one else"...some band sang that a fair bit ago but it is so apt in your case.

If you took a moment to read what I put.

You would see I had an option other than stacking. (I don't think stacking is the best option at all. Hence "ok")
I then continued to explain how it could work to give balance to ships with weaker shields.

Don't feel so precious I was referring to the generic "you".

Lets stay on topic shall we.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Well HRP penalty should already be applied by the mass it costs, since this effects jumprange and boostrange.
BVut SCb's are the true issue them being stackable breaks anything, because ther eis no reason for any non combat outfitted pilot to battle a combat outfitted pilot when that guy just brings on 3x more shields A cutter with &prisma and 2x8B has so much shields available its just a joke. So the only true option a non combat pilot has is to escape, but a battle makes no sense.

I disagree, they initially need to find a seperator in outfitting a ship that seperates PVE capabilities form PVP capabilities. Because as along as PVE vital components can be changed into battle components the non PVP (battle oriented) will be too inferior to ever make the majority of PvE gamers willing to go to open. SCB's should be utility mounts, So that ther eis a competition between shield strenght and recharge that does not affect internal components. The shield generator in general should nto be an internal, it should be a system component like FSD thrusters and CO. Ontop Internals should allo ammo storages, its a joke how low some wepaons ammo is (especially missiles and torpedoes) but it would hlp these systems to be more than just burth damage systems when people use internals to be able to reammo (even if it could mean being outside a battle similar to Field maintenance units).

A meta only exists when balance is bad, because the meta erases any inferior choices and uses what works most efficient. Stone paper Scicssor has no meta, its a perfectly balanced game system. But imagien you add Sanpaper to that system which is able to beat scissor as well, yet not able to beat stone, but cannot be beaten by stone. Poeple would now heavily tend to use sandpaper because it cnanot be beaten but still betas scissor. And there you go a meta appears. And Scisscor is the first that disappears followed by stone, because without scossor existing stone isn't needed anymore. And when frontier truly wants to bring PVE people to open they need to seperate ships PVP and PVE capabilities. After this is done the balance within the PVP needs to happen and balance within the PvE.

well you don't need to knwo where all the power ups are, if you do not fully go PVP you already know that you cannot even store any power proper ups. Two equally competent and skilled pilots is what defines the balance of a games mechanic, and if these two meet in a pvp and non pvp combat outfit, we do know how it ends.

No Meta exists because there is always in gaming a better tool to do a set job.
The only way to remove this is to give everyone the exact same ship with identical unchangeable load-outs.

Fighting NPC's is mostly about grinding towards a goal, having fun with friends, making credits or genuinely finding them challenging.
Fighting Players is about getting that player to the rebuy screen as fast as possible.
You "could" use the PVP loadout to make really short work on NPC's, you have that option but its not the right option.

Remember this is a game and it has people playing it.

If we remove combat completely.

The current META trading ship is a shieldless Cutter.
It wasn't designed that way, but it is.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

 

[Oogie Boogie]

You saw in the PvP league where it goes. Stealth FdL with Rails and Synthesis is currently the king of the hill. And there you need the most skills to fly and hit your as well silent opponent. Frontier should watch and see where they need to balance. Like thy did in CQC lately with the Rapid Canons.

 

[geoffrey.hdt]

A while ago, I used to PvE with a little Cobra + paper thin shield which dropped regularly while fighting wings or big ships. I used to fight as long as I could and headed back to the station when my hull dropped too low.
I liked it.

I then switched to a Clipper for which the shield simply never dropped at all. I used to fight as long as I could and headed back to the station when I ran out of SCBs.
It was actually boring.

I now use a "PvP" FAS shieldless with 3 frag cannons and a gimbal beam. I still use it for PvE (occasionally since I go for PvP) and have way more fun dodging continuously NPC fire to limit as much as possible hull damage, keep my frags to take down the power plant of big ships, etc...
It is still efficient for PvE (for instance, I get over 2 millions credits at a RES before I need to go repair / reload) and way "funnier" (though NPCs are not up to the challenge against me anymore).

 

[Lily from anim.o.v.e]

No Meta exists because there is always in gaming a better tool to do a set job.
The only way to remove this is to give everyone the exact same ship with identical unchangeable load-outs.

Fighting NPC's is mostly about grinding towards a goal, having fun with friends, making credits or genuinely finding them challenging.
Fighting Players is about getting that player to the rebuy screen as fast as possible.
You "could" use the PVP loadout to make really short work on NPC's, you have that option but its not the right option.

Remember this is a game and it has people playing it.

If we remove combat completely.

The current META trading ship is a shieldless Cutter.
It wasn't designed that way, but it is.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

I doubt you understand balance at all, a meta does not necessarily exist, it only exists in a bad balanced environment. If you palyed enough PVP games you would know how some with proper balance work, and why badly done ones have a meta. Many strategy games have that little exta where Spears -->horses-->infantry-->spears creates a well estapblished circle and where not mixing and playing these right will make you fail hard. The meta in Ed is real because it is extremely imbalanced.

Saying there is ALWAYS a better tool is just plain out wrong, that thesis already brakes at the stone, paper scissor game example

A while ago, I used to PvE with a little Cobra + paper thin shield which dropped regularly while fighting wings or big ships. I used to fight as long as I could and headed back to the station when my hull dropped too low.
I liked it.

I then switched to a Clipper for which the shield simply never dropped at all. I used to fight as long as I could and headed back to the station when I ran out of SCBs.
It was actually boring.

I now use a "PvP" FAS shieldless with 3 frag cannons and a gimbal beam. I still use it for PvE (occasionally since I go for PvP) and have way more fun dodging continuously NPC fire to limit as much as possible hull damage, keep my frags to take down the power plant of big ships, etc...
It is still efficient for PvE (for instance, I get over 2 millions credits at a RES before I need to go repair / reload) and way "funnier" (though NPCs are not up to the challenge against me anymore).

now play the clipper without SCB's. SCB's are such a huge thing in the way they work. Wonder if SCB's wuld be more interesting and balanced if they had a charge of like 1000MJ and then additionally add shieled replenishemt of like 0.2MJ wen the shield drops below 100%. That would heavily reduce their health pot abilities.

 

[geoffrey.hdt]

As for HRPs stronger than shield, I disagree. It depends what ship you fly, and how you fly.

As long as you manage to keep your shield up and pop SCBs on time, shield is stronger than HRPs. Example: FdL full of shield boosters.

But if your shield drops before you use most of your SCBs, you'd better have equipped HRPs instead.

Now if the shield comes back online before the end of the fight, it's again another story.

Last but not least, the real imbalance to me is with the low class HRPs which provide almost as much hull points as the high class. It does not make any sense, but at least an armored DBS has some chance to do me some damage before I popped him with my armored FAS. Also, I still don't understand why there are no class 6 / 7 HRPs...