My god, really?, so PVP'ers and pirates, not content with hijacking 'roleplaying' - an insult to all the real RP'ers out there, the PK'ers, not content with hijacking 'piracy' - an insult to all the real pirates out there, are now trying to hijack 'emergent gameplay' too, seriously?......This is not emergent, it is simply gameplay, nothing more, nothing less. Hell, if that is 'emergent gameplay', then me asking where an NPC is in WoW is also 'emergent gameplay', me doing the 'you no take candle' quest in Elwyn Forest was 'emergent gameplay', you know, because I decided to actually go to the quest giver and then run to and complete the actual quest. It is just intended gameplay Yin, that is all it is and all it ever will be, no matter how much it is dressed up.
Let's see your piracy macros!
- Thread starter Maverick and Goose
- Start date
My god, really?, so PVP'ers and pirates, not content with hijacking 'roleplaying' - an insult to all the real RP'ers out there, the PK'ers, not content with hijacking 'piracy' - an insult to all the real pirates out there, are now trying to hijack 'emergent gameplay' too, seriously?......This is not emergent, it is simply gameplay, nothing more, nothing less. Hell, if that is 'emergent gameplay', then me asking where an NPC is in WoW is also 'emergent gameplay', me doing the 'you no take candle' quest in Elwyn Forest was 'emergent gameplay', you know, because I decided to actually go to the quest giver and then run to and complete the actual quest. It is just intended gameplay Yin, that is all it is and all it ever will be, no matter how much it is dressed up.
I agree that the game intends to support pirates (even if it's not doing a very good job right now). But I suppose you could say I'm a skeptic of its ability to effectively do so since based on what you and others have said, it relies at least partially on the victim's willingness to play the victim to work.
There's probably a reason why games about getting robbed never really took off, but games about being the robber enjoy some successNow, if there were an RP Private Group, I could see it working there. But I think it's asking a lot for non-consensual RP to produce consistently enjoyable results.
I don't think pvp piracy is a problem that needs solving, it just needs improving.
Most traders will never like being robbed, there's no way around that. IMHO that doesn't mean it should be relegated to a specific RP group somewhere, finding a trader in a group like that would be next to impossible (it's difficult enough in open).
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Op, kudos for opening hails before initiating the interdiction - if that ever happens to me, I'll leave my throttle at 0 and wait to see what you want to say. The habit of waiting to send a message until after the "mini-game" is over means I'm already in the boost-boost-highwake mindset.
Another idea to consider:
Cargo scan - while I mostly fly cargo-capable ships, I often don't carry cargo. If you simply demand that I drop cargo or you'll open fire, my only perceived option is to run. Why would you believe me when I say I have no cargo? I was interdicted in my T6 by a cobra, and felt that I had to run during repeated interdictions simply because my cargo was empty... was on my way to a station to pickup some cargo for a charity mission. I was amused by the CMDR trying to convince me that running = death while we were sitting in the station, though.
The majority of my encounters with CMDR pirates have resulted in me running, simply because they failed to convince me that my safest option is to comply. Assuring me that your top priority is to score some free cargo is essential to ensuring my cooperation.
Posturing threats, however, are often ignored.
Another idea to consider:
Cargo scan - while I mostly fly cargo-capable ships, I often don't carry cargo. If you simply demand that I drop cargo or you'll open fire, my only perceived option is to run. Why would you believe me when I say I have no cargo? I was interdicted in my T6 by a cobra, and felt that I had to run during repeated interdictions simply because my cargo was empty... was on my way to a station to pickup some cargo for a charity mission. I was amused by the CMDR trying to convince me that running = death while we were sitting in the station, though.
The majority of my encounters with CMDR pirates have resulted in me running, simply because they failed to convince me that my safest option is to comply. Assuring me that your top priority is to score some free cargo is essential to ensuring my cooperation.
Posturing threats, however, are often ignored.
PVP piracy isn't the problem; it's just a useful thing to point at. People having a lack of control over when they get shot at (for any reason) is the problem. That's literally it. Frontier made that choice; in that people do not get to choose when they are shot at, with respect to open.
Anything, at all, that is some flavour relating to the commanders inability to self-determine when the shooting will occur, and whom or what it will occur with, will trigger the same responses. Because that's the core issue. Crime and punishment is a facet of that. As is straight up PVP. And piracy. They're all a symptom or an expression of it.
It all comes down to that lack of self-determination. And until frontier decide to invent a way to do that? This
Woa.. some very long macros.
"Now, I understand this situation is awkward for both of us, so let's get over with it quickly and noone will get hurt."
(great pickup line, too)
"Now, I understand this situation is awkward for both of us, so let's get over with it quickly and noone will get hurt."
(great pickup line, too)
I have had FAR better success sending messages BEFORE interdiction for reasons you mentioned. As an added bonus, I no longer feel guilty for having trigger finger if I see glowing drives. If I'm in my orca, I'll play for a bit before it gets real.
So if you'd indulge me a moment longer, what do you think starts making the kinds of macros the OP is talking about start actually working? Or, what is going to improve piracy by such an extent that it overcomes the basic trouble that right now (whether pirates like it this way or not) actually getting a good piracy moment in the game does largely depend on 'playing along'?
I don't tend to PvP but I'm not against it in principle, so let's say that some time I go into open. Unlikely, but it could happen. How do you persuade me to drop my cargo, and if that's not going to happen with the current gameplay, what improvements could happen that will encourage me to do so? Genuine question.
So let me get this right, you've decided (the group you, not just individual), that your way to play this game is to deliberately take action to reduce other players' enjoyment of said game?
Hmm, there's a word for such people... but though it's on the tip of my tongue, I just can't seem to say it1...
Or maybe I'm wrong... tell me this is not the case, as I'd like to know how you'd describe it.
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1 If I did say it, I'd probably get a telling off (at least) from the mods.
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I have an X55 Rhino....
I'd not have gone that far... I don't want a ban!
A declare piracy function might help; (yes I've posted this in other threads)
Usually with a fast well armed ship
Remember this thread isn't about PvP vs PvE, this is about the way in which Pirates/Traders communicate and its current short-comings.
This seems like a misread of what I was saying. What I was saying is that based on what people are saying, piracy right now depends on not one, but two things.
First of all it depends on Non-Consensual PvP, which I'm happy to acknowledge is the default state of Open. (although there IS such a thing as consensual PvP, it happens by player agreement rather than something built into the game)
Secondly, and the bit I was trying to draw attention to, it kind of seems to depend on the willingness of the player to play along, right now (i.e. willingness to be dragged into an RP).
In order for piracy to be an emergent Thing, a few things have to be true:
1) There needs to be at least a fair chance that simply demanding someone drop cargo will work. This is the whole point of using the piracy approach. If it isn't particularly effective there's no point, and plenty of people are saying they rarely succeed in pirating someone in this manner.
2) There needs to be strong consequences to pirating, which we know there aren't.
3) There needs to be strong consequences to decisions when being pirated, which there sort of are, but clearly not enough to dissuade people from running (which relates back to 1) or just self-sacrifice.
So right now none of these things are providing the emergent PvP pirates seem to crave. So nearly all the actual 'happy' pirating experiences I hear about from victims are the ones where they seemed happy to play along as the victim, i.e. they were into the RP aspect of being pirated.
It rather seems to me that play-along piracy, as it was referred to earlier, is simply the reality, right now.
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Usually with a fast well armed ship
If it's fast and well armed, where will you put the stolen cargo?
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I know... sorry it did come across that way...
But it's all "me me me, want want want, give or die"...
If you want the victim to give you cargo and roleplay, then you have to give something back1, and right now, it's all one way.
No wonder that people don't wish to play your way.
It's probably, as I think has been said already, disconcerting when you get asked to drop your cargo (often all of it) for an attacker flying a wing of Eagles or Vultures. I mean if I drop a tonne of tea you'll be so overloaded you won't be able to low-wake.
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1 I assume you intend to give a gameplay experience, but as things stand, it's not what your intended victims want, or if it is, then you're doing something wrong since they obviously don't stick around for more.
If that's your experience, then fair enough. I hope you report them so it can be checked... or are you just adding people with a dodgy connection to a KOS list?
Also, and only FD have the numbers so it's just idle speculation...
I wonder about the ratio of traders who log out when threatened with interdiction (incorrectly referred to as combat logging since there is no combat from either side, let alone both), compared with the number of attackers (word used as it could be pirates, gankers, bounty hunters or PPers) who combat log when their victim turns out to be less of an easy target than they assumed was the case, and who just started shooting their ship out from under them. I'd really like to have clarification of this.
Dodgy connections have completely different symptoms to combat logging generally, its extremely easy to tell which one is happening, i've let a few people go who obviously had connection issues, some even apologized and felt quite bad about it. And yes I did report them, but I stopped after a few months as nothing comes of it.
I can actually help with the other half of your question though, but only from my own experience obviously but bounty-hunters combat logged just as often as traders did for me, and there is something especially galling about somebody who deliberately chooses to pick a fight with you, then cheats to escape that fight -_-
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But going back to my original comment about it, assuming every trader is a combat logger is like assuming every pirates a scumbag - its wrong, I can't change anybodys perception of pirates except the few who deal with me, same goes with traders everyones responsible for their own actions, if you want general changes from a group it requires general changes to the framework they exist in (or to the players themselves)
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Chill. We seem to have a differing definition of emergent. I am fine with that.
If you get an unique answer by a player, possibly more or not the kind of info you need and a new friend/enemy/contact - pretty much, yes. Not the most exciting kind, but non the less player created content, thus in my opinion: emergent.
Don't know that one, so I can't judge.
I do not deny that it is "just" game play. But I also wouldn't treat calling player interaction as inherently emergent as "dressing" it up. You can differentiate into different kinds of emergent content beyond that if you like (cooperative, competitive, forced, intended, not intended, ...?).
A bit off topic. Let's leave it at that.
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So there's no reality to claims that it's always the victims who log. Attackers are just as likely. That's pretty much what I'd have assumed, but not being much of a PVPer I don't have numbers to call on.
TBH I've even had NPCs just straight out disappear on me, and not that long ago (fixed now), every time I would get a 'Conda down to zero, I'd CTD. I reported it and the response at the time was that it was something FD were aware of.
It's not an excuse for anyone, but it does go to show that there is a lot more going on than people like to believe.
I'm happy that you can detect a ctl-f4 disconnect though. I suggest applying for a job with FD, since according to them, without inspecting the server logs, they can't.
Disturbing.