you are entitled to that opinion...... and you know what they say about opinions.
I have said it before and will say it again, FD were open about the design from the get go and they made a lot of sales of it.... if a potential customer strongly objects to something then they either need to adapt their expectations or vote with their wallet.
if enough punters wanted ED to be a primarily PvP game they should have done just that, and if the numbers of PvPers were as high as what some intermate on these forums then FD would have to of considered them.
As a PvEer I loved the fact that Elite is and always has been 1st and formost a PvE game..... I think that supporting PvP has been a double edged sword, but i am happy for those who enjoy it, even if it is not for me.... but imo the biggest mistake made with ED is assuming that PvP is in anyway held higher than PvE. it isnt... its an added extra, available as an option if you choose the correct matchmaking mode.
had this not been the case... I would still have bought it, but would not have backed any where near as high as i did. Too many games are going down the MP PvP road and i think it is a huge loss... it is an easy way of getting players playing for a long time i guess. I thank FD for bucking the trend.
The beauty of ED as it is EVERYONE can get involved and feel part of it no matter the mode. It is not just for the small few who are interested in, and have the ability to crush other players.
if you had to get embroiled in PvP to effect the BGS then everyone would be forced to do the whole "best" loadout for PvP, which I find dull as dishwater. I love that i can fly a less than optimal build, just because i prefer it, even tho i know if push came to shove i would possibly get owned by a fully specced for PvP ship..... I can just ignore all that (what is to me) meta nonsense and play elite the way i always have done for years.. only this time see other players and do it co op
Player 1 and Player 2 meet, each have 10 rubberpoints. Player 1 shoots player 2, gaining 10 rubberpoints for his faction and destroying 10 for the other -> PvP has more impact on the BGS -> working as designed.
Player 1 and player 2 don't meet, each have 10 rubberpoints, each add 10 rubberpoints to their faction -> not much gonna change - balanced.
Player 1 and player 2 don't meet, P1 has 15 rubberpoints, P2 10 rubberpoints. P1's faction gains 5 rubberpoints. Balanced for the "better" (more focused, more time available, better equipped) player
Player 1 is in open, player 2 in solo -> they don't meet, they still contribute "balanced" (unless player 1 spends his time "waiting" for another player to show up)
Player 1 wants player 2 moved to open, so they can meet and he shoots player 2 -> more influence trough PvP, but if he misjudges player 2's pewpew prowess, he'll also lose hard for his own faction. (<- and this creates a whole different game .. the "elitist endgame snob" mechanics, where you will not accept unexperienced players into your elite team, because they're that much of a risk)
What stinks about the whole multiplayer in Elite is it is peer to peer and 32 players an instance? Didn't the original Planetside have 500 players per server to begin with in 2003? How far we have come or cost saving on dedicated servers?
it gets even more ugly... assuming you are not wanted, the pvp-"defenders" will gain fines/bounties interdicting you, therefor hurting their controlling minor factions influence... so basically, you can take your sidey, and wait in sc to get shot, making them hurting their influence.
moderators are not FD, they are volunteer fans who are kind enough to give their time to support the forums as well. They are human beings first and foremost.. Rumour has it even FD staff are human too....... I have yet to be convinced however
Seen this a bit recently from a couple of player groups complaining about how they lost a system and that how modes are to blame for it. That people in solo and group can waltz past them and undermine their influence, and there is nothing they can do about it.
1) Affecting the BGS is a PvE only task. You cannot stop undermining with no amount of PvP, unless you are stopping every single ship that enters your system. At best, you can only slow it down. The more resources you put into stopping people, the less you have actually working on defending the influence of your faction.
- The BGS has not much to do with direct undermining. But true, in order to undermine one has to farm NPCs. That's the PvE task. However, I guess when you are talking about "PvPing" in PowerPlay you mean "PvPer attacking a PvEer undermining a system. PvP isn't not only about farming PvE players. It is about protecting their own PvEers as well. From players AND NPCs but mainly players ofcourse.
And the goal is to slow it down. That's the goal PvPers want to achieve. Noone can stop it ofcourse, but neither can a PvE task. The PvE task (fortification) doesn't even slow it down. It is an utterly boring task to counter underming. PvP is the alternative but isn't really effective as it is only really possible in open.
2) Its a numbers game, one largely dominated by who has the more resources in terms of player hours that are dedicated to defending/attacking. The side that has more player hours invested in attacking/defending should win regardless. Even if you are PvPing all the time while you are logged in, defending the system, if the other side has more player hours, you will never stop everyone. To increase your chances at sucessful PvP, you have to wing up, meaning less interdictions as well, so more people flying past you.
- This is wrong in every perspective. No, not the amount of time nor the amount of credits - basically no amount should determine a win/loss. Want a proof? I am not a fan of showing of e-peen but as you are in the wrong perception that for successful PvP only the amount of players determine success or failure, here a vide of me destroying wings of imperial players in the BAAL system all by myself (and later with Exiton to kill that Vette):
That said, what should determine the outcome of a conflict is the skill and knowledge of players. Not the amount of time, credits or players. The better one should win, not the bigger one.
3) There is an attitude that if the PvPers could interdict everyone, they would win all encounters. This one is a bit funny and highly arrogant. Sure, the dedicated PvPers do tend to be (much) better at PvP combat (on average), and fitted for it and are more likely to win, but no guarantees. Some PvE players might be surprisingly good at PvP, they just tend not to be interested it doing it, but would if forced into it. And besides, any PvEer who stops to fight, ties up defending resources anyway.
- Well sure it is pretty easy for the likes like me, a PvPer to interdict an unexperienced player as a dedicated PvEer and kill him with ease. I'll say it straight: PvE is level 1 difficulty while PvP is level 10. So PvP is like 10 times harder I dare to say. I bet with you that every dedicated PvEer will not have a chance against any dedicated PvPer. Not to sound arrogant but to face the actual facts.
4) An assumption that even with successful interdictions you are going to stop people getting through. Imagine the PvE player, wanting to undermine. What ship is he going to choose to get those missions done? Something fast, something that can't be masslocked easily. Ships like the Cobra and Clipper are going to be obvious favourites. Cargo space, speed, and in the case of the Clipper, hard to masslock unless the defenders are flying something big... and big is usually slow. Go ahead, interdict, the attacker can submit and run. Enjoy trying to kill people who constantly run away. Or they can high wake out, and jump back, and while the defenders are dealing with that, others are flying past unattended. The experienced players will get past eventually, one way or another.
- And that's okay. Experienced players can slip through the hands of PvP players but unexperienced ones should simply not have a chance by simply selecting to avoid the hostiles. I quite appreciate that Frontier is thinking of this problem as Sandro already mentioned that he had the idea to reward influence made in open play more than in other modes as, we all no and can't deny, open players are endangered by PvP and tehrefore face more risk than private or solo.
However, I really don't mind if I lose a player who knows how to escape. By escaping I mean high wake, wake-preperation, masslocking, outmanouvering and all the other stuff. But simply selectign another mode is cheap. I accept that it is like that but noone can make me respect these players who simply select private/solo just to avoid PvP AND the itnentionto infleunce PP and/or the BGS.
But watch my video again, my FAS is capable of killing Cobras AND Clippers!
5) PvPers getting involved on the attacking side. When systems are being undermined, its not always just going to be the PvEers getting involved. There could be PvPers, and since they know the system is defending, its a great opportunity for them to get their PvP kicks, they might not even care about the particular system. Some might join the defending side as well. Defenders are then faced with dedicated PvPers taking up their time, inderdicting them, and not allowing them to get on with their jobs of defending the system.
- Don't see a problem with that. In every game we have these "challengers" (Kudos to Cillit Bang at this point) who just go to the so called hotspots and seek for a challenge. That#s neither a problem nor a benefit. It's just there.
6) Instancing - this is a killer. You can defend and defend, and yet people will get past you anyway, some players you will never see. There could even be those players that (wrongly) tinker with their network settings to ensure they never see other players, or maybe they don't tinker, maybe they just had bad connectivity.
- Aye but this has nothing to do with PvP, modes, PvE or other stuff. It is simply a (an really incredible annoying and frustrating and bad and in the history of games cheapest and laziest) way to connect player aka enabling multiplayer. Frontier claimed they haven#t got much experience regarding multipalyer and they do a god damn good job to proof them right.
7) Timezones - you are a Euro group, the attackers are primarily located in a timezone when your players are asleep or at work/school. You're not going to stop them.
- US players attack US players, Europe players attack Europe players, Asian players attack Asian players. I doubt that Asians take alliance, Europe take Federation and the US take Imperial. In this case this would be a problem, yes, but it isn't like that.
NEW! 8) Someone said having the ability to PvP gives them a chance. Another fallacy unless it happens in CZ. If you try and stop attackers in your system by interdicting them, then unless they are wanted (which they probably won't be), attacking and killing them will reduce security and increase civil unrest, which you really don't want in your own system. And unless you are an Anarchy, it will result in a bounty on your head, in your own system, which presumably is not ideal when you are trying to defend it... it will even reduce your chances of being able to take missions to support your faction.
- I personally don't care about the BGS or a bounty on my head. Let's face it, the punishing system in ED is ridiculous. the AI is ridiculous (Viper interdicting my Corvette?) and the BGS doesn't influence the weapon market anyways.
And this is sad. IMO it should be WAY more punishing and the BGs should actually mean something. It would be cool if a minor player faction could command their NPC security vessels to interdict everyone and perform a system blockade. This owuld also kill the timezone factor. And more then Vipers please.
All in all PvP is about "who is the best?" while PvE is about "who has the most?". And considering I can easily do an unexperienced player Anaconda in my Viper, going into another mode where only assests and credits matter (or time) is just a cheap way of dealing with someone's own weakness rather than improving yourself. :/
All in all PvP is about "who is the best?" while PvE is about "who has the most?". And considering I can easily do an unexperienced player Anaconda in my Viper, going into another mode where only assests and credits matter (or time) is just a cheap way of dealing with someone's own weakness rather than improving yourself. :/
Uhm.. but why someone plays the game is up to them, isn't it?
I do pottery for self improvement and play computergames to relax from the stress of pottery. Am I wrong?
If you feel "your" faction is being undermined you can always work the BGS to shore up the influence of it again. That's pretty much all there is to say about it.
Even if it were all condensed to one mode - sitting in "your" system all day might deter enemy ships from entering, but how long does it take until people get bored by doing that?
While you play watchdog I can go somewhere else and do my thing. The Résistance never sleeps (Bless you, Pacifica players!) and strikes without notice.
That depends heavily on the quality of your output. If you bother people with abominable pottery creations, hideous and disturbing to look at - the kind that makes kids cry and dogs poop - yeah, that would be kinda wrong.
Uhm.. but why someone plays the game is up to them, isn't it?
I do pottery for self improvement and play computergames to relax from the stress of pottery. Am I wrong?
No, ofcourse not. Nothing is wrong doing something as it is permitted but some things people simply shouldn't do. As for example insulting people is not really punishable by the law, or pooping on the street but people simply shouldn't do it. It is "impolite"
Just as switching to solo/private for the sole purpose to influence PowerPlay and/or the BGS without facing PvP because one knows he/she isn#t capable of PvP is just cheap/impolite.
Just as switching to solo/private for the sole purpose to influence PowerPlay and/or the BGS without facing PvP because one knows he/she isn#t capable of PvP is just cheap/impolite.
Or to maximise your impact with no risk of player reciprocity. All those unshielded Type 9's carrying 500t of Fortification tokens in PP from the comfort of solo mode being a prime example.
*NOTE: I know this thread was referring to BGS, but again, using a clear cut example.*
There seems to be a bit of confusion here and I'd like to confirm a few things if that's fine.
I'm assuming the term undermining is used not in its PowerPlay context, but rather as a general term.
This is about the Background Simulation. Not PowerPlay.
An example of the specifics discussed would be the recent 51TH Massilia Corp. fiasco.
If this is the case, I'm prone to agreeing.
By focusing on not directly trying to move minor faction influence, you are effectively shooting yourself in the foot. Walt Kerman's guide to minor factions, as well as the Mercs of Mikunn threads, should probably be among in the mandatory curriculum before submitting a request to be added as a minor faction.
Opinions can differ about whether or not it is right. But it is what it is. /em shrug
Just as switching to solo/private for the sole purpose to influence PowerPlay and/or the BGS without facing PvP because one knows he/she isn#t capable of PvP is just cheap/impolite.
That is very perception biased. A game cannot account for a player's motivations.
I simply doubt that many "PvPers" really care about the BGS or Power Play and just use it as excuse to push for more importance of combat Player vs. Player interaction.
IMHO PP should be Open only. I don't care about any other aspect of the game, trading, exploration, mining can be done in solo or private groups, that's fine. But I would like to be able to face those CMDRs in fat cargo ships trying to fortify while I'm undermining. Right now I see none. Probably 95% of PP is done in solo/groups. Out of those 95% probably a good majority of CMDRs choose solo/groups simply because they see no reason to disadvantage themselves for no reason (especially when the opposition they compete with uses solo/private), but they wouldn't mind being forced to do it in Open if everyone is forced to do so.
A possible example, maybe - from a brief scan of the relevant thread on reddit it would seem that there is no guarantee that there were actually any players in Solo / Private Groups opposing the players in question....
you are entitled to that opinion...... and you know what they say about opinions.
I have said it before and will say it again, FD were open about the design from the get go and they made a lot of sales of it.... if a potential customer strongly objects to something then they either need to adapt their expectations or vote with their wallet.
if enough punters wanted ED to be a primarily PvP game they should have done just that, and if the numbers of PvPers were as high as what some intermate on these forums then FD would have to of considered them.
As a PvEer I loved the fact that Elite is and always has been 1st and formost a PvE game..... I think that supporting PvP has been a double edged sword, but i am happy for those who enjoy it, even if it is not for me.... but imo the biggest mistake made with ED is assuming that PvP is in anyway held higher than PvE. it isnt... its an added extra, available as an option if you choose the correct matchmaking mode.
had this not been the case... I would still have bought it, but would not have backed any where near as high as i did. Too many games are going down the MP PvP road and i think it is a huge loss... it is an easy way of getting players playing for a long time i guess. I thank FD for bucking the trend.
The beauty of ED as it is EVERYONE can get involved and feel part of it no matter the mode. It is not just for the small few who are interested in, and have the ability to crush other players.
if you had to get embroiled in PvP to effect the BGS then everyone would be forced to do the whole "best" loadout for PvP, which I find dull as dishwater. I love that i can fly a less than optimal build, just because i prefer it, even tho i know if push came to shove i would possibly get owned by a fully specced for PvP ship..... I can just ignore all that (what is to me) meta nonsense and play elite the way i always have done for years.. only this time see other players and do it co op
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