Should the Corvette get a better jump range?

[Viking84]

We may be talking past each other here so I will take this bit by bit:

No, I said: "If jumprange matters, why not pick the Anaconda to go fighting?"

So for players who expect to go fighting in-system or close to home the Corvette is a good option, for players who expect to go fighting long distances away from the system they're based, the Anaconda is the better option. You chose the ship based on what you're planning to use it for.

I understand how the game works at the moment. I don't, however, agree with it, for reasons I have hopefully made clear, and that I haven't seen a single sensible argument against.

Now you are talking about choosing the ship if you want to explore. If you want to go exploring of course you pick the ship most suitable for exploring. The alternative is: hey I want to explore, lets pick the Corvette. I want to defend my system, lets pick the Corvette. I want to go smuggling, lets pick the Corvette. I'm not seeing the bigger variety in ship choice there.

The variety would come from the players individual preferences, and the task they wish to accomplish. If the only differentiator that FDev have is the distance travelled, then they haven't done a very good job with creating the ships then have they? I don't believe this is the case though, I think there is sufficient variation in the ships that people would choose lots of different vessels for different roles, without the need to force low jump ranges on us.

Ok, last time. If you again attribute the motivator: "defend it because it's here" to me, I don't see the point in continuing this discussion.

I would stop, but you are not actually giving any examples of why balancing with FSD jump range is a good idea, all you are doing is re-iterating how the game currently functions. Which is a bit pointless, as most of us happen to play the same game.

And work around it by choosing a different ship is the point isn't it? We are talking about actually having to make a choice, instead of: pick any ship, they can all handle everything, so have a ball. Maybe the disconnect here is that you feel there should indeed be an end-game ship. Once you've grinded your way to the Corvette, that's all you ever need. I'm more partial to the idea that the lower range ships still have a role to full-fill even if you have the top-tier ships at your disposal.

As I have stated a few times - I want the ships to be different, I want them to be suited for different roles. I don't want them to be differentiated primarily by the level of boredom you have to endure while travelling. Could anyone of the "jump range is fine as it is" crowd please explain why this makes for good game design, in a rational manner, without resorting to "play something else if you don't like it"? (That last one was not intended to you Ziggy as you've kept it more civil than that, but it has been thrown around a number of times in this thread).

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

You want to try that one again? This IS about getting somewhere faster, pure and simple. There is no inhabited system in the bubble you can't reach with a Corvette or any other ship for that matter, this isn't about what you can or can't reach, it's about getting places faster, that's it. There are multiple ships that can't match the jump range of the Corvette and FDL, did you know that? Not all of those are combat ships either. Funny thing, it's not THOSE ships that people keep asking to have the jump range increased on, over and over again. Why is that?
…

For me it's about being able to reach systems. I have problems to reach systems in the bubble with my Corvette. Some systems I can't reach, others result in a long detour for a system that is 25 ly away. As a patrol ship that's problematic.
For the same reason the T-9 is a bad trading ship. The jump range is too short for use in regions of the bubble where the systems aren't close together. The T-9 could be used as a in-system trader, but I never found systems where trading without jumping to the next system was profitable. (It would be cool if I could make some credits by hauling food from an agricultural station to an extraction or industrial station within a system).

With all the other ships I used/use I never noticed such problems with the jump-range.

I would be happy if we could make "void-jumps". Hyperspace jumps without a star as the destination. That way ships with a short jump-range could reach systems that are out of range. The jump range for "void-jumps" could be reduced to 50% for safety reasons.

(And maybe explorers could find interesting astronomical stuff - rough planets or maybe cold stelar remnants that could then be used as a jump destination and be obviously extremely valuable but incredible rare - I'm getting off topic.)

No, I said: "If jumprange matters, why not pick the Anaconda to go fighting?"

So for players who expect to go fighting in-system or close to home the Corvette is a good option, for players who expect to go fighting long distances away from the system they're based, the Anaconda is the better option. …

While I agree with the idea - use the right ship for the task - I think in the case of the Corvette it's a bit problematic. The Corvette is the most used warship of the Federation. I think it should be able to get everywhere in the bubble without problems and without being carried there by a Farragut. That's the long-range patrol part of the description. If I want to role-play a CMDR working for the Federal Auxiliary Navy, then I want to use the Corvette (and that ship simply looks cool).
It doesn't matter for me if it takes 10 jumps with an Anaconda or 20 jumps with a Corvette. It get's annoying if it takes 60 jumps with the Corvette or if I can't reach the destination at all. (I once had to make 17 jumps to reach a system I could reach with a fully laden Anaconda in 3 jumps)

Maybe Core Dynamics should make a ship like the Anaconda, but with the typical Core Dynamics look (Just a new model for the anaconda OK, that's OT too)

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

We may be talking past each other here so I will take this bit by bit

I think there's many ways in which this is true. For instance I've tried twice to give examples why the FSD has a role to play in ship choice, and got told twice I'm not giving examples or that the FSD limits choice. I think we have different ideas on what ship choice constitutes and how it's intended to be used. So, without any hard feelings or pointing fingers, I feel that continuing might spark frustration because of that which could lead to less civil conversation because of our talking past each other.

Quitting while we're ahead seems to be the best option

 

[Viking84]

I think there's many ways in which this is true. For instance I've tried twice to give examples why the FSD has a role to play in ship choice, and got told twice I'm not giving examples or that the FSD limits choice. I think we have different ideas on what ship choice constitutes and how it's intended to be used. So, without any hard feelings or pointing fingers, I feel that continuing might spark frustration because of that which could lead to less civil conversation because of our talking past each other.

Quitting while we're ahead seems to be the best option

Fair enough I do agree that this appears to be a matter of personal preference, as well as each individuals tolerance for repetitive tasks.

As my final entry to this debate: I don't agree that any reasons for FSD range to be used as a balancer have been put forward, only reasons why FSD range currently limits the choice of ships (and therefore currently acts as a balancer). There is a subtle difference there, as anything could be used to limit your enjoyment of one ship for a certain task, but not everything makes for a compelling gameplay experience, or even a compelling tactical exercise when choosing/outfitting your ship. Jump range is such a simple stat, and as it only affects the time required to reach your destination, it doesn't add any tactical element other than avoiding tedium.

Allow me to use an analogy of what poor FSD range in a ship feels like to me. Imagine the Cutter, a most wonderful ship in my opinion. So wonderful in fact, that the devs decided to add a high pitched squeal every time you touched the flight stick, you know, to encourage me to play with the lesser ships. Sure, it would work, and it would drive me insane if I chose to continue flying the Cutter, but it could not be considered good game design, and it would not add anything to the tactical choice of ships and outfitting. For me, FSD range is no different to this. However I am sure someone would argue that I should just fly a less squealy ship, or in fact grow a pair and put some earplugs in...

 

[Sash KX]

I'm not sure why is this discussion happening now again, just few weeks before the Engineers update, when this issue, among many others, will most likely be solved. I have obtained the triple Elite, and pretty much everything this game has to offer, months before Horizons, had a taste of Horizons too at the launch, and then just quit it until some new content gets added. I just got back few days ago to start grinding rank for the Corvette, because it might actually be good in 2.1, unlike the Cutter, ship that I originally wanted. Well Cutter is good for trading yea, but I've had my share of that, never again.
Went from Ensign to Read Admiral in 2 days thanks to Tun, another massively broken thing, and now I'm just waiting for the patch, not taking this thing out of Shinrarta until then. Perhaps Engineers will make Viper MKIV usable too, I wanted to fly that thing since they showed it in the stream for first time, only to be seriously disappointed like most of the forums when we found out how terrible it is. Balancing of this game is really something else, sometimes its really spot on, and sometimes its like developers don't even play their own game. I have faith in them tho, they are recognizing the problems slowly, and solving them even slower, so maybe in a couple of years this game will reach its full potential, as long as they listen to constructive criticism rather than people with too much free time on their hands who think jumping for 2 hours to reach a combat zone is fine.

 

[goemon]

who think jumping for 2 hours to reach a combat zone is fine.

this kind of numbers is really hard to follow for me.

the last time i moved my FDL, it would have needed 28 jumps. that is 20-30 minutes. after stripping weapons and scb and boosters i needed 17 jumps, so that's 11 jumps less (8-11 minutes less), 12-17 minutes depending on serverload.

now, i totally understand that jumping up to 30 minutes if you don't want to do it is boring, tedious, no fun, whatever. but that is far from "jumping two hours".

now, what is fun about an FDLs short jumprange? maybe something along those lines of logistics. but if ship transport is introduced i will fly it more often. which isn't a bad thing.

while more jumprange/a bigger FSD would put the FDL in jumprange up to an anaconda, while being faster, needing less fuel per jump etc. - having the same number of internals as a DBE and the same incredible heatmanagement.

 

[Maro-Val]

For me it's about being able to reach systems. I have problems to reach systems in the bubble with my Corvette. Some systems I can't reach, others result in a long detour for a system that is 25 ly away. As a patrol ship that's problematic.
For the same reason the T-9 is a bad trading ship. The jump range is too short for use in regions of the bubble where the systems aren't close together. The T-9 could be used as a in-system trader, but I never found systems where trading without jumping to the next system was profitable. (It would be cool if I could make some credits by hauling food from an agricultural station to an extraction or industrial station within a system).

With all the other ships I used/use I never noticed such problems with the jump-range.

I would be happy if we could make "void-jumps". Hyperspace jumps without a star as the destination. That way ships with a short jump-range could reach systems that are out of range. The jump range for "void-jumps" could be reduced to 50% for safety reasons.

(And maybe explorers could find interesting astronomical stuff - rough planets or maybe cold stelar remnants that could then be used as a jump destination and be obviously extremely valuable but incredible rare - I'm getting off topic.)



While I agree with the idea - use the right ship for the task - I think in the case of the Corvette it's a bit problematic. The Corvette is the most used warship of the Federation. I think it should be able to get everywhere in the bubble without problems and without being carried there by a Farragut. That's the long-range patrol part of the description. If I want to role-play a CMDR working for the Federal Auxiliary Navy, then I want to use the Corvette (and that ship simply looks cool).
It doesn't matter for me if it takes 10 jumps with an Anaconda or 20 jumps with a Corvette. It get's annoying if it takes 60 jumps with the Corvette or if I can't reach the destination at all. (I once had to make 17 jumps to reach a system I could reach with a fully laden Anaconda in 3 jumps)

Maybe Core Dynamics should make a ship like the Anaconda, but with the typical Core Dynamics look (Just a new model for the anaconda OK, that's OT too)

Very well said. Its very easy for some to say that its not a big problem but they have never been in a situation like that to plot a route with a spesific ship (because you want to go with THAT SHIP) and come up with so many detours and numbers like 32 jumps when it should be more like 12 or LESS. It gets frustrating and kinda sad because you have to leave that ship in hangar or spend one hour or more watching loading screens. And on top of that it seems that many people think the cool looking factor is something that should be overlooked. Whats so bad in selecting a ship because it looks nice or badass or just makes you feel nice. I think coolness is a pretty damn important factor.

Solutions or common things said:

Plan ahead and get your ship there the day before.
Answer: No. If they introduce a ship with 8LY jump range you will tell me to go there a week ahead.

Take that ship if dont want to make so many jumps.
Answer: No. I had that ship yesterday. Today i want to go there with THIS SHIP.

If you have been to Sag A then 30 jumps would seem nothing to you.
Answer: When i m out exploring i have time to spend on the travelling factor. As in real life when i m out travelling there is no problem driving 5 hours a day but in my everyday routine driving THATS A BIG PROBLEM.

And many more..

 

[Ziljan]

Yes it should. And so should every other ship. But isn't that what Engineers are for?

 

[Sash KX]

2 hours is an intentional hyperbole, same kind that was used to reason against jump range increase, like "instant gratification", "instant win button", "end game god ship", etc. Still, these trips can take long, over 30 minutes, especially if you run into a streak of unscoopable stars, almost lost my FDL like that once, and my Asp Explorer too, on my trip home from the core. One thing is going to explore for thousands of light years and go sight seeing, another thing is taking your 700mil ship and wanting some action, in which case you are not in the mood for a long trip.

 

[Infidel Deity]

the assumption that out of the bubble you only see one kind of ship (Asp) is at least wrong, when you look at varatis traffic report, before, duribg and after the last CG.

The Distant Worlds project: What ship is the most represented?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

The Distant Worlds project: What ship is the most represented?

Asp and Anacondas of course. Only an idiot would take a sub-par ship like the T-6 on a trip that long.

 

[Infidel Deity]

Every ship should get better jump ranges.
Thus; those who want to go places fast, can do just that.
Those that want to take it slow; ALWAYS have this as an options.

Better jump range on every ship should be a thing that made everybody happy. [yesnod]

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But isn't that what Engineers are for?

And here we have an important point, of course!
The engineers.
I guess jump range is something they will be able to help, those who want it, with.

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Asp

Exactly!

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Exactly!

Your point?

 

[Infidel Deity]

Your point?

That the option of long jumps, is a good option for many.
And it would be good if more ships could jump really far.

 

[andrak]

I see we're back on to this debate again. Yes, the jump range makes the Corvette so annoying to fly that it's not worth it for me currently. While you're at it, upgrade those class 2s to 3s and it then might deserve the price tag and naval rank lock when compared to the Anaconda, which is the better ship in many ways currently.

 

[goemon]

That the option of long jumps, is a good option for many.
And it would be good if more ships could jump really far.

ah, now it is about deep space exploring, not about moving around the bubble?

then please enlighten me, why a python and a t6 are faster at the buckyball races, than a DBE (more jumprange)? maybe it isn't all about jumprange? ;-)

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=168568

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

That the option of long jumps, is a good option for many.
And it would be good if more ships could jump really far.

The option of long jumps is a good option if you go exploring. Sure.
It's not as much of an issue if you are going to go bounty hunting in system.
Different ships with different characteristics for different purposes.

It would be good if the T-6 could defend itself better. So, double the amount and size of it's hardpoints. Right? And the size of shield while we're at it. All without introducing drawbacks to those upgrades. It would make it a viable extra choice for a combat vessel, so that's a good thing.

 

[DragoonKnight]

I see we're back on to this debate again. Yes, the jump range makes the Corvette so annoying to fly that it's not worth it for me currently. While you're at it, upgrade those class 2s to 3s and it then might deserve the price tag and naval rank lock when compared to the Anaconda, which is the better ship in many ways currently.

I would rather see the class 1 upgraded to class 2. Right now they are effectively useless. Cant even use them for missiles because those have awful damage. Cant use them for multicannons because they will just bounce off medium and large hulls and hardly do anything. You can put a pair of tiny pulse lasers on them, but those have the combined effectiveness of a single class 2 against shields.

 

[[DOOK] Droogie]

We definitely need more ships for long range exploration. The DBX needs an extra internal slot to make it a viable long range explorer in horizons. The game also needs more ships in between the Asp Explorer and Anaconda that are good at this role.

I don't like being forced into a ship I don't particularly find enjoyable to fly if I want to do long range exploration simply due to lack of options. I would love to see a ship like the Orca designed for this purpose. We're getting another trading ship, though. They haven't mentioned any plans on adding more exploration ships.

I don't explore simply because I can't stand flying the Asp on planets and I hate the Anaconda in super cruise for extended periods of time. Something in between in the 50-75 million credit range that is agile in super cruise, has good jump range, and doesn't drift like the Asp in regular space would be a welcome addition. It would actually get me into the black. I wouldn't even mind seeing it built as a dedicated exploration vessel instead of a multipurpose.

Simply put, we need more options.

Sorry. This was off topic, but thread isn't even really on topic anymore and it has devolved into only seeing Asps beyond the bubble. Something I agree with.

 

[insanephoton]

The thing with all these 'long range' explorers is that you miss so much. How far do you think you have to go to find an undiscovered system? Not as far as you might think, certainly its significantly less than 1000 ly from Sol. I wouldn't be that surprised if people still found them within 500 ly of Sol