The fallacy of how PvP can protect your system from being undermined.

[[VR] Mad Mike]

If a rank-dependend permission is possible it's a few lines of code to implement a mode-dependend permission. I'm software-engineer ;-)

i think you missunderstand.... no one is saying the devs CANT do it......... we are saying they do not WANT to (or at least DB does not want to) do it.

Sometimes a game, no matter how much we wish it, is not the game we want it to be. My best recent example for me is Star Wars Battlefront. When I 1st heard it was being made I envisioned an amazing single player narrative driven game in the starwars universe, complemented with a MP mode. (the game before that was titanfall, another game ruined by being a crappy pvp generic shooter which could have been great)

Then I found out what it//they was/were..... I could have gone on their forums and demanded they made a game to suite my play style... instead i voted with my wallet.

Not all games are for all people, and if FD do what you want them to do, it would kill the game for many of us. Bait and switch i think would be the phrase. (something some of the offline backers know a thing or 2 about)

 

[Sandmann]

If a rank-dependend permission is possible it's a few lines of code to implement a mode-dependend permission. I'm software-engineer ;-)

I never claimed it wasn't possible. Of course it's possible. Not only is it possible, it's trivial.

I simply reminded you that FDev have stated from day one, very firmly and unwaveringly, that all modes are, and will remain, equal.

(that was an extraordinary number of commas for one short sentence, wasn't it?)

 

[MadMikesch]

Whether or not such a change may be (relatively) simple to implement, it is for Frontier to determine whether such a change is needed in the first place. A fundamental aspect of the game is that each and every player experiences and affects a single shared galaxy state - regardless of game mode or platform - this has been part of the stated game design since the outset of the Kickstarter, over three years ago.

That's no repugnancy. There is one Sol in the Galaxy but it is not reachable without fed.rank. There is one Eravate but it is only reachable in open, because there is a minor-faction connected to a player group.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Thats no repugnancy, There is one Sol in the Galaxy but it is not reachable without fed.rank. There is one Eravate but it is only reachable in open, because there is a minor-faction connected to a player group.

All players can earn the Sol permit if they choose to - in any game mode. What is being proposed is to lock out game content to one game mode out of three.

 

[{SAS}Stalker]

Why?
why is it bad that all modes can effect BGS? Why is having a game which is centred around PvP a good thing, and why is having one centred around multiplayer PvE actions around the BGS a bad thing?

Yes i agree IF the game was open only and somehow magically in 1 giant instance it would be possible for skilled PvP players to have more of an effect and to scare off other "less skilled" from playing in those systems.

But what I do not agree with, and what I have not seen a compelling reason for, is why is it a bad thing?.
PvP can be many things, it can be out and out aggression, or it can be a concerted effort in taking on missions against the ai.... Remember there are NO player factions in Elite dangerous, they are all ai factions.

Its bad mainly because of the divide that it has created within the community. Its bad also because it has dumbed the game down into a arbitrary repetitive, un-quantifiable grind with an unknown start or finish point. I don't consider solo / group to be any safer than open in the current context of BGS because all states are pretty much occupied by people with a shared objective, open pilots are in no danger from solo/group players for example.

There is a picture with a basketball analogy on the other page but its wrong, you don't compete shoulder to shoulder in ED against the environment, for it to be accurate those two players need to be in different buildings, with additional random contributing players with no means to know what you are up against. In that context it becomes so disassociated that the outcome may may as well be randomly generated by the roll of a dice (it may actually be the case, who would know?). We are playing cookie cutter with pretty graphics.

but it isnt YOUR faction (even if the devs put it in with a name you suggested)..... the system the faction is in is not YOUR system.

The game many are asking for may well be a good game, indeed it is a MP model which is done many times, but it isnt THIS game. It is a design feature, and you are free to subjectively not to like it, but it does not make the design wrong.

we are talking systems with millions / billions of people in. The reality of it is modern computers and networking are incapable of really showing that scale in game, indeed you could argue the modes make the game realistic!. me, you everyone individually are a gnats pube in the grand scale of things.

15 people should NOT be able to influence things on a planetary scale. imagine players in solo being the masses of people who you do not get to see because realistically this is accurate, IF ED had 10.000 ships all in supercruise at the same time in a system all going against you, would you be able to influence them or even put a dent in them? This is what ED tries to simulate in the BGS, we just cant see them.
I am probably not wording myself well, and i can only appologise for that hopefully you can work out what i am trying to say (even if you disagree with me, which i am sure you will ...... )

The bold point is wrong in the context of the BGS, YOU CAN effect the BGS with just a few people. The billions and billions of people you speak of are meaningless when considered with the BGS, otherwise you would need billions and billions of CMDR's to move influence and we would all be looking at static numbers on a sheet. Maybe static numbers on a sheet would be a better situation than we have now, the system is so bad a good few people (myself included) who were really really excited about the BGS just ignore it completely now as its meaningless.

 

[Roybe]

Actually PvP doesn't suck at all - I've had some really memorable scraps with other players, they were fun and they were exactly what I was up for in those play sessions.

It just isn't a viable strategy for success in any conflict involving the BGS. That's ok, it can be fun without being that. What's causing all the salt is that folks who are good at PvP are used to excellence in that regard being the highest honor in the games they play. ED has, in many ways, done what the original did - it doesn't fit into any of the usual boxes for today's games. With a little mental readjustment it's quite possible to play effectively in this game - and I know some hardcore PvP players are going to look at "effective" ED play styles and say that's not the game they want to play. But, unfortunately for them, that's ok too.

I have also had fun with PvP, however, this game's implementation of the playstyle is weaksauce.

There are no rewards in game for doing it, it has little effect on the universe, offers no strategic advantage, cannot be used to block/defend/attack, etc.

It is 'just something to do'....with a constant cost of entry to play or be affected by an outcome.

This is what I mean by 'sucks'. This is why the PVP players are in such a state of frustration/anger. PvP is fun to do...but in the scheme of the game it's existence is unnecessary. At best it adds 'color' or a reason to hate someone...and that is all it is there for. A contrivance to allow the 'bad guys' some way to be 'bad guys'.

 

[MadMikesch]

All players can earn the Sol permit if they choose to - in any game mode. What is being proposed is to lock out game content to one game mode out of three.

What content is in Amarak, Eravate, Alrai? These are systems like thousand others. The only different content is in open-mode, because these systems are home-systems of player-groups.
All players can go to Eravate if they choose open.

The players of the player-groups are the people who advertise your game. They stream at twitch, they load up movies to youtube, they organize races, or fighting-leagues (greetings Oogie), they offer communities with forum, chats (like http://www.elitedangerous.de), ... We make the content!!! You just deliver the nice looking stage. Not working missions, terrible instances, dissapearing stations and many more bugs are not the content, that keeps a player 17 month playing your game.

 

[Robert Maynard]

What content is in Amarak, Eravate, Alrai? These are systems like thousand others. The only different content is in open-mode, because these systems are home-systems of player-groups.
All players can go to Eravate if they choose open.

The players of the player-groups are the people who advertise your game. They stream at twitch, they load up movies to youtube, they organize races, or fighting-leagues (greetings Oogie), they offer communities with forum, chats (like http://www.elitedangerous.de), ... We make the content!!!

Players in any game mode can choose to go wherever they please (unless restricted by permit). Player sponsored Minor Factions cannot be placed in systems with permits - according to the latest guidance from Zac. Minor Factions (whether player sponsored or not) are part of the BGS and are not under the direct control of any player.

Players creating videos and streams are not restricted to Open play - these can be created in any game mode (indeed, with recent stream sniping incidents, the advice from Frontier would seem to be "don't stream in Open unless you are prepared to be interrupted").

 

[sewerratuk]

What content is in Amarak, Eravate, Alrai? These are systems like thousand others. The only different content is in open-mode, because these systems are home-systems of player-groups.
All players can go to Eravate if they choose open.

The players of the player-groups are the people who advertise your game. They stream at twitch, they load up movies to youtube, they organize races, or fighting-leagues (greetings Oogie), they offer communities with forum, chats (like http://www.elitedangerous.de), ... We make the content!!! You just deliver the nice looking stage. Not working missions, terrible instances, dissapearing stations and many more bugs are not the content, that keeps a player 17 month playing your game.

So what you are asking for is what you dislike about PvEer's. I.e. protection and safety in your own choice of mode

 

[MadMikesch]

Players creating videos and streams are not restricted to Open play - these can be created in any game mode (indeed, with recent stream sniping incidents, the advice from Frontier would seem to be "don't stream in Open unless you are prepared to be interrupted").

Nobody is interested in streams where somebody is killing stupidly turning NPCs or shooting at asteroids for collecting some materials in solo-mode.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Nobody is interested in streams where somebody is killing stupidly turning NPCs or shooting at asteroids for collecting some materials in solo-mode.

Plenty of scope for multi-player content in Private Groups - for invited guests only, of course.

 

[MadMikesch]

So what you are asking for is what you dislike about PvEer's. I.e. protection and safety in your own choice of mode

No, I will see the person who pukes on my carpet. And it must be a risk for the person who wants to do it. I will have a chance to fight them.

 

[Asp Explorer]

Nobody is interested in streams where somebody is killing stupidly turning NPCs or shooting at asteroids for collecting some materials in solo-mode.

So what makes an interesting stream? I might find NPC combat streams in Solo interesting, as I can't remember the last time I fought an NPC.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

Plenty of scope for multi-player content in Private Groups - for invited guests only, of course.

I enjoyed the official streams about exploring and PP and can't wait for the video about the BGS - all done in solo mode if I understand it correctly.

I really feel sorry for Ed - flying all the way to Beagle Point just to get killed by somebody seeking attention. No it hasn't happened - yet. I hope it doesn't happen, but I don't have much faith in the "community".

 

[Robert Maynard]

No, I will see the person who pukes on my carpet. And it must be a risk for the person who wants to do it. I will have a chance to fight them.

Not definitely though. Even if all participants are in Open, there are a number of reasons why some of those players may not be visible to others - whether due to poor quality P2P connections between individual players, poor instance "health" not allowing additional players to be added, playing on a different game platform (XB1 at the moment, PS4 expected at some point), playing at a different time of day....

 

[DaveB]

I have also had fun with PvP, however, this game's implementation of the playstyle is weaksauce.

There are no rewards in game for doing it, it has little effect on the universe, offers no strategic advantage, cannot be used to block/defend/attack, etc.

It is 'just something to do'....with a constant cost of entry to play or be affected by an outcome.

This is what I mean by 'sucks'. This is why the PVP players are in such a state of frustration/anger. PvP is fun to do...but in the scheme of the game it's existence is unnecessary. At best it adds 'color' or a reason to hate someone...and that is all it is there for. A contrivance to allow the 'bad guys' some way to be 'bad guys'.

Pretty much everything in a game is just "something to do", though. If you have fun doing it, then do it. If the game has mechanics to stroke your ego for being good at it, that's just gravy. The "problem" only exists because the hardcore PvP community has been conditioned by other games to expect that ego-stroking from being good at PvP. What they are basically griping about is that ED doesn't do that. Rather than just having fun with the PvP that they've got, they want the game changed so that they can "display their dimensions" and claim that the "best PvPer" is the "best player", as if this was a PvP-centered game which it's not, was never intended to be and probably never will be.

 

[MadMikesch]

What content is in Amarak, Eravate, Alrai? These are systems like thousand others. The only different content is in open-mode, because these systems are home-systems of player-groups.
All players can go to Eravate if they choose open.

The players of the player-groups are the people who advertise your game. They stream at twitch, they load up movies to youtube, they organize races, or fighting-leagues (greetings Oogie), they offer communities with forum, chats (like http://www.elitedangerous.de), ... We make the content!!! You just deliver the nice looking stage. Not working missions, terrible instances, dissapearing stations and many more bugs are not the content, that keeps a player 17 month playing your game.

Just qoute my self. Because my last edit seems to be overlooked.

 

[CMDR John Casey]

But the entire point of the OP is to demonstrate that even wholly within an open only environment, PVP alone will NEVER stop a system being flipped, so giving more weight to open is entirely irrelavent to this thread.

But at the end he admits that at its best it would slow down the process. So I'm confused - he's saying that PvP in open cannot affect the enemy actions, or that PvP in open can affect the enemy actions?

 

[Asp Explorer]

An interesting take on the "best player" idea - someone who has flipped more stations than every PvP group that exists, having never encountered another player, or even fired a shot at an NPC.

That takes some real skill and dedication. I wonder if such a player exists?

 

[MadMikesch]

Not definitely though. Even if all participants are in Open, there are a number of reasons why some of those players may not be visible to others - whether due to poor quality P2P connections between individual players, poor instance "health" not allowing additional players to be added, playing on a different game platform (XB1 at the moment, PS4 expected at some point), playing at a different time of day....

I know that. I play that game since 17 month in open. But for many players it is enough deterrence to have the chance to meet somebody.