Why PVP is Dead or Dying. PVE is now KING!

[DaveB]

...worse still we tend to get lumped together on the forums

Never by me. I've never met a pirate I didn't like (at least after I got past the "swearing at the loss" stage) PKers are totally different and about as welcome in my instances as a skunk under my deck...

 

[Derath]

Never by me. I've never met a pirate I didn't like (at least after I got past the "swearing at the loss" stage) PKers are totally different and about as welcome in my instances as a skunk under my deck...

Then thankyou for being that way Its always cheesed me off a bit as despite being one of the games most prolific pirates at release I killed less traders than anyone who accidentally rammed one to death in the many incidents at the start of the game lol

Plenty of the forum goers know the difference luckily, but lots don't too

 

[GluttonyFang]

*Cough high wake Cough*


*Cough Combat logging Cough*


*Cough No one ever dies with HRP unless they want to Cough*

I wish you were wrong Majin... I wish you were wrong...

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Which begs the question - why don't the pirates band together to deal with the PKing element that is bad for business?

Majin pretty much nails it, this is a game that makes killing difficult even when people get outnumbered and cornered.

 

[Majinvash]

But if the PKers are high waking and combat logging to get away from you pirates, doesn't that mean they are NOT eating your food and annoying your prey so much that they cease playing in open? Double win, you get some fun fights and get to send some other pilot feeling his oats running with his tail between his legs, you also reduce his impact on the traders which means more targets for you to feed on.

Because of the HUGE difference now between a normal ship and pure PVP fit ship, means we either pirate or PVP. Its the biggest gap it has ever been. ( being discussed in a number of other threads )

Just in case you missed it

[video=youtube;n2o2VXP7uQ8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2o2VXP7uQ8[/video]

Before it was still a challenge but was doable. Pirating in a shield-less HRP rail FDL/FAS isn't really doable.

Triadius can give you some great stories of trying to disrupt our piracy.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

 

[Robert Maynard]

*Cough high wake Cough*

By design - otherwise some ships would always be sitting ducks.

*Cough Combat logging Cough*

An undesirable exploit - reportable. Sadly, there seems to be too little visibility of numbers of players sanctioned for doing it.

*Cough No one ever dies with HRP unless they want to Cough*

The difficulty would seem to be that every module that could benefit traders to harden their vessel to sustain attack for long enough for them to escape will go through the meta-mill and end up in the latest flavour-of-the-month PvP build.

 

[frostypaw]

Everyone looking to the past is great. Looking to the future is scary, I understand that.

Lets hope FD never changes anything and this game thrives on its merits and nothing else comes out to take any of the current open market share of space games.

Lumping a patronising phrase in with a stupid presumption doesn't make it any more valid.

I don't think anyone is suggesting the game is perfect as is - if you're going to try and make an argument that stands up then put 2pence of effort into it.

Have you even looked at NMS/SC? They're totally different games.

Sitting there pontificating and awarding yourself titles then telling FDev and everyone else that the sky is going to fall if they don't listen to the Voice Of Self Importance isn't the way to the future.

GF has the right ideas, but it seems none of these pirate bad boys can stand up to the PKers (good to have a term for them)

 

[Derath]

The difficulty would seem to be that every module that could benefit traders to harden their vessel to sustain attack for long enough for them to escape will go through the meta-mill and end up in the latest flavour-of-the-month PvP build.

thats probably true, but they could always you know, not make the trader ships terrible instead of relying on modules to fix them. Its like your comment about some ships being sitting ducks, T6/7/9 and Keelback are sitting ducks with high wake lol >< I struggle not to blow one up when im killing the powerplant they are so fragile.

 

[Majinvash]

By design - otherwise some ships would always be sitting ducks.



An undesirable exploit - reportable. Sadly, there seems to be too little visibility of numbers of players sanctioned for doing it.



The difficulty would seem to be that every module that could benefit traders to harden their vessel to sustain attack for long enough for them to escape will go through the meta-mill and end up in the latest flavour-of-the-month PvP build.

Thanks again for breaking down a statement into sections and telling us what we already know, except on the last one where a trader would never use HRP over shields or cargo space. ( Sure go find me one that has, i know there must be one you have somewhere )

HRP was designed if I remember rightly for players to be able to stay around slightly longer after their shields dropped before having to use the Braben Freedom drive. ( Intended or not, this stops anyone stopping player killers )


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Lumping a patronising phrase in with a stupid presumption doesn't make it any more valid.

I don't think anyone is suggesting the game is perfect as is - if you're going to try and make an argument that stands up then put 2pence of effort into it.

Have you even looked at NMS/SC? They're totally different games.

Sitting there pontificating and awarding yourself titles then telling FDev and everyone else that the sky is going to fall if they don't listen to the Voice Of Self Importance isn't the way to the future.

GF has the right ideas, but it seems none of these pirate bad boys can stand up to the PKers (good to have a term for them)

Thanks... erm..... most of the PK'er..... were pirates....

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

 

[Derath]

GF has the right ideas, but it seems none of these pirate bad boys can stand up to the PKers (good to have a term for them)

The game is absent of consequences, its not like a PK'er would ever destroy me either Its just wasting a pirates time is enough to stop it being worthwhile (which it barely is anyway ). The two groups either crossover when pirates get fed up, or they just avoid each other anyway and the PK'ers go back to destroying random traders.

Its quite simply like this

Your the best pilot in the game, flying the best ship in the game, can you stop a Pk'er who knows the games systems?

No.

There really isn't anything to add to it lol it has nothing to do with standing up to them its just a waste of time.

 

[DaveB]

Seems to me that perhaps the best thing FD could do to enable piracy is to pounce on every PvP meta-build and nerf the heck out of it, not to defend the traders but to keep "piracy" as the premier way to PvP.

Piracy as a career really needs some serious love from FD because right now the pirate is going to be poor, flying a ship that will lose to a dedicated PvP build, getting really slim pickings from the other pilots they encounter. That sucks and takes away from the game because pirates are a part of the ED ecosystem and should be able to survive. I'm a trader/bounty-hunter and I love pirates.. they make trading interesting and occasionally (VERY occasionally) give me a nice payout as I convert them to a cloud of glowing plasma...

But with how it is right now, there is NOTHING to disadvantage the gratuitous PKer when compared to the dedicated pirate.

 

[GluttonyFang]

GF has the right ideas, but it seems none of these pirate bad boys can stand up to the PKers (good to have a term for them)

It's not that we can't stand up to the Pkers, it's that if we want to stand up to the Pkers, we have to abandon piracy for the time being and most likely fail in our endeavor because of high-wake, combat log, and meta builds that are design in a way that unless one wishes to be killed, one cannot die.

 

[Majinvash]

Seems to me that perhaps the best thing FD could do to enable piracy is to pounce on every PvP meta-build and nerf the heck out of it, not to defend the traders but to keep "piracy" as the premier way to PvP.

Piracy as a career really needs some serious love from FD because right now the pirate is going to be poor, flying a ship that will lose to a dedicated PvP build, getting really slim pickings from the other pilots they encounter. That sucks and takes away from the game because pirates are a part of the ED ecosystem and should be able to survive. I'm a trader/bounty-hunter and I love pirates.. they make trading interesting and occasionally (VERY occasionally) give me a nice payout as I convert them to a cloud of glowing plasma...

But with how it is right now, there is NOTHING to disadvantage the gratuitous PKer when compared to the dedicated pirate.

Then entire eco system is broken even for rare and meaningful encounters.

Traders trade
Pirates hunt traders
Bounty hunters hunt pirates
Traders go back to trading because pirates are being chased off

Its so simple a concept but FD have failed to produce this. ( Another threads has been done to death about ways to produce this, not going down that rabbit hole. Its 24mins till home time )

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

 

[frostypaw]

It's not that we can't stand up to the Pkers, it's that if we want to stand up to the Pkers, we have to abandon piracy for the time being and most likely fail in our endeavor because of high-wake, combat log, and meta builds that are design in a way that unless one wishes to be killed, one cannot die.

As long as the focus is on this - the problem - not on forcing every single player to join in the gankfest that parts of open are - I'm pretty happy. The people in private/solo are a symptom, not the disease.

I'm hoping the new weapon mods can balance so as to nerf these builds - that heat build up weapon could really ruin the hull tanks - but we'll see.

 

[Majinvash]

As long as the focus is on this - the problem - not on forcing every single player to join in the gankfest that parts of open are - I'm pretty happy. The people in private/solo are a symptom, not the disease.

I'm hoping the new weapon mods can balance so as to nerf these builds - that heat build up weapon could really ruin the hull tanks - but we'll see.

*Cough high wake Cough*

I really need to get that checked out

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

 

[Layne Vakarian]

So how about this...
Pirates need a 'piracy module'. Which, natch, will come with ratings and ranges and like that. Said module will be fired (at the appropriate range), and if successful puts the 'pirated' player's FSD out of action. So no waking of any sort. Time-to-FSD-reboot will depend on piracy-module class/rating, but better (from a pirate's point of view) than the interdicted FSD cooldown we have now.

Unwanted or random PvP: Massive persistent Asset-stripping. Forget suicide to clear bounties. No-consequence PvP: just turn off 'report crimes against me'. As many others have said: true, some people want to RP the role of wanton psycho. What annoys/upsets/irritates/something stronger, people is the completely un-real-world situation where such people are able to do so with virtually no consequence. So let's have a meaningful consequence for them, and let the rest of us get on with it. I play mostly solo. I would definitely, definitely play open, if only for the additional excitement of potential piracy if the consequence-meta could be properly balanced.

Oh, and I'd never willingly engage in PvP (other than pre-arranged low-value, fixed loadout matches with friends) for the simple reason that I am useless at it. And to those who glibly reply 'get good': yeah, but there's always someone better and I didn't come here for a competitive experience.

Cheers.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Thanks again for breaking down a statement into sections and telling us what we already know, except on the last one where a trader would never use HRP over shields or cargo space. ( Sure go find me one that has, i know there must be one you have somewhere )

No problem - there seemed to be a need to repeat it.

Not sure - silent running smuggler, maybe?

HRP was designed if I remember rightly for players to be able to stay around slightly longer after their shields dropped before having to use the Braben Freedom drive. ( Intended or not, this stops anyone stopping player killers )

AAs I said elsewhere, any module produced that might harden trade ships will go through the meta-mill.

Thanks... erm..... most of the PK'er..... were pirates....

Then it would seem that the PKing problem is down to the pirates themselves - and serves to drive off "prey".

 

[Robert Maynard]

It's not that we can't stand up to the Pkers, it's that if we want to stand up to the Pkers, we have to abandon piracy for the time being and most likely fail in our endeavor because of high-wake, combat log, and meta builds that are design in a way that unless one wishes to be killed, one cannot die.

Exactly the same for the traders who might don a combat ship to attempt to deal with the problem....

 

[Robert Maynard]

Then entire eco system is broken even for rare and meaningful encounters.

Traders trade
Pirates hunt traders
Bounty hunters hunt pirates
Traders go back to trading because pirates are being chased off

Its so simple a concept but FD have failed to produce this. ( Another threads has been done to death about ways to produce this, not going down that rabbit hole. Its 24mins till home time )

An eco-system would imply a natural balance, i.e.:

Too many predators = too much predation = not enough prey to sustain the predators;

Predators kill to eat (in general, I know that there are a few exceptions), not for sport.

When a predator dies, it's dead.

This is a game where any player can choose any role - regardless of the relative populations of each role - and is immortal. Nothing any super-predators can do will provide more than a momentary pause in the predation.

If every trader moves to S/PG to avoid player piracy - that would seem to suggest that the eco-system in this game is balanced around what players are prepared to endure rather than what other players choose to do to them.

 

[Robert Maynard]

So how about this...
Pirates need a 'piracy module'. Which, natch, will come with ratings and ranges and like that. Said module will be fired (at the appropriate range), and if successful puts the 'pirated' player's FSD out of action. So no waking of any sort. Time-to-FSD-reboot will depend on piracy-module class/rating, but better (from a pirate's point of view) than the interdicted FSD cooldown we have now.

A PKers dream ancillary weapon - giving them more time to toy with their prey before destroying it.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Exactly the same for the traders who might don a combat ship to attempt to deal with the problem....

The funny thing is Pkers are getting exactly what they want if we do that.