Warning: AI does not break in head-on passes, even when it is suicidal not to break.

[Rankaze]

This is not a complaint thread, just a warning to my fellow combat pilots about behavior I have observed.

In head-on firing passes in combat, the AI does not break off. Ever. Even when not breaking off is suicide. (Caveat: I don't know if this is true for small AI ships, but it is true for large ones).

I first observed this behavior when I (in my Fer-de-Lance) was interdicted by a Master Python while on a delivery mission. It was a very tough fight, but I was winning - I was at about 60% hull and had a ring and a half of shields up, the Python was at roughly 30% hull and had no shields. We went into a head-on pass in which I reduced the Python's hull to about 20% and I lost half a ring of shields. I attempted to break off the pass, but apparently too late - the AI either did not break or actively turned into my break - I'm not sure which - and collided with me... destroying both of us.

After this, I went into a High Intensity RES for a while and watched the AI fight the AI to see if this behavior was common. As it turns out, it's not merely common, it's universal. Time and time again I watched pirate and security Anacondas boost headlong into each other, the collisions destroying one and sometimes both ships.

It would appear that the AI in large ships has no programmed aversion to collisions which might destroy its own ship. Again, this is not a complaint (I do think that's a flaw in the AI, but it might actually be a flaw to a Commander's advantage if he knows about it), just an observation of something to be cautious of. Don't enter into head-on firing passes with the AI unless you're sure you can survive the collision, because the AI will make no attempt to avoid it and may actively seek it, even at the price of its own destruction.

 

[babelfisch]

Or it could be a valid combat tactic...

 

[CMDR Dumbfries]

Or it's another bug in a long list of many...
The lengths people go to defending this garbage is amazing.

 

[bossbrigand]

I've had them evade and I've had them not evade. Sometimes they'll play chicken and sometimes they'll lose. Such is life.

 

[Wigean]

I lost my Python when I was rammed by another Python. I lost my shields instantly and hull down to 23%. NPC only showed weakened shield. I turned to fight, but was hit by something and that was that.
Not funny any more. FD must sort this out asap. Most of us will end up in Sidewinders if this continues.

 

[Mostly Hamless]

Or it could be a valid combat tactic...

Not sure you win many wars through suicide. Especially when you are only fighting for yourself.

 

[bossbrigand]

I lost my Python when I was rammed by another Python. I lost my shields instantly and hull down to 23%. NPC only showed weakened shield. I turned to fight, but was hit by something and that was that.
Not funny any more. FD must sort this out asap. Most of us will end up in Sidewinders if this continues.

Sounds like you lost a fight? Ramming is a perfectly valid tactic for warships. Don't engage other Pythons in combat if you aren't confident you can handle ships that size.

 

[Rankaze]

Or it could be a valid combat tactic...

Um, no, ramming someone when it will destroy YOU is not a valid combat tactic.

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Sounds like you lost a fight? Ramming is a perfectly valid tactic for warships. Don't engage other Pythons in combat if you aren't confident you can handle ships that size.

Once again, the thing that made it a flaw in the AI is that the Python was also destroyed.

What I'm pointing out is that the AI doesn't break when a reasonable human would break and that pilots need to be aware of it. That's all.

EDIT: Why the @#$@ does everyone assume that when I am trying to warn someone else against making the combat mistake I made (assuming the AI would not ram when it's suicidal to ram) that I am here to complain about it? Fine. I will never attempt to help anyone on the forums again.

 

[bossbrigand]

Um, no, ramming someone when it will destroy YOU is not a valid combat tactic.

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Once again, the thing that made it a flaw in the AI is that the Python was also destroyed.

What I'm pointing out is that the AI doesn't break when a reasonable human would break and that pilots need to be aware of it. That's all.

I don't think the Python in his case was destroyed or at least if it was he didn't mention it, he was just complaining about having been hit. In your case the AI played chicken to make you break off so he could get behind you. Sometimes they chicken out and break, sometimes they stubbornly keep their course, hope you'll break off, and become interstellar pancakes if you don't.

 

[Vincent Starson]

Being rammed by AI isn't fun or very sportsmanlike. You can hand-wave it away as valid tactics in war and whatever but doesn't change the fact it's annoying.

The amount of damage you take from ramming has been adjusted many times since launch. Clippers still seem to ram better than they should. It would be best if the AI was more fun to play with, and thus less rammy. But that's just like, my opinion man.

 

[Rankaze]

I don't think the Python in his case was destroyed or at least if it was he didn't mention it, he was just complaining about having been hit. In your case the AI played chicken to make you break off so he could get behind you. Sometimes they chicken out and break, sometimes they stubbornly keep their course, hope you'll break off, and become interstellar pancakes if you don't.

That's a pretty foolish approach for a pirate, don't you think? I mean, most pirates are in it for the profit and have a better grasp of risk/reward than that.

This is what I'm getting at - I was just trying to warn other players that, hey, the AI seems to have a very low regard for its own survival when it comes to collisions and that they should be aware of it so they don't get themselves killed. That's all.

 

[Altair8800]

Destroying you together with them is a good tactic, why should you get away if it looks like you are winning? Commanders would do that too as a last resort.

Just had it with my Python against FAS mission NPC's, got their weak shields down quick and they turned in the last moment, because I won't break as long as I got shields and them not, tee hee.

So looks like they finally are somewhat situation aware.

 

[bossbrigand]

Being rammed by AI isn't fun or very sportsmanlike. You can hand-wave it away as valid tactics in war and whatever but doesn't change the fact it's annoying.

The amount of damage you take from ramming has been adjusted many times since launch. Clippers still seem to ram better than they should. It would be best if the AI was more fun to play with, and thus less rammy. But that's just like, my opinion man.

Clippers are good at ramming because they're rather heavy for their size and speed. 800 tons at 430 m/s hits like - well, 800 tons of bricks.

That's a pretty foolish approach for a pirate, don't you think? I mean, most pirates are in it for the profit and have a better grasp of risk/reward than that.

This is what I'm getting at - I was just trying to warn other players that, hey, the AI seems to have a very low regard for its own survival when it comes to collisions and that they should be aware of it so they don't get themselves killed. That's all.

A lot of "pirates" prefer to kill indiscriminately and scoop up whatever's left. This holds true for NPCs and players alike. And again, I'm not sure if a head on collision is as much a ramming attempt as it is playing chicken so they can get behind you when you break off.

I'm not criticizing you or saying you're dumb or anything, only that my experiences have differed. It may be that large ships break less when going against smaller ships, but when I'm in my Clipper they usually try to get out of my way at the last moment.

 

[Rankaze]

Destroying you together with them is a good tactic, why should you get away if it looks like you are winning? Commanders would do that too as a last resort.

Just had it with my Python against FAS mission NPC's, got their weak shields down quick and they turned in the last moment, because I won't break as long as I got shields and them not, tee hee.

So looks like they finally are somewhat situation aware.

Only people who are fighting desperately for a cause do things like that. Otherwise, generally people prefer to try to survive.

Or people who know they are playing a game... they do things like that because in games, death is cheap.

Personally, I expected more verisimilitude than that, and thus made a tactical error of false assumption. I'm trying to keep other people from making that same error. I didn't start this thread for debate of whether it's valid behavior by the AI. I didn't start this thread trying to get the AI behavior changed. I started this thread to warn other players like me that they shouldn't have that expectation so that they don't make the same mistake I did.

That. Is. All.

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Clippers are good at ramming because they're rather heavy for their size and speed. 800 tons at 430 m/s hits like - well, 800 tons of bricks.



A lot of "pirates" prefer to kill indiscriminately and scoop up whatever's left. This holds true for NPCs and players alike. And again, I'm not sure if a head on collision is as much a ramming attempt as it is playing chicken so they can get behind you when you break off.

I'm not criticizing you or saying you're dumb or anything, only that my experiences have differed. It may be that large ships break less when going against smaller ships, but when I'm in my Clipper they usually try to get out of my way at the last moment.

I have watched AI security Anacondas and AI pirate Anacondas fire their boosters and charge headlong at each other, repeatedly, at a range of less than 1 kilometer, until one or both is destroyed. You would think that once one of them starts taking serious hull damage, that they would consider some other tactic?

At least, I would have expected them to. I no longer have any such expectation.

 

[Brian of Ardagh]

Destroying you together with them is a good tactic, why should you get away if it looks like you are winning? Commanders would do that too as a last resort.

Just had it with my Python against FAS mission NPC's, got their weak shields down quick and they turned in the last moment, because I won't break as long as I got shields and them not, tee hee.

So looks like they finally are somewhat situation aware.

It's an excellent tactic for an NPC since they never have to see an insurance screen, buy their ship in the first place or grind for engineer mods.

This is what some people mean by the NPC's cheating. They don't have to play by the same rules as humans, they don't worry about losing their ships because there are no consequences to losing.

 

[Cheops1975]

It also happens in perma pitch battles. If they are a bit more agile than you it usually ends in a ram. If you are really slow in pitching.. it will also quite often end in a ram. Ramming seems to be the end result of a lot of these battles since the AI seems programmed to face you at all times.. even when it is to it's detriment.

 

[Colonel Kenney]

Almost seems to me like they ram you on purpose when they are losing.

 

[babelfisch]

Not sure you win many wars through suicide. Especially when you are only fighting for yourself.

Um, no, ramming someone when it will destroy YOU is not a valid combat tactic.

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Once again, the thing that made it a flaw in the AI is that the Python was also destroyed.

What I'm pointing out is that the AI doesn't break when a reasonable human would break and that pilots need to be aware of it. That's all.

EDIT: Why the @#$@ does everyone assume that when I am trying to warn someone else against making the combat mistake I made (assuming the AI would not ram when it's suicidal to ram) that I am here to complain about it? Fine. I will never attempt to help anyone on the forums again.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamikaze

QED. I wasn't entirely serious with my first comment, but now I'll have a new agenda.

 

[Brian of Ardagh]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamikaze

QED. I wasn't entirely serious with my first comment, but now I'll have a new agenda.

Kamikaze tactics were used against warships and were not used in aircraft to aircraft dogfights. They make sense as a desperation tactic back when you didn't have cruise missiles.

[...]were suicide attacks by military aviators from the Empire of Japan against Allied naval vessels [...], designed to destroy warships more effectively than was possible with conventional attacks.

During World War II, about 3,860 kamikaze pilots died, and about 19% of kamikaze attacks managed to hit a ship.

It's a stupid tactic in real life for pilot to pilot dogfighting. As I mentioned earlier though NPCs don't care about the cost of destroying their own spacecraft. The NPCs can act as if they are 5 year olds with Daddy's remote controlled ship.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

Not sure you win many wars through suicide. Especially when you are only fighting for yourself.

Are you gonna let the NPC live? If not trying to take you with him is not that a unusal thing to try.