News NPC AI update

[oranginam]

Happy CMDRs are too busy actually playing than to post.

That's the problem. everyone has no time to be too busy to play.

Do not get me wrong, I do not intend to give more importance than everything, I passed the age to make me head for a game but make an update and Nothing on IA or no communication on that, i call this "frontier is deaf".
I do not insult the developers as and their works, but i think this is an error of communication.
I continue to think, for player like me who only played in single mode, that integrating a choice of difficulty level would be the best solution for everyone. Or, why not, make an offline mode with the choice.

Sorry for my poor English.
Later.

 

[Tezcatlipoca]

Can someone from FD clarify/confirm a couple of things, please?

- Are weapons that cause impulse and thermal attacks modded weapons, or are they just new? If they're via mods, then I'm afraid the server-side update to remove mods from NPCs didn't work properly for Xbox One, as the Xbox version has had - and still has - NPCs using those attacks since 1.6. If they're just new, but normal, then fair enough!

- Have Engineer mods been re-introduced to NPCs, even if "just" a select few to high ranking NPCs? Frontier Help on Twitter said they *have*, which seems surprising to me as surely that would/should have been announced? (Especially as it would surely be a bit too soon since the PC update that removed the bugged superweapons, and definitely way too soon since *yesterday's* Xbox update, given that this thread's OP said: "Once this bug fix goes live we’ll be able to see how the AI is performing and then, over time, should we feel that the balancing is right to introduce a very select few high end engineers weapons to the highest ranked NPCs we will investigate that option. However, that won’t be immediately as we want to ensure that the balance is just right"...)

 

[Rojo Habe]

Are weapons that cause impulse and thermal attacks modded weapons, or are they just new? If they're via mods, then I'm afraid the server-side update to remove mods from NPCs didn't work properly for Xbox One, as the Xbox version has had - and still has - NPCs using those attacks since 1.6. If they're just new, but normal, then fair enough!

I wondered the same thing, but it turns out no, it doesn't signify an engineer-modded weapon. It's just the warning that's new.

 

[4gui4]

all I know is it's all combat, always the damn fight, damn npcs

 

[Tezcatlipoca]

I wondered the same thing, but it turns out no, it doesn't signify an engineer-modded weapon. It's just the warning that's new.

Agh, if that's the case then fair enough

I had worried it meant the NPCs still had mods, and I've seen other people with the same concern.

Still like confirmation from FD about the mod issue, though, given what FD Support said on Twitter. I'm hoping that the Twitter guys are mistaken.

 

[Manticore]

Put all the enhanced AI in open and leave the other groups to those who either don't want combat or are,like myself, not very good at it

Fair comment.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Fair comment.

No that wouldn't be fair. There are plenty that play solo but like the AI to be a challenge and not a walkover.

 

[Insomnia]

Fair comment.

It's not a fair comment.... Solo mode isn't easy mode. NPCs are programmed to mimic humans. The new AI has done just that. I applaud FD.

 

[4gui4]

No that wouldn't be fair. There are plenty that play solo but like the AI to be a challenge and not a walkover.

Why IA needs to be a challenge all the time?
If you play 1 hour a week it should be great, two fights and until next week.
If you play 20 hour per week this is boring, inconvenient, doesn't let you do anything. It must be fair?

 

[lecorsobreton]

NPCs are programmed to mimic humans. The new AI has done just that. I applaud FD.

No, they are not playing by the same rules. They don't overheat, have a unlimited ammo etc. If they had the same limitations we do, I wouldn't mind, I would actually welcome that. I have adjusted to the upped difficulty mostly by changing my load-out and trying to not bite more than I can chew but they still blatantly cheat the rules. Giving an unfair advantage (and I'm not talking about bugs) is not the way to up the difficulty. FD is going in the right direction, I have a new-found respect for some ship classes (gunships, FDL and anacondas), but they are not there just yet.

But I still believe a FDL (my ship) shouldn't have too much difficulty dispatching a wing of 3 consisting of an hauler and two eagles, even if they are dangerous/elites. I mean, between the three of them they have 5 small hardpoints... I have 4 med and 1 huge and they somehow manage to out dps me because they can keep shooting their railguns and what not without any consequences. And I do manage pips (or is it peeps?)

It's a bit out of topic, but the best "realistic difficulty" I played was the first Deus Ex. You could kill, and be killed, in one shot, cripple or be crippled. By the end of the game, you would be much more powerful and would only need to be careful against more powerful foes, but common mobs were cannon fodder, which was satisfying.

 

[Insomnia]

No, they are not playing by the same rules. They don't overheat, have a unlimited ammo etc. If they had the same limitations we do, I wouldn't mind, I would actually welcome that. I have adjusted to the upped difficulty mostly by changing my load-out and trying to not bite more than I can chew but they still blatantly cheat the rules. Giving an unfair advantage (and I'm not talking about bugs) is not the way to up the difficulty. FD is going in the right direction, I have a new-found respect for some ship classes (gunships, FDL and anacondas), but they are not there just yet.

But I still believe a FDL (my ship) shouldn't have too much difficulty dispatching a wing of 3 consisting of an hauler and two eagles, even if they are dangerous/elites. I mean, between the three of them they have 5 small hardpoints... I have 4 med and 1 huge and they somehow manage to out dps me because they can keep shooting their railguns and what not without any consequences. And I do manage pips (or is it peeps?)

It's a bit out of topic, but the best "realistic difficulty" I played was the first Deus Ex. You could kill, and be killed, in one shot, cripple or be crippled. By the end of the game, you would be much more powerful and would only need to be careful against more powerful foes, but common mobs were cannon fodder, which was satisfying.

Is that even confirmed? Or are your facts based on emotions and guesses? I know that the AI are controlled by the same rules that we have like pips and stuff. FD said so themselves. If the AI doesn't overheat or have unlimited ammo then it needs to be addressed obviously. Rail guns are one of the best weapons ingame, and if they can use it, so can you.

 

[Insomnia]

Why IA needs to be a challenge all the time?
If you play 1 hour a week it should be great, two fights and until next week.
If you play 20 hour per week this is boring, inconvenient, doesn't let you do anything. It must be fair?

AI needs to be challenging because of...well the challenge. Imagine AI to be completely challengeless. How fun would that be in the end?

 

[lecorsobreton]

Is that even confirmed? Or are your facts based on emotions and guesses? I know that the AI are controlled by the same rules that we have like pips and stuff. FD said so themselves. If the AI doesn't overheat or have unlimited ammo then it needs to be addressed obviously. Rail guns are one of the best weapons ingame, and if they can use it, so can you.

I can't confirm per se, but fit a hauler / eagle and try to act like the AI, you'll see it's not really feasible. I did fit an eagle with the best I could (the        cost me almost 2m) as I didn't want to risk my FDL and I was not impressed. When I see bigger ships shaffing, shield boosting and firing at the same time, I just feel there's something funky going on.

 

[Miklos Atreides]

AI needs to be challenging because of...well the challenge. Imagine AI to be completely challengeless. How fun would that be in the end?

The core question is: Who's challange? What is lame to you can be absolutely challanging for me.
So your statement is not arguing anything because challange is relative.

Regards,
Miklos

 

[Insomnia]

The core question is: Who's challange? What is lame to you can be absolutely challanging for me.
So your statement is not arguing anything because challange is relative.

Regards,
Miklos

Agreed. But no one can argue that the AI pre 2.1 was challenging. I buy the argument that the AI needs to be dialed down with lower ranks NPCs but that's it.

 

[Temberwolf]

I really enjoyed the game before the 2.1 update, about the right challenge for me. I do like some of the improvements, the clock is nice. The AI, however, is another story. It made the game unenjoyable for me and the few people I play with. I think there should be a selection box in solo and private group for regular or elite play mode, so the fellers that enjoy the harder challenge can have it, and those of us that do not, don't have to suffer through it, as I am never going to GET GUD. The AI does not make mistakes, I do. Just my 2cents.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I really enjoyed the game before the 2.1 update, about the right challenge for me. I do like some of the improvements, the clock is nice. The AI, however, is another story. It made the game unenjoyable for me and the few people I play with. I think there should be a selection box in solo and private group for regular or elite play mode, so the fellers that enjoy the harder challenge can have it, and those of us that do not, don't have to suffer through it, as I am never going to GET GUD. The AI does not make mistakes, I do. Just my 2cents.

I am only expert in combat, but even I can say the AI had zero challenge pre 2.1. Most of the time the ships wouldn't even fire at you and just to sit there spinning, how is that a challenge?

 

[careBear1]

The core question is: Who's challange? What is lame to you can be absolutely challanging for me. So your statement is not arguing anything because challange is relative. Regards, Miklos

This is the real point as suggested elsewhere. The real debate is about who should be able to access this game and how that is arranged across a range of combat abilities. Because combat is mathematically a zero sum game, half the combat pilots (including npcs) will be worse by definition whatever the average level. Think of it the opposite way: make npcs impossible to beat; they always win, no one escapes – ever. Everyone would want them nerfed – even the current git gudders make the npcs even harder crew. But how do you decide how far to nerf them and how do you allow the maximum possible numbers of humans to enjoy the game, even though they have very different combat skill levels – even after they have got as gud as they can. Washing the galaxy in ever harder npcs to suit a minority of combat pilots (a mathematical minority) is not the obvious solution to me.

 

[Tecker]

This is the real point as suggested elsewhere. The real debate is about who should be able to access this game and how that is arranged across a range of combat abilities. Because combat is mathematically a zero sum game, half the combat pilots (including npcs) will be worse by definition whatever the average level. Think of it the opposite way: make npcs impossible to beat; they always win, no one escapes – ever. Everyone would want them nerfed – even the current git gudders make the npcs even harder crew. But how do you decide how far to nerf them and how do you allow the maximum possible numbers of humans to enjoy the game, even though they have very different combat skill levels – even after they have got as gud as they can. Washing the galaxy in ever harder npcs to suit a minority of combat pilots (a mathematical minority) is not the obvious solution to me.

Normal NPC´s don´t need to be a Challange.
They are like Trash Mobs in other Games.....only for the Money.
Progress is everything in a Game and in ED the only Progress is to earn Money to buy better Ships and Equippment.
Sure....the old AI was lame but only through a lot of Bugs FD didn´t care about (Spin of Death or don´t open Fire)
For deadly and Elite NPC´s the AI is nearly perfect but for all NPC´s under this Ranks the AI is too hard.
I Repeat....NPC´s are Trashmobs to stimulate the Progress of a Game.

 

[Mordhar]

Normal NPC´s don´t need to be a Challange.
They are like Trash Mobs in other Games.....only for the Money.
Progress is everything in a Game and in ED the only Progress is to earn Money to buy better Ships and Equippment.
Sure....the old AI was lame but only through a lot of Bugs FD didn´t care about (Spin of Death or don´t open Fire)
For deadly and Elite NPC´s the AI is nearly perfect but for all NPC´s under this Ranks the AI is too hard.
I Repeat....NPC´s are Trashmobs to stimulate the Progress of a Game.

That is the problem.
There are two groups of players with mutually exclusive expectations.

One group wants to play space sim/flight game. With things like cockpit view only, realistic (or at least close to that) physics, logical limitation to cargo. And NPCs imitating real humans as close as possible.
Second group wants an MMO. With 3rd person combat, randomly-generated armor/weapon “enchantments”, grindable resources. And NPCs divided into “trash mobs”, “raid bosses” that need a party (“wing” in terms of this game) to defeat, and so on.

Looks like second group is winning.
At the beginning, the game was developed as “spiritual successor” to original Elite. But FD made a lot of steps lately to convert space flight game into MMO.


P.S. You said about “Progress of the Game” like it strictly defined and applicable to every player. But in fact definition of the “progress” and “goal” is a very subjective thing.
For one player it is to accumulate 100 billions of Cr and have the biggest and most expensive ship. For another – kill 1000 novice players in A-graded corvette “for the fun of it”. Someone wants to put his name on as many systems as possible. Someone is happy to care of his “pet faction” in God-forgotten system.