High wake is extremely useful and not a bugged mechanic. Mines are also extremely useful but not a guarantee. The NPCs that come after me in missions are high ranked. My remarks come strictly from personal experience. I'm not sure what you want but it almost sounds like you feel NPCs should never pose a threat. Now that would be terrible design choice.
Engineers Forcing players to kill soft targets or cops for materials
- Thread starter psyantologist
- Start date
High wake is extremely useful and not a bugged mechanic. Mines are also extremely useful but not a guarantee. The NPCs that come after me in missions are high ranked. My remarks come strictly from personal experience. I'm not sure what you want but it almost sounds like you feel NPCs should never pose a threat. Now that would be terrible design choice.
To be blunt, if you're not prepared to make even a little effort to survive... you don't deserve to survive. You don't need an "I Escape" button. You need to try a little bit.
I understand that people are frustrated because it's difficult. But when you are given an answer that works - the answer that works because it was designed to work that way - saying, "That's too much effort," kills any sympathy that I have for you.
Plan to survive, and you will survive. Plan to succeed, and you will succeed. Do neither, and you will neither survive nor succeed. It's a dangerous galaxy, Commander. The pirate who wants your cargo isn't going to stop just because you say, "But I don't want to give you my cargo." He's going to try to take it. He's going to do everything in his power to take it. And if you don't do everything in your power to stop him, take it he will.
Also, High Wake is not a workaround to a game mechanic. High Wake not being susceptible to mass lock is the intended design. FD has confirmed this.
No Offense but No.
High Waking not being Affected was likely not Intended. It was likely overlooked because it became a Standart to use it for Escape and then just left this Way.
To be Precise it was likely never Intended for NPCs to Follow you into another Battle after you Low Waked. They only Implemented this after seeing Players doing it. And then Decided to have NPCs do this as well.
Because as I said. If FD had Intended for us to High Wake out of an System in Combat in they would have Included an Emergency Jump Button giving you an Escape Vector to Approach.
Currently you Literally have to work around this Mechanic.
Because you cannot have 2 Points Selected at the same Time. For this to be on a Button you do need to have an Route to An System where you dont actually want to do. Meaning you have to use an Different Mechanic in a Way where this Mechanic is not actually Intended to be used. To Circumvent another Game Mechanic that otherwise would be Preventing you from High Waking under Fire.
And well Mate.
See here is the Problem with Game Design.
Game Design tends to be something that Relies on not only One Part. But on the Entire System to Work together.
In This Game Unfortunately. Strong NPCs are something Completely Opposed to the Remaining Systems.
The Entire Game Design of FD is not Laid out for Combat at all. Much less for Dangerous Combat where the Player can actually Die unless doing very very stupid Mistakes.
Let me give you some Examples here to Break to you why this Game Design is Completely Wrong for what you apparently think should be the Case.
First.
Majority of Weapons are Instant Impact Short Range Guns.
Meanwhile Ships are Laid out entirely for Maneuverability and Frontal Weaponry.
But this is an Incredible Poor Combination in itself. Because most of the Weapons make it entirely Ridiculous to Rely on Maneuverability.
However what is even worse. Is that these Weapon Create an Natural Rift between NPCs and Human Players.
Because these Weapons will ALWAYS hit If you Press Fire in the Right moment. There is no Evasion from something that Hits you the Moment its Fired.
And here a Human can never Beat a Machine. Because the Machine Triggers the Firing Button when it Hits. Meaning an NPC has no Skills involved here. He simply has an Set Chance of either Hit or Miss which is Hard Scripted.
Meanwhile a Human needs to have the Timing Right. Depending on his Surroundings and other Factors his Hit Rate will Vary Heavily. But most of all no matter how Good he is. its almost Impossible for him to Archieve 100% Hit Ratio even for a Short Period of Time. Because he will always miss the Timing or the Chance to Fire at all sometimes.
This is where Projectile Weapons and High Range Combat would have been not only an much more Logical Choice given that even Modern Weapons got way more than 4km Range. But would also have been an Highly Better Choice for Fights against NPCs and for the Ship Styles used.
Because this way it would make Sense using Maneuverable Ships as they can Evade Shells after they were Fired. Meaning their Maneuverability and Speed would actually Serve a Purpose. And not just turn it into an Circle Flying where everyone tries to get to each others But.
Most of all however. This would mean that the NPCs would require actual Skills that Good Players can Compete with.
Because Just Pressing the Fire Button while the Aiming Circle is on the Enemy would not Guarantee a Hit.
Meaning that the Player would have Chances to Evade an NPC even if that NPC is Scripted to get the Timing 100% Right each time.
Thats why I said several times in the past.
That for example the Combat and Flight Controls in War Thunder. Are much much more Refined and Dynamic than anything you find in Elite Dangerous.
That however is also why War Thunder is Struggling to get NPCs up to a Shape where they Pose an Real Challenge to Skilled Pilots. Because thanks to this System. They are Forced to really try and give these NPCs Skills. Rather than just Setting the Hit Chance to 100% like its done in Elite Dangerous.
Second.
The Rebuy and Prices Raise.
In Elite Dangerous. The Rebuy Cost Depends on the Value of your Ship.
That in itself is Fine.
But the Values of the Ships are Ridiculous.
Because the Money Value of a Ship rises roughly 5-8 Times Faster than its Value for Player Tasks.
Lets make an Extreme Example.
An Properly Equipped Viper Costs roughly 2 Million Credits.
An Properly Equipped Vulture easily Costs 20-30 Million Credits.
Meaning that its Money Value is 10 Times that of an Viper.
But now do you think that a Vulture should be Worth anything close to this ?
Imagine 10 Fair Skilled Vipers vs 1 Fair Skilled Vulture in Combat, In Trading, In Exploration or in anything else.
And no matter what you do. You will notice 10 Vipers are Superior.
Even 5 Vipers would be Superior.
This is Intended of course.
Because this is the Grinding Curve of the Game.
Yep. This Game works by an Grinding Curve that is Designed in the same way as World of Warcraft.
Meaning that they must Ensure that you on lvl 3 get to lvl 4 really really fast. While the Step from lvl 25 to lvl 26 needs to go very long.
So when you lvl up from Viper mk3 to Viper mk4 your Usefulnes goes up by maybe 10-15% while the Required Money for the Next Level goes up by 50-100%
Thats why from Imperial Clipper to Python your Usefulness for any Job goes up by about 20% while the Value of your Ship Raises by way more than 100% already.
From Python to Anaconda the Change is even more Sick. Your Usefulness takes another Step of 20-30% but your Value Increase goes up by more than 300%
This however also means. That if you Die on a Higher Level you Also lose much more.
And here comes the Problem.
An Python Player can make roughly 20-30% more Money per Hour than a Vulture.
But If both are Equally well Equipped. The Python Pays 300-500% of the Insurance.
So an Python Player Dying needs 5-8 Times as long as an Vulture Player to Replace his Losses.
Despite him not really being that much Stronger.
This System is for a Reason Used in pretty much every Theme Park MMORPG out there.
Meanwhile if you take a Look. The Harder MMORPGs where the Enemies you meet are actually an Challenge and might get you down even in a Normal Fight.
The Value you Invested usually also Reflects the Usefulness of your Investment.
Thats why in World of Warcraft. The Highest Sword which has 10% more Damage than the Second Highest Sword costs 200% of the Second Highest Sword.
While in a Hardcore Game like Dark Souls for example. The Sword which has like 10% more Damage only costs about 20% more than the other one.
And this is also why in this Game the Vast Majority of PvPers will use a Vulture rather than an Anaconda.
Because Risking 30 Times the Value for maybe 3 Times the Usefullness makes no Sense.
See Mate.
This Games Entire Design. Is laid out for an Theme Park MMO where you Spend your Time Grinding.
But this also Means you need Enemies that you can Grind.
If you want to Implement Enemies which are Posing an Dynamic Challenge. And which are Posing an Actual Threat rather than being Meat for the Grinder.
You would need to Go away from this Grinding System and actually give Things a Value which Represents their actual Usefullnes.
Attempting to Put Threatening NPC Encounters into an Grinding Game. Results in what you Saw right after 2.1 was Released.
Popularity of Elite Dangerous Fell through the Floor by more than 10% on Steam. And Tons of People came to the Forum because they kept Losing Money Faster than they could even Earn it.
And here comes the next Shortcoming of ED.
The Complete Lack of an Properly Crafted Learning Curve.
Currently the only Chance many Users have to actually get up the Required Skills and Knowledge is to Check Out of the Game Sources like the Forum or the Wiki.
Meaning that anyone who just Plays the Game. Will not be able to actually Play.
And this is another Fallacy you often see in this Forum.
When People Complain here. More Experienced Players come around to give them Tips.
But Players needing to Explain this already means the Game Failed. The Game was unable to Teach the Player how it needs to be Played.
The Mines you Suggest are an Good Example.
Because Many Players here say. Use Mines.
Something the Game never even tells you about.
But worse. Something that needs more Knowledge you cannot get easily. (And which is Partially Bugged) Because Mines need to be Installed on Certain Slots. Otherwise they just get Scrapped by your own Ship and never reach the Enemy.
No Offense Mate.
But Putting NPCs into this Game. Which Pose an Actual threat to the Player.
Is an Complete No Go with the Current Systems. It only Reduces the Playerbase and causes Content of this game to be Shunned away from Players which are not Interested in Combat but are constantly Forced into it.
If you Really wanted to get NPCs up to an Level where its posing a Threat. You would need to Change the Entire System of Elite Dangerous.
Away from the Current Theme Park Grinding MMO System. To an System working more like that of Hardcore Games like Mortal Online. Where the Value of your Stuff. Actually Represents how Useful it is.
Greetz Sun
So.. Here lies the problem. The above is a very narrow viewpoint (and I'm not targetting you, it's a generally aimed comment, this seems a very common reply to many complaints and whines, this just happens to be the post I quoted for reference).
If you don't participate, you're locked out of content. So, in effect, if you want to gain access to the content you invested money into, you are, in fact, forced. Forced to mine, forced to travel 5000LY, forced to blow things up when you may not be one to engage in violence...
Sadly, core parts of Engineers, whilst conceptually exciting, were fairly poorly thought out and executed. Not all of it, of course, but some key parts, certainly.
Anyways, I've explained my personal theory of what Engineers *should* have been like many times in other threads (in my personal opinion, of course), but this is not my game, I just choose to play it, and I do hope the devs will somehow work out ways to make it more fun, interesting, and relevant to play style (ie - explorers should be doing exploration style stuff to get mats, combat pilots wanting combat upgrades should be having to do combat - you get my drift).
Despite it's flaws, I still love this game, and choose to play it, but i do feel some CMDR's need to empathise a little with others, because, as I said, often you *are* forced to perform out of character tasks if you want to participate in the content you payed for, with, you know, money.
Z...
Last edited:
I agree in parts, and disagree with others. totally agree with grinding, but in terms of the gam enot teaching you something - there are descriptions for each weapon, if you ar eunable to work out what purpose a mine has, or a missile, or a cannon, or a laser... There's not a lot a game can do for you. Spoon feeding is a pet hate of mine, and ther eis nothing like working out something on your own to have an incredible feeling of satisfaction.
Having said that, what is wrong with using modern day technology to help players out? Some folk may not be wired the right way to figure out how to use certain weapons, their skills may lie elsewhere, why not help them out? The community can be a wonderful thing, where the PvP'ers can help out the traders who help out the miners who help out the explorers who help out the PvP'ers so that we can all try and get the best of the game.
Back int he 80's and early 90's, we bought magazines for this and went to the hints & tips section - praying our game was part of the monthly list.
Now, we have Google, and forum search.
Totally agree with combat, by the way. Longer range weaponry, with Lasers being more like energy weapons that fire "Star Wars" style lasers, they are fast, but more distance gives you more time to avoid, down to cannons etc that act as they are now...
This woul dhave made for very interesting gameplay, even more thought would have been needed for weapons groupings and loadouts. I do feel it's too lte now, though...
Z..
1.
Weapons not having an Accurate Description of what they are is actually a Problem.
Because lets Face a Fact here. Mines in its Original Sense are Clearly not the Case here.
In the First Place however. No offense. But if I have to Find out that Mines Fired from a Certain Hardpoint are just Broken by my own Ship by actually Trying it. Then thats beyond Poor Game Design.
Honestly said I think this is an Bug. Its not Intended. They likely never meant for this to Happen.
2.
Its not a Problem Helping People.
If you Help that is.
Because you need to know 3 Facts here.
A.
By far not Everyone comes to the Forum for Help. And Generally its not the Job of the Community to Explain Players the Basics. Its one thing if the Community Helps out in a few Shortcomings and in Advanced Stuff.
But if the Community is (like in this Game) Responsible to Teach Players Skills which they need to JUST SURVIVE in the Game. Then Sorry but the Game Design has Failed so Badly. That its hard to even Watch.
Because it means the Normal Players (90% or more) which dont ever Visit the Forum. Will be Abandoned.
B.
Self Explaining or Finding out Game Mechanics only Work in a Game which Works by the same Consistent Logic as the Real World.
But not only is the Game Logic Inconsistent. (NPCs often Dont Follow the Same Rules as Players. For example they can High Wake under Mass Lock, And they can Low Wake without Charging or Redrawing Hardpoints.) But there is often Uncleared and Different Believes among the Community on this Game Logic due to this Logic being Changed or Simply having been Misunderstood.
Alot of the Wiki Articles are not Correct anymore. And even more so alot of Advice is Half Baked or Outright Wrong.
Take my own Guess of NPC Power depending on your Ships Value.
Which was then Corrected towards the Ship Type itself Deciding the Power of NPCs.
Or take the Advice of "Use Mines" as Example.
This is Half Baked. Someone Tested Mines. It Worked. But this is only on his Certain Circumstances.
Other Ship Type just Breaks Mines on its own Hull. Or Attracks mostly NPC Ships that almost Always have alot of Point Defence.
For me for Example. Flying an Anaconda. Its really Rare to get an NPC which Lacks Point Defense. So Mines are almost useless to me to be Honest.
C.
And then there is the simple Matter of People not knowing each other.
People dont know who is actually Helping them. And lets be Honest. Alot of People here are beyond Unhelpful.
And the New Player does not Know who is who. He doesnt know the Truth. And also not who is Helpful or Right.
HORRIBLE System to get a Game Running.
3.
https://www.google.de/search?q=Elit...firefox-b&gfe_rd=cr&ei=jrONV7vFBOiv8wfFtJu4Dw
Thats what Google Said to People Mate.
So they Find mostly Annoyed other People and are Back to the Forum. Back to the Problems what I wrote above
Sorry. But Relying on the Community is just not an Good Game Design.
Even less when the Rules and Mechanics are as Unclear and Inconsistent as with Elite Dangerous.
Because Chances are that you get Information Completely Useless or even Harmful.
Well thats Fine as well. There is as many Opinions as there is Humans on the Planet.
But as I said before. Agreeing and Respecting Opinions is not the Same.
While I do Respect you having a Different Opinion. I will not Change mine or stop Advocating it as the Right one.
So if you Claim I am wrong. Courtesy Demands that you at least Reason it
Greetz
- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -
This game is not like humans in space will be. This game is how humans ACTUAL be
Remains to be Seen.
But at the very Least it Seems Weapons Technology has Taken a Massive Step Backwards.
Given that Capital Ships can Barely Fire at each other on a Range that Exceeds their own Ship.....
This is a long and great explanation. I agree to your statement more than i wanna^^ insane
This are things that most players just feel but cannot advise, thank you for your post. Not easy to read but more people should read it
+1 rep
- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -
I can't agree to your statement about the weapo s. They have made changes to the weapons and you have to try out how usefull they really are. Back in 2.0 mines and missiles were nearly useless and most players have just forgotten them. It still happens!!
For example:
The ECM, sounds great from the ingame description but why does actual no-one use it? Because the description don't fit with the way it's used and in combat, when from 2km missiles are incoming you just don't have the time to load up a countermeasure. Only crap but i had to try it.
Infame description doesn't tell you anything about the usefullness. For this you need experience from players who tryed them
Edit:
The idea that the different players help out the others don't work. Simply because of the lack of sharing cargo/mats. A combat player can not get praesodyium from a miner and a miner can not get chemical manipulators from the combat player.
For cargo there are ways...different to use but okay...wrong thread
But for mats and data this don't work. Just because
Last edited:
.
Perhaps you didn't read my previous post in this thread.
Killing is never required.
Any and all materials can be found elsewhere.
Due to the srv scanners and actual gameplay being somewhat different than that of a ship in space it does not report USS's
But you will find the exact same thing on planet surfaces.
So here you have planetary as well as space faring USS's.
And even though you can look in either of these and eventually end up finding anything you need, it seems to me that the game mechanics are more inclined to favor your searches for various materials when you are actually on a 'mission' to find something, deliver something or destroy something.
.
I did one last night where I was simply supposed to destroy 6 sentry skimmers on a planet in an anarchy system.
I landed 10km from the base in the mission.
On the way there I scanned 3 data points as well as killed 3 skimmers guarding them and earned 5 cracked firmwares as well as several other types.
I also found 4 crash sites that were being guarded by 3 to 5 skimmers each.
In this I found many canisters, many materials and even a few cargo holds which when shot open contained vanadium, arsenic.
The value of the canisters I collected was over 1mil credits, the materials were all kinds of things I needed and a few I didn't need.
The skimmers that I killed actually counted against the mission I took so before I even got to the base, the missions was completed.
The mission was worth over 2mil credits.
I realize I used the word kill in this and all I can say to that, they were skimmers, robot ships, not piloted by an npc pilot.
They are extremely dumb and super easy to destroy.
I also came across many meteorites on my path and accumulated many useful materials in that.
So this simple mission gave me rep+, credits+, materials+ and a new place on my list of good planets to drive my srv on in order to find more useful materials.
Took 45 minutes to complete.
There is a high probability that I could have simply not taken that mission and attempted to spend hours on some planet searching for all these things and found them or not find anything, or accomplished the same flying in space checking USS's.
But I take simple missions like this all the time because I know that the game is actually going to lead me into things that I may find useful.
I didn't need the credits from either the mission or the canisters that I found but I do have a use for all the materials and the firmware that I found.
And to be honest I didn't need the rep either due to me already having the highest possible rep.
This mission made gathering mats that I needed more entertaining and profitable, good results for what most players are after.
P.S.
As for Inara, the site is very useful, but does not know everything. Look up Basic conducters there...it shows 'unknown' This is wrong and sadly applies to a few other items as well.
I have a beef with a site like that which is loaded with incorrect and misleading information, the jist is that Inara is not even close to an all knowing site.
Tell me why it indicates that several items can only be gotten by mining, when as my previous post says that you can get almost all of these simply by trading goods that do NOT require mining at many stations??.
I once had a mission to find and recover some lost data canisters of some sort and even though the mission didn't seem to want to work and let me complete it by continually spawning at different locations on this planet and never actually producing the canisters I needed, every time I went to the crash site I found chemical manipulators, vanadium, tungsten, mechanical components, conductive components, mechanical scrap, the list goes on but these were the main things that kept spawning.
This went on for a week before the mission finally failed on me but I didn't care because it kept giving me all kinds of things I really needed.
That single mission allowed me to mod several weapons and it was super easy..and it failed on me...tsk.
.
Last edited:
I totally get where you're coming from re killing the unwanteds.
So i decided to overwrite the game sorta.
All ships (excluding self of course ) in anarchy systems are there for a reason. Like the wild west i guess in that no town could tolerate their brutality etc and they are so notorious they cant blend in even for a day. As if they were tossed into a system to live the only they way they know how.
I also installed the idea that once I reach rear admiral navy status, I am privy to the information about NPCs the masses do not have both with "authority ships (think Falon Gong in current chinese (brutal empire) official corruptions) and other. ----and that means ...well u can imagine.
So i decided to overwrite the game sorta.
All ships (excluding self of course
) in anarchy systems are there for a reason. Like the wild west i guess in that no town could tolerate their brutality etc and they are so notorious they cant blend in even for a day. As if they were tossed into a system to live the only they way they know how.I also installed the idea that once I reach rear admiral navy status, I am privy to the information about NPCs the masses do not have both with "authority ships (think Falon Gong in current chinese (brutal empire) official corruptions) and other. ----and that means ...well u can imagine.
Last edited:
No, thats not 'grinding curve', thats the way the world works. A £23k van doesnt carry twice as much cargo as a £12k van, it has a smoother engine, air-con and nicer seats. A £1.2M super car doesn't go twice as fast as a £400k super car. If I can make an extreme example.
A decently made Katana sword will set you back £1800, a meter of rebar will set you back about £2.50
Meaning a competent martial artist with a Katana should be able to take out 720 competent martial artists with meter lengths of rebar? No, at best 3. But in a one vs one his financial commitment to his weapon of choice will pay huge dividend.
Last edited:
That is actually a case of the weapon needing balancing. Eventually, I hope the devs get it right and make everything truly useful. The in game description *should* be an accurate representation, though I see nothing wrong with a bit of trial and error.
I, four-eggs-ample, had to figure out which hardpoints were actually useful for mines (two smalls at the back, and the two mediums on the top bow, for the record). That's part of the fun, learning to use the right weapons in the right slots.
You mis-understand.
I meant helping as in verbally, or through text, teaching another CMDR how to effectively mine, or trade, or, as above, where to mount mines on an Anaconda...
Having said that, I'd dearly love to see an in game "player" economy, or even better, player given missions - whereby a player can put up a mission for X units of mat Y, with a credit offering and other CMDR's could take that mission.
That's the thing. I wish you were right. I'm fairly sure Inara is correct about Chemical Distillery - salvage from transport ships.
But, yeah, it's only a little tweak and it could be a mission reward, hence making it unnecessary to obtain it by killing haulers, etc.
A lot of sense made during the entire thread (including people who disagree with my admittadly polarising initial post)
Makes me happy =]
Yesterday, I figured out that a Bust state makes black markets pay only a ridiculously small fraction of an items value (at least, it seems rather consistent) - I used to blame that on chance/bad luck.
Inara is correct in that, but Inara doesn't tell you that the distillers and many other items that drop from transport ships is what you will find in space and planetary USS's.
These types of USS's are usually the remnants of a crashed or otherwise destroyed ship and therefore anything that these ships would normally drop after being destroyed can also be found in space and planetary USS's....
Details, Inara is possibly assuming that players of Elite know what USS's are all about. They can be remnants from all types of ships and therefore can contain materials from any ship type.
As for ship types that drop things, the ships most likely to drop anything related to chemical processing are any ships that commonly do mining.
Manipulators, oddly drop from Asps almost everytime.
Distillers drop from type 6,7,9 and Keelbacks.
And even though bigger ships like Anaconda can and do mine, the npc ones don't usually drop any mining related equipment.
Type 6 and Keelback tend to drop lots of conductive type materials.
Sadly in crash sites(USS's) we have no idea what type of ship was destroyed unless there are still parts of the hull there.
And of course even though I have created a list of what drops from what ship type, it probably varies for each player, as well as where the ships are when being destroyed, as in combat zone, RES, Nav beacon....
Can you elaborate on the bit about load time? ECM load time is variable depending on the range you require, are you charging it for max range even when you only need a 2km range? That seems like a strange way to use it.