Apart from the fact that I don't like your patronising tone, I don't agree with anything you've posted. Why impose a 10 minute delay? Doesn't make any sense.
2.2's Instant Ship and Module Transport - Yay or Nay?
- Thread starter Kintch
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Well, I for one understand and respect your differing opinion even if I don't agree with it.
What I don't get, however, is why instant ship transfer is a "fantasy fairy tale (sic)" yet instant eject pod and travel 1k+ LY back to station is not a 'fantasy'?
If you agree both are similar and same class issues - why is one a fantasy and other not?
If you don't agree both are similar, same class issues (e.g. some action in game that passes far less time in real life than 'game time') - how do you defend ship eject/repair/rearm as not 'instant' yet ship transfer using identical mechanism is an 'instant' fantasy tale?
It's not like you need to ask special permission to fly somewhere yourself.
Exactly.
I'm confused here.
I can see how if the ship transfer system is mandatory then people might object to it, but it isnt mandatory is it?
People who want to fly each ship back and forth can just do that instead can't they?
Why is this a topic of discussion for anyone? How and why can it possibly be controversial?
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Probably because anyone who uses will be able to instantly summon their optimal ship with a heavily time invested build (module sourcing, Engineer modification) to a location (that the ship could not necessarily reach dependent on its jump range) and "interact" with others in this multi-player game.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Yes, yes it is - such is the nature of debate / argument / discussion between participants with diametrically opposed positions.
Egg timers aren't a stand in for logic. Pretending that egg-timers are a stand in for logic, when there is none to begin with, is illogical. By the way I accidentally had an accident in my sidewinder at Jaques and returned to the bubble. I am sure that would be improved by having a 10 minute timer where I can somehow do other things even though I am dead, because this is more realistic.
You wot m8? And yet there we are. It can't be 'realistic' because this effectively makes the mechanics redundant for all but very very narrow number of situations. Instant removes the need for people to be doing everything except moving ships and then getting on with all the things they wish to do.
So what happens? People spend 7k+ posts arguing over egg timers. Hilarious. It doesn't matter if it's 5, 15 or 3 hours. It's a static timer as magic to stand in for other magic. Guess what - it's still magic.
I'll drop by when we're at 10k posts because people are still arguing the best approach is to have a static egg timer because this is immersive! lol.
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Or they can buy a ship and do the same thing if they do not have horizons. We seem to be okay with this. So that's not a time issue; it's whether something is believable.
Here's the thing - a 10 minute egg timer doesn't make instant travel more believable. It just takes longer for the unbelievable to happen.
If people want to believe a timer solves the problem, then I have to actually ask which part of the mechanic is the problem? Because it isn't logic and it isn't realism and it isn't immersion.
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Between? You mean at. It's because people refuse to compromise or give ground to actually help the developer find a better solution. It's red vs blue. Over an egg timer. Sense and reason and logic left the building a long time ago.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Or they can buy a ship and do the same thing if they do not have horizons. We seem to be okay with this. So that's not a time issue; it's whether something is believable.
Here's the thing - a 10 minute egg timer doesn't make instant travel more believable. It just takes longer for the unbelievable to happen.
If people want to believe a timer solves the problem, then I have to actually ask which part of the mechanic is the problem? Because it isn't logic and it isn't realism and it isn't immersion.
Ah - but finding a shipyard with the desired ship then hunting around outfitting to get the desired modules will take time - for a vanilla build. That's why there is no direct comparison, in my opinion, between insta-transfer and sourcing a new ship/build on arrival.
Between? You mean at. It's because people refuse to compromise or give ground to actually help the developer find a better solution. It's red vs blue. Over an egg timer. Sense and reason and logic left the building a long time ago.
What possible compromise is there between "no delay" and "delay"? The discussion is only over an egg timer if one chooses to sit and watch it rather than play the game instead.
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First off, where did I advertise egg timers? My stance on this is rather some timers than completely mindless /dev/Null magic. You could find an explanation where timers indeed matter and directly affect gameplay: Post #7707 for your convenience.
Timers are the current leading concept to "solve" logic loops of instant travel by "pretending" the delay accounts for the travel, when the travel is in fact still instant, it's just the commander is now prevented fo 10 minutes or half a day or something from using that ship at all because it's locked.
Ok so here's a thought experiment for people.
I have an FDL, I decide to transfer it to me from another station. This will take just over an hour. I now cannot use this ship for an hour. I can't fly back to the source station and get it if the situation changes. Because it's not there. It's sitting at the destination station and is hidden until *ding* the egg timer runs out and *poof* like a bunny from a hat, surprise FDL.
So I have now lost an entire ship for N period of time. So lets say I transfer all bar one ship to Jaques. Now I cannot use anything other than my existing ship for 18-24 hours or more. I'm already at the destination so I have to wait potentially 21-23 hours or something for the first ships to appear, then maybe days for the rest.
In theory a delay sounds fine but in practice it's not actually workable. There are other ways to solve this, that don't need an arbitrary egg timer to "pretend" the ship is in motion.
Worse, if we take actual FSD capability as a factor; my FDL arrives tuesday week. Maybe. Meanwhile I am at that location. With one ship. Eventually the first few arrive. How is this engaging for the player? It's not like I am sending anything ahead, then driving out to Jaques, which means time has elapsed, and given time is relative, and time does weird stuff once people are near or beyond light speed, it's pretty easy to RP that.
But no, I'm not sending anything ahead. So it's waiting for me. I'm already there. But I now have lost N ships for N duration.
Better still, if I end up deciding "to heck with this" and then instant travel back to the bubble, well now my ships are half way there, maybe less, maybe more (relatively speaking) so I call them to me but there's another 1-3 days of downtime because crap is now heading back in the other direction!
So - who is going to then use this feature, where one is potentially denying themselves access to ships for entirely arbitrary periods of time? Bingo - no-one.
This is why the developers sometimes say gameplay has to trump realism. Because realism in an imagined universe has consequences and they can have a massive impact on outcomes, often entirely unintended. Sometimes the better way is to find a loophole, to explain a mechanic and have it instant, so people can play the game, rather than wait for arbitrary timers that aren't a stand in and don't actually work.
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There are entirely different methods available. Send to, is just one. You're in the same trap, the egg-timer is the only solution so what's the problem with using an egg-timer to solve logic?. It's not. But endlessly asking for one, will mean it'll appear - rather than a logical and workable outcome.
We've all seen bizarre mechanics appear purely because people become ideologically charged in their favour, even if logic is eating a bullet in the process. And then people say "well why does thing X dor thing Y?" - you asked for it to do that! Commanders are like goldfish. Immediately forget all the other logic loops and weird timers and what not that exist precisely because of the same sorts of "but my reality!" agitating.
I'm all for logic and reason; but "real" and "immersion" still have to functionally work within the fabric of the game, and there are mechanics that have all the best intention and "realism" in the world, that just make no sense and don't actually work.
I'm not against alternatives; I'm just against adding garbage timers as a "solution" to some "RP" over ship travel. As a group, I think people can be a bit smarter than that, no?
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Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
.... and how would having ships "lost" (not really, but let's go with that) in transit and therefore unavailable for use, by choice, really any different from having them at a remote location that would take days to return to (without FreeWindering)?
The lack of availability of all but one ship (due to being in transit) in the example is reliant on the choice to summon them all at the same time from distant locations - distant locations that would probably take a significant amount of time to fetch them from using the current hauler taxi method.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
There are entirely different methods available. Send to, is just one. You're in the same trap, the egg-timer is the only solution so what's the problem with using an egg-timer to solve logic?. It's not. But endlessly asking for one, will mean it'll appear - rather than a logical and workable outcome.
We've all seen bizarre mechanics appear purely because people become ideologically charged in their favour, even if logic is eating a bullet in the process. And then people say "well why does thing X dor thing Y?" - you asked for it to do that! Commanders are like goldfish. Immediately forget all the other logic loops and weird timers and what not that exist precisely because of the same sorts of "but my reality!" agitating.
I'm all for logic and reason; but "real" and "immersion" still have to functionally work within the fabric of the game, and there are mechanics that have all the best intention and "realism" in the world, that just make no sense and don't actually work.
I'm not against alternatives; I'm just against adding garbage timers as a "solution" to some "RP" over ship travel. As a group, I think people can be a bit smarter than that, no?
Send would not remove the requirement for the player to travel to the location of the desired ship to be able to send it and would therefore only save comparatively little time when fetching one ship compared to the extant method. It would also require pre-planning as to the location that the ship was to be send to - which would seem to be contrary to Frontier's stated desire to "remove barriers to gameplay" by allowing players to have any of their ships in any location at any time.
Accepting features *already* in the game is a necessity if one is to continue to enjoy playing. Providing feedback relating to a proposed change, not yet released, that has proven to be contentious with a number of the player-base is a subtly different matter.
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What game are you talking about? There is no single player game within Elite Dangerous. Everything you do effects everyone in game no matter what mode you are in, and therefore a feature like this affects every player any time it is used.
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Time is relative, there's no delay at the other end, thus it sustains both "immersion" and "now" as concepts. In other words, it has limitations, can save huge amounts of time and isn't fake.
Yes I can immediately see why everyone hates it of course how silly of me. It's not a timer.
.. not really. Just make a lot of fuss about timers, and Frontier will cave and add a timer and everyone will be very happy until they go to use the mechanic and realise it doesn't actually achieve what they thought it does. Like pretty much half the other changes people have demanded.
Yah I think 7k+ posts has more than achieved "feedback", however it's now a "feedback loop" where people are, seriously, arguing about egg-timers in a space simulation game because this is superior to simply making the mechanic follow at least some logic, and still be immediate, so that both are sustained.
I'll break the loop and come back at 10k posts to see if we've moved on from egg-timers though; that's a logic loop I just can't support.
I apologize if I come across as patronizing, but this seems to be so patently obvious to me that I can't help feeling slightly incredulous that it's even become an argument. Though I've gone over that earlier in this thread, how this likely wouldn't even be the case if not for Frontier opening their mouths with the word "instant"....
The time delay is based upon the time it takes to travel through space. You know, jumping from point A to point B? Exiting one station and docking at the next? Fueling at stars or by using station services? All those things that would have to occur for your ship to move itself from its location to you or wherever you send it?
Yeah, those things are supposed to take time.
The figure of 10 minutes is just a very rough average of what I imagine it would take if you based the duration on how fast a typical "buckyballing" CMDR using an average-jump-range ship (say, 20 ly) could get from point A to point B in a straight line.
The math doesn't need to be exacting or perfect, it just needs to be believable.
If I could rep you multiple times....
Dude, you're the only one who keeps using the idea of egg timers. It's been repeated by me and others earlier in this thread. We are not asking for an egg timer when we ask that ship transfers not be instant.
If you want to ask Fdev to do all the extra work and coding it would take to show the ship actually moving through space and to allow it to be attacked and whatever else during that transit period, you go right ahead. I, however, think it's more reasonable that we ask for the believable illusion of the transfer taking place, which would take much less time and effort.
Where do you get the idea of a full hour?
Do you know how far you can get in an hour if you just start jumping without stopping to scan and only minimal time given to scoop fuel?
Pretty damn far!
I highly doubt you would see ship transfers ever taking a full hour in actual practice, excluding transfers to Jaques! Let alone the frightening figures of 18-24 hours or days...haven't I said multiple times that transfers to Jaques ought to take half a day at most? Where on earth are you getting the idea for these numbers?
I'm against adding instant space magic gimmicks as a "solution" to "accessibility" over ship travel. As a group, I think people can be a bit smarter than that, no?
[noob]
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It's arbitrarily removing assets from the game for the purposes of pretending they are moving. Ships don't move. People want to believe they are. So a timer somehow solves this, but in fact just pulls ships out of availability for X period and then *poof* they are somewhere else.
This is the entire thrust of this thread; instant is too fast, so make it slower and thus lock ships out with a timer - are you intentionally trying to be obtuse?
Which means people will mostly ignore the feature for the vast majority of the time because it's not practical. It matters little if it's 15 minutes or 3 days (as in, whether the timer is just make believe, or based on ship capability; the latter also seems to be a thing).
But I'm not going to keep going Robert; I don't disrespect your opinion. On the contrary. I just don't agree that an egg timer solves anything and in fact it will introduce a whole new raft of issues that have ramifications people are happy to throw under the bus (how ironic) to preserve "reality".
Again, it doesn't really matter if the timer is 5 minutes or 5 days. Because it's ultimately saying that reality isn't important, just the pretense that anything is better than zero time.
People get hung up (I see this above no less) on the minutia - "I am not saying 5 days guy, it could just be a few hours or something?!" - ignoring that this is still just instant travel, with a clock deciding when the rabbit appears.
I am not against alternatives, where a realistic theory is backed by workable in-game mechanics. It's just that an artificial timer won't lead to the outcomes people pretend it will.
Fly safe, dude.
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Pssst... It's a multiplayer game too!
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Even if Frontier were to use the existing route planner to plot the route and calculate the time it would take a hired pilot to negotiate the route required to travel from the ship's stored location to the player's current location (including scooping, if fitted, or docking for fuel as necessary), the result would be a timer. However this approach would probably result in a "Sorry Dave, you can't summon that ship to this location because its jump range is just too low / it lacks a fuel scoop" response for some transfer requests - which would fail the barrier removal test.
NPCs do not exist in locations where players are not present - and even where there are players and NPCs do exist, those NPCs are client side entities - so the option to actually have the NPC fly the ship from stored location to player location is a no-go - unless, of course, Frontier would want to simulate the whole journey for each ship just on the off-chance that a player might be in one of the systems en-route and spot a random NPC in a random ship, close to the main star, while the FSD cool-down passes, fuel was (possibly) scooped and Hyper-Drive spooled up for the jump to the next system in the route.
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Have some of you lose your sense?
The #1 design flaw in E
Instant transfer of your ships and modules from one location to another is by far the biggest improvement they're making to the game since its release.
There is no sensible argument against it, no argument that actually makes any sense.
I have no issue with people suggesting instant transport is the way to go. Infact I've been in that camp myself.
However, the more I think about it, the more I believe delayed transport is the better solution:-
1) It risks less of a negative effect in OPEN.
2) It actually creates "chompier" gameplay where you have to weigh up and consider things.
You could start by not being the only one here insisting it's an egg timer?
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