The Star Citizen Thread v5

[CMDR_Orlando]

So the plan is to achieve the bare minimum? That's the BDSSE then, is it?

I sure hope not.

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It's this kind of wishful generalization that is so spread among the SC fanbase. Why do you think a BF player would enjoy the same game as an Arma player? Or an Overwatch player?

The overwatch fans are going to rip your precious space game to shreds because nothing CIG has put out so far can match the level of polish of Overwatch. There's no competition there.

The BF and COD guys are going to rip your game to shreds because they're used to tight controls and excellent gunplay - none of which are in Star Citizen. The gunplay is average and the controls are terrible.

The Arma players are probably your best shot (no pun intended), they are used to working with garbage controls and terrible gunplay. They are all about the size of the battlefield and the strategic implications of combined forces in action. I think they're the kinds of players you'll be able to attract with a somewhat competent release.
But they too will be put off by the prospect of having to pay $$$ for ships unless you grind for them for weeks on end.

So yeah. If your market analysis is "it has FPS, so all FPS fans will love it", then I'm sorry to burst your bubble but no.

Yes it is wishful generalization, but 2.6 is almost there, guess we will soon see how it holds. [big grin]

This the latests footage from FPS in Star Citizen, looks way sharpen than what we actually have so there's hope.
[video=youtube;igUL5WHPZgg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igUL5WHPZgg[/video]

 

[kilvenny]

Yeap, this right here. That's what I've been saying all along, ED and SC are not enemies, they are space games yes but not only they are being developed with different mind-sets but also they play and feel quite different. If you just look in the surface you might think that they are aiming for the same things / features, and in a way they are, but same features doesn't mean same type of gameplay. ED is more science based and SC is more fantasy based imo. They both fill space game niches that people crave for, that's why both succeed and will thrive in their own way.

I would agree they are not enemies, but they are in competition, as all games are in competition for a players time. Interestingly every time CR makes reference to ED and NMS it is in a negative framework, so he clearly sees them as opposition (enemy?). In contrast DB is always publicly positive about other space games. I agree with you about different game play, SC in its current flight model gives me motion sickness and I keep hoping they will change the characteristics, so it will become playable for me. I am impressed about what they are trying to achieve, sadly twenty years in a software house on the software side and a decade before that as an accountant makes me very sceptical, especially when I see what is currently playable after nearly 4 years. 3.0 must crack the networking issues and the glitching. If that happens then a good game may well be born, but at the moment its a hard ask that 3.0 will be such a magic cure.

I have a question thought, particularly for those who are extremely optimistic for SC. Imagine if this was a 120M budget for any other game not made by CR, would you be happy with current progress and optimistic about its future?

 

[Tippis]

FPS players (biggest / most popular genre in the world?) will join in flocks as time goes and they upgrade their pc's. Think BF/COD/ARMA/DayZ/Overwatch gaming population, just 1% of those is the equivalent of how many millions of players?

Probably somewhere in the region of 0.2. And all of them prefer very specific and very solid forms of gameplay, neither of which SC is very likely to offer.

Players will branch to whatever type of gameplay they prefer without needing to log out, all seamlessly. Add that the continuous increase in the sci-fi/space popularity and you have a big chunk of gamers interested or curious about trying new types of gameplay.

If that's what they were all longing for, Planetside would be the most popular game ever rather than a very narrow intersection between niches. Also, what is this suggestion about increased sci-fi/space popularity? What's that based on?

The notion that one game can be all things to all people is an inherently false one. That kind of mix will always be lesser in every one of its parts than a game focused on a specific type of gameplay. On top of that compromise, there's also the simple fact that not everyone wants any kind of mixing to begin with, nor anything other than a bite-sized experience, nor the kind of cumbersome and time-wasting surrounding that this “seamless” experience will enforce.

In the end, there is little or nothing to suggest that SC will have any appeal at all outside the niche market it has already fully captured.

 

[Hi-Ban]

That's a contradiction in terms. Chris is talking about releasing an MVP; that pretty much inherently means it's not going to be the full game. I mean, sure, you may think of the full game as being the minimum the backers will consider viable, but that's not what he was discussing, and it's the discrepancy between viability and expectation that has caused so many problems for other games in recent history…

The MVP is the full game, including the content of the stretch goals. That is: enhanced ship modularity, procedural(whatever) planets, facial capture in animations, more game mechanics, additional ship classes, more than 100 star systems, about 45 missions for the Sq42 campaign, additional alien ships, etc... Note that the game was a lot smaller in scope before the crowfunding started, and the original scope was less than 50 star systems, a smaller Sq42 campaign, less game mechanics, no procedural planets (previously you could only gland 2 or 3 locations per planet), etc...

The original (pre-crowfunding) plan required much less rewrite of the engine, and much less mechanics and content had to be created. That's the reason why making the game is taking quite longer than the original plan. Anyway, the MVP is the full game. Whatever we will get in between will be alphas and betas.

About the MVP not being the kind of MVP you think: They have also talked about future ideas for expanding the game after its release, you know, more ships, more star systems, more single player campaigns, etc... but that is out of the equation until they release the full game, or as you call it, the MVP. Once they finish everything and all is good and everyone is happy, then they want to expand on that, so the game has a longer lifespan.

 

[tooterfish]

From what I've seen, there's no way SC's FPS component will be able to compete with the polish and accessibility of your Battlefields or CODs. And I already get my janky but tactical kicks from Arma.

No sale, sorry.

 

[ianw]

The MVP is the full game, including the content of the stretch goals. That is: enhanced ship modularity, procedural(whatever) planets, facial capture in animations, more game mechanics, additional ship classes, more than 100 star systems, about 45 missions for the Sq42 campaign, additional alien ships, etc... Note that the game was a lot smaller in scope before the crowfunding started, and the original scope was less than 50 star systems, a smaller Sq42 campaign, less game mechanics, no procedural planets (previously you could only gland 2 or 3 locations per planet), etc...

The original (pre-crowfunding) plan required much less rewrite of the engine, and much less mechanics and content had to be created. That's the reason why making the game is taking quite longer than the original plan. Anyway, the MVP is the full game. Whatever we will get in between will be alphas and betas.

About the MVP not being the kind of MVP you think: They have also talked about future ideas for expanding the game after its release, you know, more ships, more star systems, more single player campaigns, etc... but that is out of the equation until they release the full game, or as you call it, the MVP. Once they finish everything and all is good and everyone is happy, then they want to expand on that, so the game has a longer lifespan.

Where does CR detail what is going to be in the MVP?

 

[Tippis]

The MVP is the full game, including the content of the stretch goals. That is: enhanced ship modularity, procedural(whatever) planets, facial capture in animations, more game mechanics, additional ship classes, more than 100 star systems, about 45 missions for the Sq42 campaign, additional alien ships, etc.

Again, that may be what the backers think of as “minimum viable” but it is not very clearly not what Chris was discussing, nor what they seemingly plan on delivering. Large portions of the game will be missing; numerous core components will not happen at all, or happen long after the actual release; and what's missing will be added in later to eventually bring in what people might consider the “full game”.

They have also talked about future ideas for expanding the game after its release, you know, more ships, more star systems, more single player campaigns, etc.

Yes, those might happen after the full release, if such a thing were itself to ever happen, but what comes before that — what's “minimally viable” — also contains a whole lot less.

Their expectations of what is considered minimally viable, echoed by your assumptions here, do not seem to match what an actual MVP would entail. As with every other game that has done something similar, this will cause consternation and shouting among the community. Given the vociferous and violent nature of this particular community whenever it gets upset, things can quickly become very ugly for CIG.

 

[ianw]

Sounds like the fans are just making stuff up again.

If CR had meant they were going to release the full game he wouldn't have said they were going to release a minimum viable product.

That's just blindingly obvious.

 

[McGlashan]

This the latests footage from FPS in Star Citizen, looks way sharpen than what we actually have so there's hope.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igUL5WHPZgg

Did you even watch the video? He just stands in one place, by himself, and kills himself over and over to demonstrate a specific weapon bug. There's no evidence that the FPS gameplay has changed at all, beyond that one trivial fix.

 

[AJW]

...will most likely...will join in flocks...will...

Sorry, but saying that something 'will' happen doesn't make it any more likely. Nobody has created this fantastical all-genre-fan-attracting game up to now, and I see no reason why adding spaceships is going to make any difference. The games market is simply too fragmented.

 

[Hi-Ban]

Where does CR detail what is going to be in the MVP?

There is one interview in which he talks about the topic. I don't recall if it's one of his interviews from august, or one of the latest "10 for the chairman" videos, but it's definitely one of the 2 cases.
I'll try to look for it anyway.

EDIT: Found it. You're right, SC MVP is not gonna have the "full" set of content from the first release, but the mechanics are going to be there and the feature list is already locked, so no more extra stuff will be added before the first release beyond what is stated on the stretch goals. It is Sq42 the one which will have everything from the stretch goals (which is logical in a single player campaign).
Here is the video: http://www.gamestar.de/videos/chris...ts-um-star-citizen-und-squadron-42,90207.html

 

[Soliluna]

Just read dsmart's latest blog post regarding SC from 8/9.

My God does he rattle on.

If I read it again I will condense it down just to the links he posts, as some of them are gold. His musings are a tad snide for my palate, it's easy to see why the impassioned backers become so embattled.

If anyone missed his link, I've put it in a spoiler here.

Spoiler

http://www.dereksmart.org/forums/topic/sc-scoop/

 

[darkoff]

Since people like to bring the game up,but are unable to talk about it in its current stage.It leaves me no choice but to ask this.
what star citizen wont be?

heres a example answer.
to me star citizen never promised to be strategy game.

 

[Toumal]

Dsmart needs to tone down the hyperbole and assumptions. Like, will SC ever be released? Don't answer that with a projection. Let them do it. The MVP is the best reply they have at the moment. Let that speak for itself.

 

[VidarSnipes]

Since people like to bring the game up,but are unable to talk about it in its current stage.It leaves me no choice but to ask this.
what star citizen wont be?

heres a example answer.
to me star citizen never promised to be strategy game.

Wrong. Quote from the 13 million stretch goal:

Command and Control Center – Supervise the battle from the deck of your Idris or Destroyer (class TBA) with advanced C&C packages that allow you to tie all of your ships together and assume central command from the 3rd seat.

By the way I have skimmed through the stretch goal, and if you exclude those focusing on multiple star systems, a lot of them are either ships, some of them which are already released, some space plants/pistols/ship modules and other assorted small stuff, which can be done without adding any new mechanics.

 

[darkoff]

Wrong. Quote from the 13 million stretch goal:


By the way I have skimmed through the stretch goal, and if you exclude those focusing on multiple star systems, a lot of them are either ships, some of them which are already released, some space plants/pistols/ship modules and other assorted small stuff, which can be done without adding any new mechanics.

so this was something they promised to do with 13 million. before star citizen was fully funded at 20 million mark.
slated to release with 2014 release. But because scope increased, we are going to see it done in 2019.

So whats the news about that? Surely they have started working on it since it was going to be in 2014 release anyways.

Whats next mocapped animal pets?

 

[Ian Skippy]

ED focused on a MVP first, and after that started expanding the game towards David Braben's full vision. This is a valid way, because you can present a full release earlier. But it also has its drawbacks, because every time you introduce a new expansion with new features, you must rewrite plenty of things from the ground up. This can lead up to long times between expansions, and people thinking the game lacks content, because they dont understand that they are not really playing the full game. SC has chosen a different path, to focus directly on the full vision, including every feature. This is good because you do things once and you don't have to rewrite so much stuff each time you do an expansion.

Actually, no. Thats part of the criticism you are refusing to discuss. Star Marine wasted about 18 months of development with zero return, as it had to be completely redone. It took CIG a full YEAR after they planned to release the entire game to showcase a planetary approach, and we're now 10 months further and they've added one more demo. You should have had 100 systems with planets you can land one. You've got none, with the promise of one in a few months. And the planet they did show had the fidely of Mass Effect 2. Thats the point SC fans consistently refuse to acknowledge: you cant excuse the complete failure of reaching any kind of deadline they themselves said just by pointing at even more failed promises without deadlines. In 18 months of development, FD added to ED with a fraction of the budget CIG has wings, powerplay, CQC, a couple hundred million landable planets, the SRV, engineers, enhanced AI, limpets, +-15 ships you can actually fly, the ability to add your name to a planet if you discover it, community goals and in a month we're about to get passenger missions, launched fighters, specialised graphics for different stations, two new ships etc. SC should have released fully 18 months ago, and since that time you've got half a system, and the massive improvement in the last six months has been one base and the ability to spend more money. The assumption that FD has to rewrite things from the ground up whereas CIG can go full steam is factually wrong, and to frank, so obviously wrong its rather absurd to bring it up at all.

And dont start the 'you are all haters' nonsense, plenty here backed SC and are just tired of the non-stop lies, , misdirection and propaganda without remotely acceptable results game-wise.

 

[Hi-Ban]

so this was something they promised to do with 13 million. before star citizen was fully funded at 20 million mark.
slated to release with 2014 release. But because scope increased, we are going to see it done in 2019.

So whats the news about that? Surely they have started working on it since it was going to be in 2014 release anyways.

Whats next mocapped animal pets?

Star Citizen was fully funded at 2 million. That was the money he needed for investors to "like" the project and give him money. Up to 2 million was the planned 2014 release.
Everything from then on, all the subsequent stretch goals, were extra features/content which obviously would require more time to be completed.
The 65 million stretch goal was the last one to be added to the list. No more extra features have been planned.

As for the pets, i'm not sure how you would be able to mocap an alien pet, we still don't have those on real life.

 

[milligna]

And dont start the 'you are all haters' nonsense, plenty here backed SC and are just tired of the non-stop lies, , misdirection and propaganda without remotely acceptable results game-wise.

Still, it's nice that releasing a successful game and then expanding it sensibly is grudgingly referred to as "valid." Not nearly as impressive as waffling around in circles for years, but... "valid."

The 65 million stretch goal was the last one to be added to the list. No more extra features have been planned.

That's not true. Plenty more stuff has been added to the engineering debt pile since the $65 million stretch goal. If only CR shut his mouth at that point and stopped making promises! Others can chime in with comprehensive lists that you'll ignore, but just switching from landing zones to planets you can land on yourself is a huge change and extra feature that requires way more work. Of course, that'll probably be spun as magic Germans being so ahead of schedule that they expanded the scope and added months and months of dev time to the project with PG planets instead of merely funding an R&D team.

 

[Soopyyy]

lol, the whole reason they went to crowd funding is because no investor would touch CR with a 10ft barge pole..