The Star Citizen Thread v5

[milligna]

Chill down, man. you said you couldn't play SC in VR, and i proved you wrong with 1 minute of googling. But you don't have to to attack me.

Why would I attack you? You're just saying ignorant stuff than can be dispelled with a few sentences. You didn't prove me wrong, you posted a link to videos using an injection driver I've championed since the first release, post about using on these forums for years, and do internal testing for. You seriously want to pretend I'm unfamiliar?

That ain't VR support. You just proved you don't know what you're talking about but want to talk about it anyway. Maybe you should take your own advice to "chill down" and maybe, learn about the subject a little instead of leaping in desperate to prove people wrong? It's super interesting and we're very lucky to be in the midst of the development of actually working VR tech.

Avoid coming off as clueless AND geek out over neat tech. Win/win.

 

[Mr.Nowak]

I am trying to set up a new Lave Radio episode where we talk about Star Citizen. Have to thank Allen Stroud for helping out. We can take some topics discussed here to the radio show. Will let you guys know when we get a green light.

 

[Hi-Ban]

Why would I attack you? You're just saying ignorant stuff than can be dispelled with a few sentences. You didn't prove me wrong, you posted a link to videos using an injection driver I've championed since the first release, post about using on these forums for years, and do internal testing for. You seriously want to pretend i'm unfamiliar?

That ain't VR support. You just proved you don't know what you're talking about but want to talk about it anyway. Maybe you should take your own advice to chill down and maybe, learn about the subject a little? It's super interesting and we're very lucky to be in the midst of the development of actually working VR tech.

I don't need to chill down, champion. I'm pretty calm right now.
Ok so let me see if i understand it again. Then, you are disappointed because you wanted VR support to have priority over the rest of the stuff and it hasn't been like you expected, right?

 

[milligna]

Ok so let me see if i understand it again. Then, you are disappointed because you wanted VR support to have priority over the rest of the stuff and it hasn't been like you expected, right?

Where are you getting this bit about me saying VR support has to have priority over the rest of the stuff? That's not how it works, Hi-Ban. If you intend to have VR support at all, it has to be incorporated into the basic design of the game and treated seriously or you make people physically ill. It's not a matter of "we have to do 100 systems first and we need Sataball before VR." It's: can we do this at all or will it make people sick?

Why do you keep trying to rephrase my point in such a misleading way?

Footnote: of course, if this were simply a cockpit game it COULD be baked in later if they redid the menus and redid the UI, optimized the graphics, lowered some precious fidelity. Its a lot of work and would take a long time to do, but it's feasible for bare bones support. Sadly they are so forked from CryEngine they can't just drop in their support, so it would require so much more additional work that could've been avoided had they planned sensibly.

The FPS component tho? They are utterly dishonest in not addressing the massive challenges they have making that work.

 

[Asp Explorer]

I am trying to set up a new Lave Radio episode where we talk about Star Citizen. Have to thank Allen Stroud for helping out. We can take some topics discussed here to the radio show. Will let you guys know when we get a green light.

That should be interesting. Welcome back Mr Nowak!

 

[Hi-Ban]

Where are you getting this bit about me saying VR support has to have priority over the rest of the stuff? That's not how it works, Hi-Ban. If you intend to have VR support, it has to be incorporated into the basic design of the game and treated seriously or you make people physically ill. It's not a matter of "we have to do 100 systems first and we need Sataball before VR." It's: are we going to do this at all or will it make people sick?

Why do you keep trying to rephrase my argument in such a misleading way?

You know that one of the reasons they haven't yet released so much content is because they are doing "under the hood" stuff, adding support for the different game mechanics the vanilla Cryengine didn't support etc, right? What makes you think (or know as a fact, as you seem to) that they are neither working on VR support nor they plan to?

 

[Tippis]

You know that one of the reasons they haven't yet released so much content is because they are doing "under the hood" stuff, adding support for the different game mechanics the vanilla Cryengine didn't support etc, right? What makes you think (or know as a fact, as you seem to) that they are not working on VR support?

Because VR isn't about “under the hood” stuff, or really anything that's difficult to make CryEngine support. Quite the opposite: it's all about the very visible, literal in-your-face stuff — UI, animations, movement, asset budgets, camera control, etc. Components that they have created in massive quantities without the slightest hint of consideration for VR usage and which therefore consistently inhibits VR integration at a later stage unless they plan to redo every last bit of it all over again.

 

[milligna]

What makes you think (or know as a fact, as you seem to) that they are not working on VR support?

The fact that there one dev who worked on VR left to work on VR games recently and the fact that there's no way to do standard FPS style gameplay right now without making a large percentage of users incredibly ill. Not once have they discussed that or any ideas they have to make it comfortable means to me that they aren't serious.

Everything about their UI, graphics, priorities, animation, and design screams BAD VR. That might be the hint that says to me they aren't working on VR support.

People are throwing a lot of time and money at these problems right now, it's a tough nut to crack. Far bigger brains than the Wing Commander wunderkind are trying to solve this. You honestly think CIG figured it out and just didn't tell anyone?

If they did, he'd tell us all about what their revolutionary tech to sell more ships to piggyback on the consumer launch of Rift and Vive, not put it off to some point years from now.

 

[FuriousMeow]

You clearly don't get it Hi-Ban. VR Support isn't something that can be added in later easily. It has to be built to support it to qualify as supporting it. So when one of the stretch goals to get people to put more money into it is for VR support - then it needs to be developed early on, at least the basic framework for it and the technological considerations. If not, it isn't supported.

There isn't "under the hood" stuff going on, this isn't a car. This is a game. If you want to consider something "under the hood" - then why isn't the most basic aspect of it, control support, still completely fundamentally flawed? I can't easily assign HOTAS axis at all. The SC tech demo constantly assigns random inputs instead of the one I want. I don't have any issues with any other game, but SC's frankenCringine (cringe version of cryengine) hasn't a clue how those things work because it was always designed for keyboard + mouse. That's very basic "under the hood" - and it sucks.

 

[milligna]

Components that they have created in massive quantities without the slightest hint of consideration for VR usage and which therefore consistently inhibits VR integration at a later stage unless they plan to redo every last bit of it all over again.

it's exactly this part that some people just don't seem to get. "Oh you elitist snob, you just want VR now ahead of time before playable features the rest of us plebs that backed a game that was um, supposed to push graphics tech and pcs to the very limit like the old pc games and... uh... oh wait I just fell into my own logic hole considering VR is what's pushing graphics tech and pcs to the very limit."

It isn't good for the project or the devs to have to rework everything on a massive scale later. Why does that make any sense to some people? Jesus. What's wrong with sensible planning if you fundraised promising VR support? Why not plan for it, then?

I know when you have the party line it's easier to stick to it, but is it REALLY so hard to grasp that planning for a promised feature from the start makes it possible to actually have the promised feature when it's something that is so affected by every step taken during development? It's just good planning, it's not VR favoritism. It's not sticking it to people who want a Merchantman in the game first.

it's just good planning.

Something foreign to CR, apparently.

 

[Hi-Ban]

The fact that there one dev who worked on VR left to work on VR games recently and the fact that there's no way to do standard FPS style gameplay right now without making a large percentage of users incredibly ill. Not once have they discussed that or any ideas they have to make it comfortable means to me that they aren't serious.

Everything about their UI, graphics, priorities, animation, and design screams BAD VR. That might be the hint that says to me they aren't working on VR support.

People are throwing a lot of time and money at these problems right now, it's a tough nut to crack. Far bigger brains than the Wing Commander wunderkind are trying to solve this. You honestly think CIG figured it out and just didn't tell anyone?

If they did, he'd tell us all about what their revolutionary tech to sell more ships, not put it off to some point years from now.

Being VR users probably under 1% of their playerbase?
If they did that, plenty of people would accuse them of "wasting their money" working into superfluous and unnecessary stuff when there are much more important things to work into. You know why?
Because each one of the 1,5 million CIG users has its own favourite feature/ship/whatever in SC, and each one of them thinks his personal favourite feature/ship/whatever is the most important one. And if CR doesn't prioritize their favourite feature/ship/whatever, then it means CR is a blabbering monkey who has no idea of game development, and the game is gonna be a big fail because it doesn't have his favourite feature/ship/whatever since alpha 1.1

Either way, the best we can do is wait and see what they release as MVP. Then, and only then, we will be able to criticise as much as we want.

 

[milligna]

If they did that, plenty of people would accuse them of "wasting their money" working into superfluous and unnecessary stuff when there are much more important things to work into.

Well, then CR shouldn't have promised VR support, been on panels with Palmer Luckey promising VR support, or continued selling ships claiming they'll have it if they consider it superfluous and unnecessary. Because then I wouldn't have given him my superfluous and unnecessary money.

Doesn't matter to me what ignorant people that aren't in charge of the company say about VR, I just believed CR when he sold me his bill of goods. So my fault, really.

Because each one of the 1,5 million CIG users has its own favourite feature/ship/whatever in SC, and each one of them thinks his personal favourite feature/ship/whatever is the most important one. And if CR doesn't prioritize their favourite feature/ship/whatever, then it means CR is a blabbering monkey who has no idea of game development.

I've already addressed this. You're not getting it. It's not this ship or that ship OR some VR support. It's... can we do VR at all? And if you're going to promise it and raise money on having it, you should plan for it properly. The fact that you're somehow equating VR support as a minor feature that compares to something like additional assets is ludicrous. The CIG supporters love saying how the asset team isn't the one working on the engine, right?

Either way, the best we can do is wait and see what they release as MVP. Then, and only then, we will be able to criticise as much as we want.

Then, and only then? Why? They have my money, won't give it back, and just release garbage and continue talking rubbish. Criticizing them is totally valid and doesn't require your stamp or the Nintendo seal of approval.

 

[FuriousMeow]

Being VR users probably under 1% of their playerbase?
If they did that, plenty of people would accuse them of "wasting their money" working into superfluous and unnecessary stuff when there are much more important things to work into. You know why?
Because each one of the 1,5 million CIG users has its own favourite feature/ship/whatever in SC, and each one of them thinks his personal favourite feature/ship/whatever is the most important one.

Either way, the best we can do is wait and see what they release as MVP. Then, and only then, we will be able to criticise as much as we want.

No. It's very easy, well I thought it was. I don't even have VR and I'm waiting at least another generation or two to get a unit but it needs to be built into consideration early on in the engine - especially an off-the-shelf that the team is clearly struggling with - in order for it to qualify as support. That's the first part. The technical part in a way. The second part, the part that matters the most, is that it was a stretch goal. The whole reason for millions of dollars to be poured into this terrible fever dream of CR's. So millions of dollars went into this very specifically for the VR stretch goal. That's not a waste of funds, that was the entire purpose of them.

How do you not get that?

Either way, the best we can do is wait and see what they release as MVP. Then, and only then, we will be able to criticise as much as we want.

Oh projectile liquidy viscous fecal matter from any large animal's anus - we can criticize as much as we want since a) we gave this doink money, b) he has failed to deliver at every single turn, and c) he's pulling the exact same <series of expletives> as he did with Freelancer that resulted in him getting booted off the project by Microsoft so something could get released before the heat death of the Universe.

 

[Tippis]

Being VR users probably under 1% of their playerbase?

Then they should perhaps just cut their losses and declare that, no, this will not be a VR game — it's simply not worth the effort for the amount of customers it will bring in. And that would be fine. It would perhaps be disappointing, but it would be sensible and it would be honest, and they could just offer refunds to anyone who no longer wishes to support the game because it no longer has the feature that made them back it to begin with.

But instead we have this current situation where VR is still promised, and yet not part of the development process at the stage where it is the most critical that it is being part of their design considerations.

Either way, the best we can do is wait and see what they release as MVP. Then, and only then, we will be able to criticise as much as we want.

No. We are able to criticise as much as we want at any time we want. Especially at times when it is very clear that their actual development is deviating from the product they've sold to their customers.

 

[Asp Explorer]

Being VR users probably under 1% of their playerbase?
If they did that, plenty of people would accuse them of "wasting their money" working into superfluous and unnecessary stuff when there are much more important things to work into. You know why?
Because each one of the 1,5 million CIG users has its own favourite feature/ship/whatever in SC, and each one of them thinks his personal favourite feature/ship/whatever is the most important one. And if CR doesn't prioritize their favourite feature/ship/whatever, then it means CR is a blabbering monkey who has no idea of game development, and the game is gonna be a big fail because it doesn't have his favourite feature/ship/whatever since alpha 1.1

Either way, the best we can do is wait and see what they release as MVP. Then, and only then, we will be able to criticise as much as we want.

But CR himself stated that CIG would be focusing on VR in 2016

 

[jcrg99]

Being VR users probably under 1% of their playerbase?
If they did that, plenty of people would accuse them of "wasting their money" working into superfluous and unnecessary stuff when there are much more important things to work into. You know why?
Because each one of the 1,5 million CIG users has its own favourite feature/ship/whatever in SC, and each one of them thinks his personal favourite feature/ship/whatever is the most important one. And if CR doesn't prioritize their favourite feature/ship/whatever, then it means CR is a blabbering monkey who has no idea of game development.

Either way, the best we can do is wait and see what they release as MVP. Then, and only then, we will be able to criticise as much as we want.

So we went from 6 million dollars and a game with everything that was dreamed to be put on it (including VR support) to a 100+ million dollars game where a MVP 2+ years delayed is what we can get and then, only then, we will be able to criticize as much as we want...
Sorry man... Just sorry. You can't be serious.

 

[Osmanthus]

Being VR users probably under 1% of their playerbase?
If they did that, plenty of people would accuse them of "wasting their money" working into superfluous and unnecessary stuff when there are much more important things to work into. You know why?
Because each one of the 1,5 million CIG users has its own favourite feature/ship/whatever in SC, and each one of them thinks his personal favourite feature/ship/whatever is the most important one. And if CR doesn't prioritize their favourite feature/ship/whatever, then it means CR is a blabbering monkey who has no idea of game development, and the game is gonna be a big fail because it doesn't have his favourite feature/ship/whatever since alpha 1.1

Either way, the best we can do is wait and see what they release as MVP. Then, and only then, we will be able to criticise as much as we want.

So wait.

You've just spent the last page arguing how SC has VR support, and now you're saying the reason they don't have VR support is because the VR userbase is so small?

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Then they should perhaps just cut their losses and declare that, no, this will not be a VR game — it's simply not worth the effort for the amount of customers it will bring in. And that would be fine. It would perhaps be disappointing, but it would be sensible and it would be honest, and they could just offer refunds to anyone who no longer wishes to support the game because it no longer has the feature that made them back it to begin with.

But instead we have this current situation where VR is still promised, and yet not part of the development process at the stage where it is the most critical that it is being part of their design considerations.


No. We are able to criticise as much as we want at any time we want. Especially at times when it is very clear that their actual development is deviating from the product they've sold to their customers.

Definitely. CIG can't have its cake and eat it: if it wants to claim it's really so open, then criticism is perfectly valid. One can't claim CIG is the most open development evvurr and then cry foul when people take issue with their development​

 

[Asp Explorer]

[video=youtube;b9u9yPDNI1o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9u9yPDNI1o[/video]

Around 54:34 for the VR bit

 

[Hi-Ban]

So wait.

You've just spent the last page arguing how SC has VR support, and now you're saying the reason they don't have VR support is because the VR userbase is so small?

No, i'm arguing that the reason they don't say they have VR support MIGHT be because the userbase is small and people tend to whine about everything and anything.
Hell, people whine about developers rushing games development, but then the next day the same people whine about developers NOT rushing games development.
But let me quote myself once more, because it looks like some users here have a very volatile memory:

You know that one of the reasons they haven't yet released so much content is because they are doing "under the hood" stuff, adding support for the different game mechanics the vanilla Cryengine didn't support etc, right? What makes you think (or know as a fact, as you seem to) that they are neither working on VR support nor they plan to?

 

[milligna]

Then they should perhaps just cut their losses and declare that, no, this will not be a VR game — it's simply not worth the effort for the amount of customers it will bring in. And that would be fine. It would perhaps be disappointing, but it would be sensible and it would be honest, and they could just offer refunds to anyone who no longer wishes to support the game because it no longer has the feature that made them back it to begin with..

Exactly this. Honor "the pledge." Treat us like adults, tell the truth about it, give me my damn refund since that's the only reason he got my card information.