The Star Citizen Thread v5

[Soliluna]

Actually I notice the opposite, everyone would like space-legs, if only to walk around your hangar and appreciate your hard earned ship, go inside, walk around it. Just look at the countless hours that people spending grinding and grinding to reach that Conda/Corvete/Cutter... Wouldn't it be nice to be able to just appreciate all that effort in first person?
Just a walk-able hangar would do more for the game immersion than Powerplay imo.

I don't want space legs and certainly wouldn't trade what we have got.

I want more planets scoped out, water worlds, atmosphere worlds, gas giants etc.

I don't play the game to walk around, I play it to fly around, in space and on the things that reside in space.

For me, walking can come when this is entirely fleshed out.

 

[Maruun]

You must have noticed by now that quite a lot of ED players do not want spacelegs, espescially the old guard. I am not one of them, I am looking forward to it and am glad its on the planning. To suggest the spacelegs is on the same scale as engineers effort-wise is absurd though. Multicrew is 2.3, so not entirely sure what your point is. More importantly: we at least have engineers, powerplay and actual game mechanics. That makes me happy, because a game without mechanics is a tech demo to most.

Thats not the problem, spacelegs sounds all awesome. The problem is making it engaging or something that adds to the overall game.
Considering that FD has to implement spacelegs for VR users aswell it makes it quite a challenge.
Considering its a expansion it will also be optional, you either do anything from your ship as per useally or go the "immersion" route and do the same stuff while walking around the station. Just for "immersion" its a pretty huge amount of work.
So what adds spacelegs outside of the immersion stuff. X-Rebirth did the immersion route too with its "legs" and the first mod released was the one that made it optional.

The difference with SC and ED about their implementation. SC did it from the start so players dont ever experienced the "fast way" for ED its adding something that would remove the "fast way" to add immersion.

-add
So the most fear would be that spacelegs is a "nice to have" but for the time and work put into it rather pointless outside of immersion. That would be in my understanding the MOST challenging expansion for ED. From a techncial and gameplay perspective. As i mention VR is something they will have to consider and their is no FPS game for VR out their that makes you not teleport around in order to "move" because otherwise you get motion sick.

 

[CMDR_Orlando]

If you want the most immersive gaming experience there is going, play anything even ACM from the first person perspective when you are off your head on prescription medicine (this is not a serious suggestion kids, drugs are bad mkay).

The thing is I play ED despite pain, playing SC is pain.

So that's why you post here! To relieve the pain, now it all makes sense. [big grin]

 

[Tippis]

Actually I notice the opposite, everyone would like space-legs, if only to walk around your hangar and appreciate your hard earned ship, go inside, walk around it. Just look at the countless hours that people spending grinding and grinding to reach that Conda/Corvete/Cutter... Wouldn't it be nice to be able to just appreciate all that effort in first person?

No. Why would it be? It's a tool to do a job better, or possibly to show off to others. You appreciate the effort by flying it. After all, that's the whole purpose of getting it.

We've seen the same debate before, connected to ambulation in EVE. It turned out that almost no-one like space legs because it served no real purpose. In fact, it just turned out to be a pointlessly cumbersome and slow UI that people eventually forced the devs to let them bypass completely. The devs, for their part, were heavily entrenched in your line of thinking, and it ended up costing them almost 20% of their customers before they finally got the point and reversed course — even then, they never really recovered from that shock.

So where you get the notion that everyone would like space-legs is still quite curious.

 

[Maruun]

No. Why would it be? It's a tool to do a job better, or possibly to show off to others. You appreciate the effort by flying it. After all, that's the whole purpose of getting it.

We've seen the same debate before, connected to ambulation in EVE. It turned out that almost no-one like space legs because it served no real purpose. In fact, it just turned out to be a pointlessly cumbersome and slow UI that people eventually forced the devs to let them bypass completely. The devs, for their part, were heavily entrenched in your line of thinking, and it ended up costing them almost 20% of their customers before they finally got the point and reversed course — even then, they never really recovered from that shock.

So where you get the notion that everyone would like space-legs is still quite curious.

If you think about it EVE had the same problem ED has now . From a fast conventient method to a immersive way that cost more time to do the same stuff they did before the addition.

 

[CMDR_Orlando]

No. Why would it be? It's a tool to do a job better, or possibly to show off to others. You appreciate the effort by flying it. After all, that's the whole purpose of getting it.

We've seen the same debate before, connected to ambulation in EVE. It turned out that almost no-one like space legs because it served no real purpose. In fact, it just turned out to be a pointlessly cumbersome and slow UI that people eventually forced the devs to let them bypass completely.

So where you get the notion that everyone would like space-legs is still quite curious.

Well just from general feedback, for instance Elite also attended Gamescom, they also did gameplay presentation, but nobody heard feedbacks from it in the press, what was shown didn't interest the mainstream gaming media or maybe they forgot to sign up for the gamescom awards. Either way, imo space legs is a must in any open world/universe game. Being an avatar makes all the difference and compared with both powerplay and engineers it would cater to to a much larger player base. We noticed a great boom in players coming from the NMS disappointment but retention was almost 0, numbers came back down to the same concurrency than before. People want legs above else. They want to be commandos piloting a ship or walking into a bar not just ship's with commandos inside.

 

[Voivod]

I would assume that posting in a forum would be just as dampening but anyway, I played Star Citizen for a week with a broken finger because I was having so much fun in AC with the new ships. Guess when you have fun not even pain get's in the way.

Fun in AC for a week??
Yeah, sorry mate.. noone believes that

 

[Ian Skippy]

To a similar effect, I'm pretty happy we don't have multicrew or space legs since they've not really explained what purpose they're supposed to serve. I mean, multicrew sounds interesting on the face of it, but how does it really combine with ED gameplay? What are those other people going to do while I stick my nose into earthlikes to gobble up the explorer cash? Launchable fighters have a similar problem: what's the benefit over simply having more people in more ships? That problem has existed since, oh, at least the Planetside (1) days, and I don't think anyone has really come up with a particularly good answer.

SC is no different: it's a neat feature to have on the list, but what purpose will it serve in the overarching gameplay loop?

Ship-launched fighters obviously have the advantage of being useful outside of wings. You can even use it in Solo. Personally I find the notion of multicrew and spacelegs grand, even if it isnt numerically the most advantageous thing you can do. It increases mah immersion. I'd love to have my own little appartment on a base, a space with all my ships and modules, being able to visit the black market etc. I like it in SC, heck I even like it in X:R. But obviously many do not, and find it a waste of dev time and player time. Thats why many people oppose it in ED, and have succesfully gotten egosoft to add a menu that allows people to fully bypass spacelegs. This brings us to:

Actually I notice the opposite, everyone would like space-legs, if only to walk around your hangar and appreciate your hard earned ship, go inside, walk around it. Just look at the countless hours that people spending grinding and grinding to reach that Conda/Corvete/Cutter... Wouldn't it be nice to be able to just appreciate all that effort in first person?
Just a walk-able hangar would do more for the game immersion than Powerplay imo.

When I say 'notice', I mean 'read the words other people type in the forums and accept their opinions even if they disagree with you'. Its been a constant debate around here, with many feeling spacelegs doesnt fit with ED and they should spend the time on making the space-part better. You can see an example just two posts about yours, and this isnt even a 'should ED have spacelegs' topic. When you say 'everyone wants spacelegs', you either have a very solipsistic idea of 'everyone', you simply dont bother to read the opinions of others or you're intentionally spreading misinformation. Neither of them is very nice, to be honest. It would be nice if you would start to acknowledge other people have opinions, maybe bother to read them, consider their point of view and all that. It would probably increase the quality of this topic.

 

[1500]

Actually I notice the opposite, everyone would like space-legs, if only to walk around your hangar and appreciate your hard earned ship, go inside, walk around it. Just look at the countless hours that people spending grinding and grinding to reach that Conda/Corvete/Cutter... Wouldn't it be nice to be able to just appreciate all that effort in first person?
Just a walk-able hangar would do more for the game immersion than Powerplay imo.

And after the first 10min of novelty wore off? Then what? It does not add gameplay, it does not add content. Much like SC it adds nothing.

I would much rather see FD add content to the game, add more gameplay and deeper mechanics, then fluff that gives people no reason to play.

 

[Insignificant_The_Galaxy_Cat]

Haha 500k and it's a pre alpha release.... actually more than i thought.... sales numbers at this point are not indicative of popularity.

Not many want to buy an unfinished game. But by and large the enthusiasm surrounding Star Citizen is much greater than Elite at the moment.

Look at the views for the 3.0 demo and compare them to views of the previews of planetary landings for Elite.... there is no comparison.

You do realise that for Star Citizen (and Squadron 42) to be considered a successful release, they'll have to re-coop the $123 million (and rising) pre-sale outlay that has already gone into the game fairly quickly don't you?

That would require sales approaching record figures for a PC-only release.

It would also mean that CIG would need to substantially increase the player base by several times to get to such a point.

500,000 users for a pre-Alpha release?

Big whoop-dee-doo.

That's halfway to equalling Wing Commander 3 in total sales... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_games

To get to the kind of figures that gets CIG to effectively break even, then they'll need to have a game that sells at least as well as say, Overwatch or maybe Diablo III did at launch, and then continue that momentum for the rest of the year afterward.

Do you *honestly* think that will happen? With a space game? On the PC? As a niche title that hasn't really impressed much (at all) during it's "Alpha" stage?

Really?

 

[Stigbob]

So that's why you post here! To relieve the pain, now it all makes sense. [big grin]

Laughter is the best medicine. CR always delivers on the comedy, just like Ed Wood.

 

[Asylum]

To a similar effect, I'm pretty happy we don't have multicrew or space legs since they've not really explained what purpose they're supposed to serve. I mean, multicrew sounds interesting on the face of it, but how does it really combine with ED gameplay? What are those other people going to do while I stick my nose into earthlikes to gobble up the explorer cash? Launchable fighters have a similar problem: what's the benefit over simply having more people in more ships? That problem has existed since, oh, at least the Planetside (1) days, and I don't think anyone has really come up with a particularly good answer.

SC is no different: it's a neat feature to have on the list, but what purpose will it serve in the overarching gameplay loop?

I'm surprised how much I dislike space legs, at least SC's early pre pre pre alpha versions of it. It was a mechanic I thought I WOULD LOVE, but it turns out I really don't at all.

I prefer a flight centric/ship centric mechanic personally, I didn't know that until I played the PRE PRE PRE alpha vs of SC. So I'm okay to wait for Elite and see what they do...I'm okay it's not in the game right now (space legs). I do like going out in the SRV. Thing is these aren't real ships no matter how IMMERSIVE they are, so having played FPS's since Wolfenstein I really don't care to walk around virtual 3D boxes to get to and from my controls. It just doesn't translate the way it would in real life. You are still just pushing buttons on a keyboard.

I guess that's why I like a hotas over mouse and keyboard...the simple mechanics of it are something I don't do day to day while at work.

Just my opinion but I really don't care to walk around my ship and "look at it" from the outside. I had fun earning it and that was reward enough .

Happy for those that do though, again I don't want to pull the fun rug from them...just a single case study example of not really loving space legs...being fine with NO space legs and SC being the game that has taught me that.

Although I can't stand the ship to ship combat in SC either...but it's PRE PRE PRE alpha so i'm okay to see what they ultimately come out with.

 

[CMDR_Orlando]

Fun in AC for a week??
Yeah, sorry mate.. noone believes that

Yes it was a free-flight week with all the ships available, you could get AC matches 24/7 with no downtimes. I did also Tried the Elite Arena free weekend but couldn't manage to find a single match, pity.

 

[Zetta]

Well just from general feedback, for instance Elite also attended Gamescom, they also did gameplay presentation, but nobody heard feedbacks from it in the press, what was shown didn't interest the mainstream gaming media or maybe they forgot to sign up for the gamescom awards.

Absolute rubbish. There was quite a large buzz regarding Thargoids coming to Elite and the whole puzzle solving thing that led to the discovery of the crashed ship.

Either way, imo space legs is a must in any open world/universe game. Being an avatar makes all the difference and compared with both powerplay and engineers it would cater to to a much larger player base. We noticed a great boom in players coming from the NMS disappointment but retention was almost 0, numbers came back down to the same concurrency than before. People want legs above else. They want to be commandos piloting a ship or walking into a bar not just ship's with commandos inside.

While it might be nice one also has to be reaslistic. Implement walking on ships and it leads to;
Walking in hangars, and what are you going to do in your hangar?
And then in stations, and what are you going to do in stations?
And then in cities, and what are you going to do in cities?
And then on planets, and what are you going to do on planets?
The amount of work to implement one new aspect of gameplay grows horrifically with each addition.

 

[jcrg99]

People want legs above else.

No. That is not true. I also believe that most people want legs. But not "above else".

 

[Ian Skippy]

I'm surprised how much I dislike space legs, at least SC's early pre pre pre alpha versions of it. It was a mechanic I thought I WOULD LOVE, but it turns out I really don't at all.

I prefer a flight centric/ship centric mechanic personally, I didn't know that until I played the PRE PRE PRE alpha vs of SC. So I'm okay to wait for Elite and see what they do...I'm okay it's not in the game right now (space legs). I do like going out in the SRV. Thing is these aren't real ships no matter how IMMERSIVE they are, so having played FPS's since Wolfenstein I really don't care to walk around virtual 3D boxes to get to and from my controls. It just doesn't translate the way it would in real life. You are still just pushing buttons on a keyboard.

I guess that's why I like a hotas over mouse and keyboard...the simple mechanics of it are something I don't do day to day while at work.

Just my opinion but I really don't care to walk around my ship and "look at it" from the outside. I had fun earning it and that was reward enough .

Happy for those that do though, again I don't want to pull the fun rug from them...just a single case study example of not really loving space legs...being fine with NO space legs and SC being the game that has taught me that.

Although I can't stand the ship to ship combat in SC either...but it's PRE PRE PRE alpha so i'm okay to see what they ultimately come out with.

Well, spacelegs in zero-g probably would have some sort of dual-stick interface which could be fun. One problem with spacelegs is VR, normal walking is horrible in VR. Not an issue for SC, but certainly one for ED. Noone is going to put their VR on and off when going in/out the pilot seat.

 

[CMDR_Orlando]

No. That is not true. I also believe that most people want legs. But not "above else".

Well above Powerplay and Engineers and Ship Transfer I'm sure ^^

 

[Ian Skippy]

You do realise that for Star Citizen (and Squadron 42) to be considered a successful release, they'll have to re-coop the $123 million (and rising) pre-sale outlay that has already gone into the game fairly quickly don't you?

That would require sales approaching record figures for a PC-only release.

It would also mean that CIG would need to substantially increase the player base by several times to get to such a point.

500,000 users for a pre-Alpha release?

Big whoop-dee-doo.

That's halfway to equalling Wing Commander 3 in total sales... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_games

To get to the kind of figures that gets CIG to effectively break even, then they'll need to have a game that sells at least as well as say, Overwatch or maybe Diablo III did at launch, and then continue that momentum for the rest of the year afterward.

Do you *honestly* think that will happen? With a space game? On the PC? As a niche title that hasn't really impressed much (at all) during it's "Alpha" stage?

Really?

Huh? If SC releases with more money left-over, all expenses paid and the product being close enough to prevent lawsuits, the release is a commercial succes.

 

[milligna]

I'm not that interested in space legs and for the past few years have been pretty meh about it on the forums.

Nobody wastes times in MMO bars in almost 20 years of MMOs anyway, why would I want to stand around a bar of Star Citizen players? It's all just bunny hopping racing about and not talking to people for the most part.

I suppose if they do it sensibly as indicated and start with ships/planets, that might work. But trying to make it fit VR will be tricky, and VR is waaaay more immersive than some crappy CryEngine headbobbing around. You want to talk about scale and appreciating the size of your ships? VR slays the competition in that department.

Walking around planets? Too slow. NMS was agony, excruciating. I much prefer zipping around in the SRV which works way better in VR.

Multicrew I am REALLY looking forward to, this will be a great fit with how I play the game with friends and I'm looking forward to chatting on the bridge of a big ship with friends and then launching fighters for more interesting combat instead of just a guy manning a turret or pathetically adjusting shields.

I liked that snide comment about countless hours grinding for ships, tho. Geeee what a shame Frontier aren't vicious moneygrubbers and sold Anacondas for money, right?

Nobody plays AC, it's the same 4 guys all the time. Insisting this broken pile of crap is a better game on all levels than the one that's released and expanding on their own forum is adorable, tho! I really should consider spending hours every day posting about Elite and defending David Braben's honor on the EVE forums or something.

Oh wait, that would be silly.

 

[jcrg99]

Well above Powerplay and Engineers and Ship Transfer I'm sure ^^

Above a better and fun flight model? Above better sound effects? About a stable/working game? Above the implementation of all core mechanics that made a good space game of two decades ago, that Elite has in richer level, but Star Citizen don't have even in the basic level? Above sacrificing the capacity of the game ever evolving properly in a timely manner?
I doubt.

If they made a poll in the Star Citizen community saying: "We are going to release this game first without legs and then, go from there, adding that after first release, so you get all the core features implemented first", do not make mistake. The "community" would answer "Yes" and I am sure that you would be here, in the Elite forums, defending how great was their decision.