Any grind, is in your mind.

[JuicerPrime]

From what you are saying about the Fed rep - can you not see that it is a choice made by the player to achieve this? The game has various mission types each with a reward of influence towards the rank desired, the number of missions you need to complete would be lower if you take the higher ranked missions - again a form of choice given to you to help reduce the amount of time required to get the rank you want. It is your own desire that has created the need to do the work, it's all been your choice to satisfy this self made need/want.

Ranks maybe, but ships is a stickier issue. Unless there's another way to get a ship locked by a Federation rank - and as far as I know there hasn't been an event allowing that like there was for the Empire (yet) - players looking to obtain said ship haven't got any other choice but to start grinding those beans, high yield or otherwise. Personally I'd prefer Empire though, not because of ideology but because of the Cutter, because it's gorgeous. [heart]

This is a debate that will continue to crop up on the forums and in my own opinion is a direct result of the 'Have now' generation who seem to think every thing should be handed to them on a plate as opposed to working for it. Let's put the question a different way: If you were given access to the ship on the understanding that you would only work towards the rank until it is achieved, would you still take the ship?

This meme reflects badly on you, Bran. It's built on limited perspective, blanket assumption and pettiness of spirit, and possibly a fundamental denial of the effects of evolutionary process on thinking and technology. I occasionally hear it repeated by angry Boomers - does that mean I should assume all members of that generation are guilty of these things? Absolutely not. Open your mind, Quaid. Open your miiiiiiind~

[video=youtube;jlkKYpnFu5o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlkKYpnFu5o[/video]

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I wanted to talk about that too but felt I was blabbering on a bit much but you didn't answer my question. Given trading as the only game - you wouldn't play Elite. You would get bored of it you pretty much said that. I'm taking that further to more extremes to make the point they're all pretty boring aaaaannndddd....

as you said, meaningless - which is another massive issue.

When I play 7 days to die, I'm mining with a pickaxe. It takes hours, you chop away blocks and then u might hit a vain. Once you hit the vein you're there for hours more. This is so much fun because of these reasons

1. It helps out your friends and your base
2. it gives you different ores which make different recipes
3. Veins go off randomly meaning you have to chase them.
4. You need to shore up your mine.
5. Add platforms and steps
6. all this leads to planning your mine as it can collapse.

So in a very simple mechanic, you have meaning - it will help you survive. You have planning, so you need to think. You have exploration and discovery as well as variation.

ED definitely needs so depth to it

Sorry for the late reply, been busy. I think the basic gameplay is okay, and I certainly don't find it boring, but I do agree with you that all these gameplay elements can be expanded upon.

The best time I have had in any game was during the Lugh War. You can find out about it in Lugh with the tourist beacons ;-). I had a compelling reason to do what I was doing and just having that alone made the game even better in my eyes. That is lacking at the moment and I think that should be addressed more than anything else.

Yes but you are not the the player base. How you play is not where we judge if a game is grindy or not. We need to look objectively, not subjectively. This game has a name for itself in "Shallow", "Grindy" and "Netflix" - this is what masses of people have described it.

Why are we ignoring that?

Oh another thing I wanted to ask you, would you play the game if you didn't have VR - how do u think you would rate it then?

I do not know why people call it Grindy or Netflix. I just don't have the time to watch netflix when I play. Shallow, yes I can see that, see above.

Regarding VR, I have only had it a month, so yes I would still be enjoying the game (been playing since gamma/beta). People see things as time sinks for example landing and taking off from planets. I see them as an event in itself. I love it and certainly don't want it sped up. It just feels epic, and that is what I love about the game. The scale is amazing, seeing this dot of a planet slowly get bigger, then you see the details, you get closer and go into oribital cruise, i see an interesting area, and I fly down to it to get an amazing view for the huge mountain range I have just seen, and now I have the ability to drive around it in my SRV.

That to me is superb. Others maybe not. But it is up to them to find their own path, and if they find that path boring or a grind or you think you have to watch netflix, then maybe they should have a long look in the mirror and maybe change the way they approach the game. But it is at the end of the day, their choice how they approach it.

Sure there can be grind. But it certainly isn't designed to be like that. We have been given a load of tools, how we use them is up to us.

 

[Jex =TE=]

The number one grind I have found so far is reading this thread! Seriously start at page 1 and see if you can make it to here or not?

I'm not planning to take either side of the argument, eg I won't say one set is wrong and one set is right, although I suspect I may appear to lean more in one direction as I type more. I will say that the thread seems pointless as in 2 different sets of people with differing opinions continuing to try and convince the opposite side they are right, when it is apparent that neither will budge.

Somebody posted from Wikipedia earlier. A lot of people like Wikipedia, while another set of people will complain about its inaccuracy. I'm going to be more oldschool and use a more 'definitive' source, which is the physical copy of the Complete Oxford English Dictionary which I have sat on my lap.

I can see 2 definitions of 'grind' in here which are appropriate to this discussion:

1.) Produce something laboriously (and definition of 'laborious' from the same source: requiring considerable time or effort).
- On this one I think it's very hard to argue that there is not grind in ED, if we wish to 'produce' something (ship, engineer upgrades, rank, etc) for our efforts.

2.) Oppressive and seemingly endless.
- This is the part where I can see the division. The game in nature is endless, but the 'oppressive' aspect is what can be argued from the opposing perspective is a choice, or a state of mind.

From my personal point of view there is grind involved in achieving just about any goal. For my own playstyle I do mix up activities specifically to prevent this from being a blockade to my enjoyment. And for me, I do still enjoy ED.

So although yes I could easily argue hey play like me, I know that won't work for everybody and I am not going to deny that the game has grind involved because as far as I am concerned it does.

I think it would certainly benefit the game to have more variety introduced, and I think it would benefit this thread more to focus the discussion on what possible improvements could be implemented, rather than 2 sides having a never ending argument over who is right and who is wrong.

I won't be posting in this thread again if it does remain an argument because I do not wish to get drawn into it.

And please note: All statements made above are simply 'in my opinion'!

Wow that's weird because so far, barring a couple of posters, it's been a good discussion. Curiouser, you comment it was a grind reading it then added your own wall of text LOL

 

[Jex =TE=]

33 Years and counting in the gaming industry... how about you? Thought so.

Thought so, what?

 

[jasonbarron]

Yes you are. And yep, I don't care for that part of it at all unfortunately. C'est la vie.

Sorry for misspelling your name. And after I got mine mispelled in this thread as well. Corrected now

I feel bad for misspelling your name

 

[Jex =TE=]

Both I am pleased to say

Maybe you should have paid more attention then. All that time working in the industry and you don't know what grind is? What an earth have you been doing not to know that?

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

I am allowed to have an opinion and that is it, sorry if you don't like it - I in no way try to impose it on others. As for Brian - who's he?

EDIT: I should also point out I put myself into this generation too. Instant gratification from rewards given often - basic formula for making an arcade game, just as we've had since the early 80's with a few exceptions such as Elite which has always made the player work for there reward.

No, you don't get to handwave the nonsense you just spouted away. Take it like a man and grow up. Stop making bad childish arguments. You got called out for it because you're not doing anything to help the conversation along. You made a snide comment to me a few posts up too. Are we to excepct more nasty posts to come along or can you keep things civil?

 

[Bran Tse Mallory]

Maybe you should have paid more attention then. All that time working in the industry and you don't know what grind is? What an earth have you been doing not to know that?

I know what grind is. It is what I avoid doing in every game I play - If I am forced to do things over and over again with no other actions possible I don't play it. I play Elite because it allow me to choose what I do. I am never forced to do anything I do not want to do. What I find amusing is the way people assume that developers sit around designing games to be grindy, I can assure you they do not. I can see how you and others would view your actions in a game as being forced to grind but that is just not the real case. Players for years have been wanting longer games - more depth etc. and yet all they have been given is less playtime but far more side 'stuff' to do which in certain cases has been mistaken as a grind by the player base despite not being essential to complete the game.

Let me ask you this Jex, what do you think is the single biggest grind in Elite and why do you do it?

 

[Jex =TE=]

Ranks maybe, but ships is a stickier issue. Unless there's another way to get a ship locked by a Federation rank - and as far as I know there hasn't been an event allowing that like there was for the Empire (yet) - players looking to obtain said ship haven't got any other choice but to start grinding those beans, high yield or otherwise. Personally I'd prefer Empire though, not because of ideology but because of the Cutter, because it's gorgeous. [heart]

Can we first stop accepting this "Stop playing the game the wrong way" attitude around here? There is no wrong way to play so those arguing there is no grind are wrong again when they say other people are playing it wrong.

This is evidenced by looking at the game onjectives.

Power Play
Engineers
Fed Rank
Imp Rank
Elite Rank Combat
Elite Rank Trade
Elite Rank Exploration
Ship progression

It doesn't matter if someone subjectively decides to take 8000000000000000000000000000000 years to do it, because that's the way to play the game, the game mechanics are their for anyone to see, blatantly. This conversation is getting to play ground levels now. We can all see the mechanics and anyone telling someone else "they're playing it wrong" is wrong. The progression of the game is to actually play it quicker to get the ranks - they're the objectives. If you're just moping around the galaxy, you're playing it wrong. (not you, asd in you just the general you lol )

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Sorry for the late reply, been busy. I think the basic gameplay is okay, and I certainly don't find it boring, but I do agree with you that all these gameplay elements can be expanded upon.

The best time I have had in any game was during the Lugh War. You can find out about it in Lugh with the tourist beacons ;-). I had a compelling reason to do what I was doing and just having that alone made the game even better in my eyes. That is lacking at the moment and I think that should be addressed more than anything else.



I do not know why people call it Grindy or Netflix. I just don't have the time to watch netflix when I play. Shallow, yes I can see that, see above.

Regarding VR, I have only had it a month, so yes I would still be enjoying the game (been playing since gamma/beta). People see things as time sinks for example landing and taking off from planets. I see them as an event in itself. I love it and certainly don't want it sped up. It just feels epic, and that is what I love about the game. The scale is amazing, seeing this dot of a planet slowly get bigger, then you see the details, you get closer and go into oribital cruise, i see an interesting area, and I fly down to it to get an amazing view for the huge mountain range I have just seen, and now I have the ability to drive around it in my SRV.

That to me is superb. Others maybe not. But it is up to them to find their own path, and if they find that path boring or a grind or you think you have to watch netflix, then maybe they should have a long look in the mirror and maybe change the way they approach the game. But it is at the end of the day, their choice how they approach it.

Sure there can be grind. But it certainly isn't designed to be like that. We have been given a load of tools, how we use them is up to us.

I think the netflix thing came about when we al lstarted and people did trade runs, back and forth and nothing was going on so at the time, everyone was recommending you watch netflix to cope with the boredom lol.

 

[fu9ar]

You can't expect uninspired philistines who reduce Elite to grinding out fake space bux as quickly as possible to really grok what we're getting at.

 

[Martian Successor]

I feel bad for misspelling your name

You see what you did, ya done gone and made me do it to someone else

Bah, don't feel bad. Be happy instead

 

[Jex =TE=]

I know what grind is. It is what I avoid doing in every game I play - If I am forced to do things over and over again with no other actions possible I don't play it. I play Elite because it allow me to choose what I do. I am never forced to do anything I do not want to do. What I find amusing is the way people assume that developers sit around designing games to be grindy, I can assure you they do not. I can see how you and others would view your actions in a game as being forced to grind but that is just not the real case. Players for years have been wanting longer games - more depth etc. and yet all they have been given is less playtime but far more side 'stuff' to do which in certain cases has been mistaken as a grind by the player base despite not being essential to complete the game.

Let me ask you this Jex, what do you think is the single biggest grind in Elite and why do you do it?

LOL I love the way you assume I grind. My playstyle is just like yours but I'm not about to blow smoke up my     and go along with a bad argument. Some devs DO sit around designing games to be grindy - WTH? Now you don't even know that? 33 years "In the industry" and sorry, but I'm not convinced of your credentials. You don't know what grind is and you don't know that devs don't make grindy games lol - (Wow, so much grinding! lol)

Come on Bran, surely you can see, not from your perspective, that ED has massive grind if you want to progress at a resepctable rate? Do you think it should take a year to buy a new ship and A grade it? How long is reasonable for you to get top Fed rank?

How do you powerplay and not grind?

 

[JuicerPrime]

Can we first stop accepting this "Stop playing the game the wrong way" attitude around here? There is no wrong way to play so those arguing there is no grind are wrong again when they say other people are playing it wrong.

Er...I wasn't defending the "stop playing the game the wrong way", I was pointing out that if a player wants a rank-locked ship they don't get to 'choose to limit themselves' - there's literally no other way to get the ship. The rank part was just referring to ranks for their own sake. Sorry if it came off wrong.

 

[fu9ar]

How do you powerplay and not grind?

I do powerplay and don't grind.

It's subjective.

Deal with it.

 

[FurtivePygmy]

I've started playing a fun new forum game with posts like this. It's called, "Try to guess how many pages we can get to before everything goes sideways with insults, sarcasm, and unproductive shenanigans!"

[Clears throat]
Well folks, this one is off to a good start, a nice lead going into the bend, but then, WHAT'S THIS!? A STUMBLE!? The leader is down! Repeat, the star of this race is down on the first corner! Less than a page folks, what an upset we've had here today!

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

The more things that you involve yourself in, the less of a grind the game becomes.

Is this a fair comment, or false?

 

[darthyank]

I havent read all the answers but totally agree with OP.

This game is the game I dreamed about when I was a kid (35 years ago). Being able to fly a space ship in open galaxy, better graphics than the original Elite, real players playing in the same game. Whaou. When you really think of it, it's quite incredible. Look at space invaders, the original elite and all the games we had 30 years or more ago.

Of course in my 2000 and more hours, I didnt always get new experiences and from time to time I did repetitive things. I didn't get my anaconda by not caring at all on how to gain money. I mostly bounty hunt but I also did CG, trading, mining, .... And even sometimes when I did too much of the same thing (like bounty hunting) I got tired of it. So I either changed activity or played another game for some time.

But always came back to Elite dangerous.

You fly a Space ship in a realistic galaxy! A fu$**ing spaceship!!

I suspect those that complain about grind and accusing elite being boring and so of being unfair (IMO of course, dont mean to be disrespectful):

first of all they probably played a lot of elite. What other game got as much time and really if that game took so much of your gaming time doesn't it deserve a bit of respect?

second after playing so much of a game, any game will be repetitive. A great soccer game, if you play 1000 of hours, can feel a bit boring and of a grind. You got to play 500 matchs just to finish a career.

My 2 cents is to hold a small diary. Put in your short terms objectives, your long terms one, and what you are doing. Jump on the unexpected and dont be too firm on what you have planned.
Change ship even if you got a better one. Always fun to play again a bit in Cobra.

So if a grindy game gets me to fly a spaceship, it still beats every other game with or without grind I came across.

Fly safe CMDRs

 

[Martian Successor]

Question born of curiosity, and please don't take this wrong, i just genuinely have no idea.

if you don't like the "grind" or feel there is too little/no reward, then why do you play?

Loads of people come on the forums to moan and yet are still playing, is it just a way to vent?

ok, so that came out as 2 questions but if someone can genuinely answer that would be great.

Hey theflyinman,

I don't play to grind. I play to have fun. Unfortunately unfinished/unpolished content can get in the way of that fun. I have fun in plenty of ways, PvP, PvE, yada, yada. At the core of it though the most definable aspect of fun in ED for me means making progress towards having the freedom to fly the ships I want to fly. In order to have that freedom I have to acquire enough credits and military ranks to be able to unlock access to these things. Many of the activities that allow for meaningful credit gain and rank gain are not designed very well in my opinion because they feel like a chore and in extreme cases like a 2nd job. That's why I am eternally on the lookout for things to do that are both fun and offer meaningful progression in terms of credits, ranks, mats, etc. Basically how I think progression in a video game should be designed - fun, challenging, effort-based and making meaningful progress all happily married as one.

So far I've found only 1 activity that does this to my satisfaction. Or I should say I've continually had to rediscover this activity after each update.
In 2.0 it was taking on missions that required me to hunt down and rescue escape pods. Despite the fact these missions were badly bugged (the missions failed randomly despite their timers having never expired) this was my favourite iteration of this activity - heck, it was the very FIRST iteration of this activity. I loved it. It was fun for me to play an intergalactic rescuer. Moving from planet to planet like a one man rescue service. And they paid good for the effort needed because they were frequent enough that I could stack them as well as the fact that I could gather up random escape pods in my own time, then activate the missions and cash them in - in this way I would avoid the game breaking mission failed bug! Happy times

Base assaults became a second favourite because of how I could use Cubeo to grind Empire rank and make money. But it was way too repetitive and gimpy for my tastes so I only did it infrequently when I wanted to feel like I was making tangible progress - boy do I regret not notching up my Empire rank now eh, I honestly didn't expect rank grinding to only get worse [sad]

In 2.1 full on base assaults became impossible for a single player and rescue escape pod missions disappeared entirely for some time, then got brought back but they were reworked and not satisfying anymore. You couldn't make a roleplaying career out of being a rescuer anymore because they became much rarer. You couldn't stack them anymore for the same reason without mode switching like a nutbar. And you couldn't find escape pods on planets naturally anymore unless you were on a specific mission to do so - so bye bye authenticity, roleplay and freedom. That 1 mythical activity I looked long and hard for that was both fun and rewarding had been destroyed. Oh well, back to flying my ships for fun and occasionally stomaching the bland chore of grinding a CG or the like for a reward that felt adequate even though the activity was not fun. Oh yeah and the RNGineers got added *Hisses like a vampire on day release*

2.2 hits town. What's this!? I learn I can do datalink scan and generator destruction missions by using my wits (unlike in 2.0 low and medium security systems don't hunt you down like a mutant monkey just for scanning some lamp posts in a base). I can have fun roleplaying as a rogue base infiltrator, gather RNG materials *hisses like a vampire exposed to garlic* AND make adequate money that makes me feel adequately rewarded for time, effort and brain power used! Well twist my biscuits and shizzle my kizzle I just found that 1 activity again!

So in short I at least have one activity where I feel fully satisfied - provided it stays that way I guess. I want more activities that feel like that... and that's pretty much all there is to it. I don't stay for the grind - the bad stuff. I stay for the hope the bad stuff will go away and be replaced with good stuff (there's plenty of good stuff that came with 2.1 and 2.2 btw). There are a couple of activities I can do for a little bit without feeling the chore in them and then there's things that have such a lack of polish in them in my opinion that it's a crying shame they haven't been focused on at all in pretty much 2 years - looking at you bounty spawn camp profession and military ranking lack-of-career. I find my own fun in ED - doesn't everyone - but I want the game to improve and so I must criticise that which needs improvement in my honest opinion.

As for why am I still playing? That's easy. Ghost Legion. The player group I am a proud member of. If it weren't for being a member of this group and all the unique stuff we get up to I would have stopped playing the game a long time ago.

... Holy wall of text Batman! I didn't expect to write so much but I hope that provides an adequate answer to your questions.

 

[Martian Successor]

I note you "cherry pick" that aspect of his post but nonetheless say nothing to refute his other reasoning. If we are calling out rhetorical fallacies you just put your foot straight in to ad hominem. Care to fix that at all?

Nothing "rhetorical" about the fallacy he wrote chum and ad hominem implies I attacked Bran personally. I did nothing of the sort, I voiced my displeasure at his comment and my disappointment that it came form him by saying I assumed he knew better. If anything I am saying I hold Bran to higher standards than every other forum Tom, , and Francesca.

I am allowed to cherry pick whatever I want, especially cherries! If you are seeking a refute to Bran's reasoning from me then look no further than all of my other posts in this thread. I see no reason in repeating myself. Finally I would suggest you look up the definitions for "rhetorical" and "ad hominem". Peace and love baby

 

[Martian Successor]

You guys want to know what a REAL grind is? This thread.

Nah, THIS is grinding!

Spoiler

...With style

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

Nah, THIS is grinding!

Spoiler

http://i.imgur.com/UBh8nwA.gif

...With style

Curious, that humanoid looks shaped like a banana...I think I like it.