Well thanks for the honest answer; but from the outside looking in it does appear that at FD you aren't clear on what is in the scope of a exploit so it's no wonder the community is confused.
An investigation into Frontier's actions on Combat Logging
- Thread starter ryan_m
- Start date
Well thanks for the honest answer; but from the outside looking in it does appear that at FD you aren't clear on what is in the scope of a exploit so it's no wonder the community is confused.
There is no my interpretation. There is no interpretation of 2+2 mate.
Open just mean Open. Nothing more, nothing less.
In-game crime and punish system is just ridiculous and this is a one of causes of griefing. Second is badly designed game mode mechanics.
But actually, you can be atacked by NPC and player, so NPC are also griefers?
There is no difference to being destroyed by a player or an NPC. You still need to rebuy a ship.
Player can behave in the exact way as NPC can and behave. Nothing more, nothing less.
If you want Play in Open, but you are afraid of griefers then whin to FD about ridiculous crime and punish system. I will even support you then and i will whin about that with You.
Griefers are playing a their way, fully legit by in-game rules.
But now, if you will choose the Open, you will agree to any interaction what is possible.
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Thank you and I appreciate that this is not an easy position to be in and please note I have not had any doubt at all about your integrity with handling the views of this community. I merely feel you risk polarising this particular community further by contributing your own views even with the "not FD´s position" disclaimer. However, I am pretty sure you are better at your job than I would be so I wish you luck on finding what jives with this community.
Brett C
Frontier
It's more or less the fact that I cannot make a deciding call on what is and what is not an exploit without a decision up the chain.
Brett, part of the problem is though that Frontier aren't putting forward any form of solution either.. that's why your comment is seen by many as a what the? your frontiers face here and your response was basically seen by some as 'Get Good' which isn't really a proper answer.
Lets be frank as it stands there are issues and both sides have valid points.. People combat logging is well an exploit while at the same time people griefing etc is not fun.. while some will argue the point for the majority being blown up for no reason is not fun.. At least the NPC's pirating etc give you a choice to drop your cargo etc..
To top that out of late the payouts for your time invested have been well a joke in recent weeks/months which means people loose a lot if they do get blown up.. Ok that's fine but what is the risk to those DOING the blowing up? Oh they get a bounty in one system.. Ok but in the end hows that a risk? they just move to the next system because they can.. and hey look no bounty no wanted status etc. There is no real risk for them.
That means that the risk is soully on the guys who are generally just wanting to have a fair chance or at least know that if they are shot and destroyed that the person who's done is has to actually face a consequence for it.. but at the moment that isn't the case not really, worst of all it doesn't make sense either not from a lore point of view and certainly not from the point of view of a healthy environment for a game that is meant to be about risk vs reward.
Lets say you where the one doing the ganking as it stands you could easily go to Sol blow up 3 guys.. ok heats on.. jump to alpha cent.. blow up 5 guys.. jump to the next.. etc yeah ok your racking up bounties in those systems but beyond that nothing else is happening.. Despite the fact that by now the authorities really should have clued into the fact that Brett C has been on a murder rampage across 8 systems in Federal Space.. maybe we should put an all points bulletin out making him kill on sight? etc.
That makes the risk for those griefing actually mean something..they run the risk of becoming the equivilent of Public Enemy Number 1 across an entire major faction rather than just a system.
Int he end though FDEV will NEVER be able to make every one happy.. why? Because Fdev choose to make E a Sudo MMO rather than the original promised Hybrid and that means trying to balance out the different playstyles.. and people need to learn as well that not every one has to conform to what they perseve as the means to play the game. In the end there should be no 'Right' or 'Wrong' way.
The other issue of course is that Engineers have made it so that if you can invest in the 'grind' and range' arguing that goes along with it you get a major advantage and the ability to pot shot those with out.. in some cases.. or at least that is how many percieve it.
Really the only true solution to combat logged would be to have the servers not remove the players ship until x amount of time has gone since the last packet arrived and if they get blown up store that state.. eg same as what Eve Online does or WoW or any other game with PVP in it.. but again that kinda goes against some of what David promised originally which is that players could choose when to save.
Lets be frank as it stands there are issues and both sides have valid points.. People combat logging is well an exploit while at the same time people griefing etc is not fun.. while some will argue the point for the majority being blown up for no reason is not fun.. At least the NPC's pirating etc give you a choice to drop your cargo etc..
To top that out of late the payouts for your time invested have been well a joke in recent weeks/months which means people loose a lot if they do get blown up.. Ok that's fine but what is the risk to those DOING the blowing up? Oh they get a bounty in one system.. Ok but in the end hows that a risk? they just move to the next system because they can.. and hey look no bounty no wanted status etc. There is no real risk for them.
That means that the risk is soully on the guys who are generally just wanting to have a fair chance or at least know that if they are shot and destroyed that the person who's done is has to actually face a consequence for it.. but at the moment that isn't the case not really, worst of all it doesn't make sense either not from a lore point of view and certainly not from the point of view of a healthy environment for a game that is meant to be about risk vs reward.
Lets say you where the one doing the ganking as it stands you could easily go to Sol blow up 3 guys.. ok heats on.. jump to alpha cent.. blow up 5 guys.. jump to the next.. etc yeah ok your racking up bounties in those systems but beyond that nothing else is happening.. Despite the fact that by now the authorities really should have clued into the fact that Brett C has been on a murder rampage across 8 systems in Federal Space.. maybe we should put an all points bulletin out making him kill on sight? etc.
That makes the risk for those griefing actually mean something..they run the risk of becoming the equivilent of Public Enemy Number 1 across an entire major faction rather than just a system.
Int he end though FDEV will NEVER be able to make every one happy.. why? Because Fdev choose to make E
a Sudo MMO rather than the original promised Hybrid and that means trying to balance out the different playstyles.. and people need to learn as well that not every one has to conform to what they perseve as the means to play the game. In the end there should be no 'Right' or 'Wrong' way.The other issue of course is that Engineers have made it so that if you can invest in the 'grind' and range' arguing that goes along with it you get a major advantage and the ability to pot shot those with out.. in some cases.. or at least that is how many percieve it.
Really the only true solution to combat logged would be to have the servers not remove the players ship until x amount of time has gone since the last packet arrived and if they get blown up store that state.. eg same as what Eve Online does or WoW or any other game with PVP in it.. but again that kinda goes against some of what David promised originally which is that players could choose when to save.
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That is truth!
Reddit is a much larger community and website-traffic as a whole. Granted, when we look in more closely, /r/EliteDangerous vs forum data begs to differ that. We have a high user retainment rate here vs /r/EliteDangerous, same goes for session counts. However, /r/EliteDangerous is a bit more liberal in their moderation practices (i think!), where as here it's a little more strict. Which probably off-sets the user
Well, you're the community manager, can't you just make moderation here a little less strict?
Anyway, reddit is bad and evil hive of upvoting and stupid memes. They may sound more vocal, but i'd think developing your own userbase on your own forum would be more rewarding in the end, unless you want a gradual shift to social media... brggl... brb puking
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why wont people let me grief them frontier make them let me grief them frontier do something
why wont people let me grief them frontier[SUB][/SUB]why wont people let me grief them frontier make them let me grief them frontier do somethingmake them let me grief them frontier do something
why wont people let me grief them frontier make them let me grief them frontier do something
why wont people let me grief them frontier make them let me grief them frontier do something
why wont people let me grief them frontier make them let me grief them frontier do something
why wont people let me grief them frontier make them let me grief them frontier do something
why wont people let me grief them frontier make them let me grief them frontier do something
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![[VR] Mad Mike](https://forums-cdn.zaonce.net/data/avatars/m/27/27910.jpg?1553527108){kind=avatar}
surely the answer isn’t to pander to what people want... but to attempt to make it realistic (ie believable).
Whilst i am sure there are a minority who want to be able to destroy the innocent in plain view of a station, then jump to SC, jump back and then dock, i am confident the majority don’t.
on top of that, again, surely that is the point of hi sec/low sec and anarchy, to pander to the different players who want consequences, and those who don’t want consequences.
hi sec should be zero tolerance to crime, anarchy should be anything goes except for things which even the anarchy the controlling faction do not want (ie things which harm the controlling faction).
this isnt about it being my view of how it should be (though as it happens it is my view
) but that it is the logical solution which not only makes sense, but gives every player areas with a C&P system that they can get on with.CLing needs to be fixed, but not at a higher priority than a tooled up psycho blowing up a relatively defenceless trader or explorer costing months of work with ZERO conequence.......
how anyone who has ever used a suicidewinder to hide from bounty hunters and avoid paying large insurance fees can moan about CLers being exploiters and not feel ashamed at their hypocrisy i do not know.
everything about the crime in ED as well as the way networking works in ED favours the illegal aggressor and does nothing to help the lawful
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Brett C
Frontier
Well, you're the community manager, can't you just make moderation here a little less strict?
If it were that easy, i'd wave my hands and make it so.
I got 30 mods to keep track of, never know when one might escape!
Early last year Sandro and Michael talked about superpower-wide bounties around the time 1.3 came out (bounties did actually work that way before 1.3), the change to minor faction bounties hurt the crime system pretty bad in my opinion.
Have to wonder why this superpower-bounties idea was put on the back-burner for so long when its such an important issue in this game.
Edit: This is how it should work in my opinion...
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Viajero
Volunteer Moderator
*Mod hat off
*Right guys [talking to fellow mods], now that Brett´s full attention is in this thread, lets wreak havoc elsewhere!*
If it were that easy, i'd wave my hands and make it so.
I got 30 mods to keep track of, never know when one might escape!
*Right guys [talking to fellow mods], now that Brett´s full attention is in this thread, lets wreak havoc elsewhere!*
![BigBANGtheory [VR]](https://forums-cdn.zaonce.net/data/avatars/m/71/71385.jpg?1644873788){kind=avatar}
The first thing to appreciate is that there in no single solution it is going to take a range of actions to get control of:
1. Without a more robust Crime & Punishment system all arguments in this area are circular i.e. no progress can be made
2. ED has stability problems especially at peak hours, if that cannot be easily addressed then you need some kind of heart beat process to adjudicate on disconnections
3. You cannot trust players if they cry foul for a shaky Internet connection, maybe they do maybe they don't either way you cannot control that which is why the excuse is made because it cannot be proven or dis-proven. It is simply the players responsibility end of story.
4. Finally FDev need a process which disadvantages the combat logger making it a less desirable action than the alternative. Imho their insurance is taken away due to 'suspected fraud'
Thing is without 1,2 & 3 forget it
yeah i know gets me as well. like i said a few tens of pages back I dont' condone combat logging but i can certainly understand why people are doing it.. simply because the system of risk vs reward of late and risk vs consequence has become seemingly broken in certain areas.
If it were that easy, i'd wave my hands and make it so.
I got 30 mods to keep track of, never know when one might escape!
29....
Something has to be done though because at the moment this game is nothing more than a ganker's paradise, as you have next to zero punishment for ganking crime.
I'd hate to live in the ED universe. It's a dystopian hell. It punishes the innocent and rewards the murderous.
Lichtenberg branching? Here's how it stands right now...
Non PvP player who plays in Open...
Play in Open ----> get killed Just Because -----> You have X amount of rebuy, lose your cargo/materials/exploration data (which means you also lost hours/days/months of effort).
Consequences for the killed are far more punishing than for the killer.
Lovely game design you have right there, FDEV.
This game is fracking awful right now.
I had an epiphany a few days ago and came to this conclusion about this game as it stands right now...
Which is exactly what I'm doing. Not playing the bloody game.
Well, you're the community manager, can't you just make moderation here a little less strict?
We have moderator guidelines, and Brett and Zac help guide us in following those guidelines and tell us when we are being too hard or too soft.
We listen and nod wisely.
Then run rampant again.
29 moderators with beer on the wall, 29 moderators with beer
If one of them happens to escape from it all
28 moderators with beer on the wall
If one of them happens to escape from it all
28 moderators with beer on the wall
sorry but FD are so wishywashy on "exploits" that it is hard to take seriously imo. so CLing IS an exploit, but clearing bounty via suicidewinder, thus "hiding" from bounty hunters, AND avoiding paying out insurance is not an exploit?
earning 100 million an hr in a sidewinder with dumb fires(as shown on youtube) by mode switching and stacking skimmer missions and completing all 20 in 20 seconds flat before self destructing is not exploiting but CLing due to a cutter attacking an exploration asp with 3 months of data on for lolz is?
(and i agre CLing needs to be fixed..... at the same time or after all the other issues are).
ED has no balance it is so far weighted to illegal play and zero protection to the lawful
PS i have never CLed due to players, but it has pushed myself and all i play with out of open... which i used to think was kind of sad.
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