1.2 vs 2.2 FDL: A comparison

We need to buff the courier. My grade 5 overcharged multicannons are only putting out 20.3 damage per second x 3 multicannons. They are gimbals. Id like to see em at 30 each but that is wishful thinking. :D

Courier just needs a class 4 power distributor. It should be more competitive with the vulture and the major weakness of the courier is sustained firepower. Yes, you can engineer a class 3 distributor to be better. You can also do the same to a class 4.
 
Courier just needs a class 4 power distributor. It should be more competitive with the vulture and the major weakness of the courier is sustained firepower. Yes, you can engineer a class 3 distributor to be better. You can also do the same to a class 4.

Courier's fine as is. You don't need a size 4 distributor when you can boost to 660 m/s
 
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As a known FDL supporter, I would actually like to see some new ships come into the game that can rival the FDL.

My engineered FDL is just terrifying, second only to my new highly engineered corvette, which is even more scarier..

Buffing the python isnt the best solution imho it is a multirole ship, not designed for combat, but giving it another 1-2 util slots I think could work.

What we need is some new combat specific ships whose sole role is to challenge the FDL and even Corvette.

Maybe this is just my personal wish list, but I would love to see very high paying combat missions that require a highly engineered combat ship to complete them. Or a wing of non-engineered ships.

I should not have to rely on pvp to be challenged. Killing 100 NPC ships is not a challenge. Going after an Elite Corvette with engineer mods, 2.1 beta AI, and an escort with the goal of capturing it might prove a lot more difficult.
 
Arguments in either direction aside, Frontier have made it rather clear that they look at use statistics when considering balance.
 
Have you flown a fully engineered Vulture? They can do things no other ship can do. And btw, the Boost-Flip works against players who use it, especially vs more agile ships. Many people don't realize that by boosting they are only gaining distance, and sacrificing TOT. No matter how skillfully executed, a boost flip is never faster than a controlled flip.

Yep. I've noticed this exact thing and now prefer a simple, well timed fa off and judicious strafe and main thruster use to keep sights on target.
 
Arguments in either direction aside, Frontier have made it rather clear that they look at use statistics when considering balance.

That's tantamount to saying Frontier looks at aesthetics when determining ship balance. The FDL is without a doubt the sexiest ship in the game. All other things being equal, more people will fly it despite the punishing jump range and combat-focused gameplay limitations just because it's gorgeous.

Should ships be gimped just because they're prettier?
 
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I usually agree with your insights and analysis, but today I am going to have to massively disagree.

The overuse of the FDL is purely down to:

1) aesthetics
2) hype

A fully engineered FDL is not much better than a fully engineered Python when it comes to combat. Maybe 15% more efficient at killing, and similar good at tanking (once all other factors are taken into effect). In all other respects the engineered FDL is significantly WORSE than the Python. [...]

This whole 2-3 times shields calculation is a red herring btw. Comparing apples and oranges. The base shields of the other ships mentioned are only slightly lower when maxed out, and All of them can carry multiple redundant SCBs that extend their shields by at least 2-3x.

Your SCB example is as much of a red herring. Even if you stuff a FAS with SCBs, the shield strength is far inferior, especially so with the lack of Utilitiy slots - even if disregarding heat sinks, happily overheating and frying ones own modules. This is even true for a Python with only 4 Utility slots - you simply cannot boost the shield as much/augment resistances. And pretending that the vastly different base shield strength wouldn't matter is ...well... being accurate here would get me scolded for badgering.
 
That's tantamount to saying Frontier looks at aesthetics when determining ship balance. The FDL is without a doubt the sexiest ship in the game. All other things being equal, more people will fly it despite the punishing jump range and combat-focused gameplay limitations just because it's gorgeous.

Should ships be gimped just because they're prettier?


I think the FDL is one of the ugliest ships in the game and I still fly it cos it's that powerful
 
That's tantamount to saying Frontier looks at aesthetics when determining ship balance. The FDL is without a doubt the sexiest ship in the game. All other things being equal, more people will fly it despite the punishing jump range and combat-focused gameplay limitations just because it's gorgeous.

Should ships be gimped just because they're prettier?

I'm a traditionalist. I find the Cobra MK 3 sexier but I get your point.
 
I think the FDL is one of the ugliest ships in the game and I still fly it cos it's that powerful

For me FDL is best looking one. I like space shuttle design, and a bridge with center/rear part of ship.
ugliest are lakons and diamondbacks with that forklift canopies.
 
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That's tantamount to saying Frontier looks at aesthetics when determining ship balance. The FDL is without a doubt the sexiest ship in the game. All other things being equal, more people will fly it despite the punishing jump range and combat-focused gameplay limitations just because it's gorgeous.

Should ships be gimped just because they're prettier?

Ask Frontier. I didn't offer any opinion on the matter.

One opinion I will offer is that the FDL is far from the best looking ship in the game.
 
Your SCB example is as much of a red herring. Even if you stuff a FAS with SCBs, the shield strength is far inferior, especially so with the lack of Utilitiy slots - even if disregarding heat sinks, happily overheating and frying ones own modules. This is even true for a Python with only 4 Utility slots - you simply cannot boost the shield as much/augment resistances. And pretending that the vastly different base shield strength wouldn't matter is ...well... being accurate here would get me scolded for badgering.

Based on your response, I can see that you are missing some key info about the game's core mechanics, and how to engineer around them. And your immediate inclination to "scold and badger" makes me unwilling to enlighten you. Good luck CMDR, you're gonna need it ;)
 
All other things being equal, more people will fly it despite the punishing jump range and combat-focused gameplay limitations just because it's gorgeous.

Should ships be gimped just because they're prettier?

In what universe are "all other things equal"? The ships discussed here are wildly different.
The FAS was able to keep up decently while going shieldless was still an option - since external damage from explosives was introduced, this is no longer the case. And the all-bottom utility slots (and their smaller number) are uneffective for point defence, as pointed out here earlier.
 
I think the FDL is one of the ugliest ships in the game and I still fly it cos it's that powerful

I highly suspect that you're in the minority opinion here. I think your views on the FDL are skewed by your obvious hatred of it. I have a similar relationship with the Asp, the hideous default optimal exploration ship. I understand.

If you're objective though, (unlike the unassailable Asp) the FDL is only slightly better at combat than its peers. I have tested this thoroughly with many optimal builds on the medium class ships. The difference is marginal. And while margins may matter in high level combat, we should remember, the FDL is a COMBAT ship. If it wasn't slightly better at Combat than a Python, then the game would be very imbalanced. Currently the difference doesn't justify all of the non-combat nerfs that FDLs must endure.
 
My view on some of the really popular ships.

Python: A fantastic general purpose ship. Think of it as a T7 that can actually do decently well in a fight. Also only needs a medium pad. Even with the nerf still in full effect, one of my favorite ships to fly. but can be expensive to buy and outfit (my own python cost some 97 million, without a class A shield gen, as I had to use bi-weave to help mitigate the price of outfitting it). Can be a bit sluggish without engineered drives.

FDL: One of the 3 great combat ships. It is the middle of the road option, medium cost, decent firepower, decent agility, and decent durability. Only real drawback is the god-awful jump range. Also one of my favorite ships to fly.

Vulture: Another of the 3 great combat ships. It is the light option. Great agility, decent enough speed, a little lacking in the firepower department when compared to the FDL. Very cheap by comparison to the FDL. Biggest drawbacks are the jump range and power issues if you don't engineer the hell out of the powerplant.

Fed Corvette: The last of the 3 great combat ships. The heaviest of the bunch, it packs a bunch of firepower, decent outfitting options due to its rather high number of internal slots, decent enough jump range, and is tough as nails. However, it is big, slow, sluggish and stupidly expensive. (I may never own one) Oh, and it is a faction specific ship.

Cutter: kinda like the corvette, but is more defense oriented. I hear that docking it can be a little strange because all of the ship is behind you. I don't plan on owning one.

Conda: The Phython's big brother. Pretty much sums it up. Cost more than the python, less than the vette or cutter, lots of outfitting options. Kinda like a T9 that can actually put up a fight. Still rather slow and sluggish, and pretty costly, but it works.

FDS, FGS, FAS: All I know is that shooting down any of these in something smaller than a FDL can be a PITA. I have never flown any of these and don't really plan too.

Clipper: Same as the FDS family of ships. Facing one can be tedious, and I don't plan on ever having one.

Asp and Diamondback families: I lump all of these together because they are very similar ships. All are intended for exploration, but some have other uses. The Diamondback ships are a bit better for combat IMO, due to their smaller sizes. The Asp S is almost a transition from the cobra family into the Asp X. The Asp X is one of the best exploration ships, only out ranged by a properly set up Conda. The Asp X can also be decent in a fight, not great, but good enough. It can also be used for trading, as it can hold about the same amount of cargo as a T6, but has better range and defensive options.

Viper family: Two good introductory combat ships. pretty cheap to get either, I use a Viper mk IV when I want to play around with weapon combinations. The III is the more agile and cheaper of the two, but you can run into power management issues if you don't have engineer help. The IV is a bit tougher, doesn't have the power issues, is a bit more expensive, and is a bit slower. Neither are a bad choice. Both suffer from jump range issues without engineer mods.

Cobra family: Two great and relatively cheap general purpose ships. There isn't a job they can't do. Both can fight, haul, explore, what have you. Ok, maybe mining in these ships would be a pain, but whatever, not the point. I made my first 50 million using mainly a Cobra mk III. The mk III is one of the fastest ships in the game. The one I use for fuel rat rescues has a boost speed that is above 450 m/s and disappears from scanners once I get 200 m away. The mk III also is the more agile and the cheaper of the two. The mk IV is tougher, has more weapon slots (and better placement), has more internal options, but is slower, has a bit smaller jump range, and is a bit more expensive. Both ships have their use. I have kept my Cobra mk. III around because it is such a fun ship. If you don't have a cobra mk III or IV, go get one, either earn enough to buy and outfit one the way you want, or add it to your fleet. Might be my absolute favorite ship to fly.

T-whatever family/ keelback: Pure trading ships. Absolute rubbish in a fight, jump range is passable, defenses aren't that great. The keelback has the potential to fare okay in a fight, but still not that great. The only real saving grace is that all of these ships can have SLFs and the T6, keelback, and even the T7 are pretty cheap compared to the other ships that can equip SLF hangers. I have used both the 6 and the 7 in the past. The T series has one purpose and does that job well enough.
 
In what universe are "all other things equal"? The ships discussed here are wildly different.
The FAS was able to keep up decently while going shieldless was still an option - since external damage from explosives was introduced, this is no longer the case. And the all-bottom utility slots (and their smaller number) are uneffective for point defence, as pointed out here earlier.

If you're going to bring up the FAS, then you might as just ask the real question here: why do Federation ships all suck? The tissue paper shields of the Fed ships is not like anything seen on any other ship in this bracket. Certainly not a Combat ship!!

Don't conflate the issues of the Fed ships with the relatively minor differences between the Others mentioned in the OP, which is what I referencing (read above).

If it makes you feel any better the agility of the FAS and toughness of its hull makes it an ideal ramming ship. I've had my shields reduced to rubble by single head on collision with an unmodded FAS, despite having FDL "god shields". So there is some balance there if you think head banging is a valid tactic. Personally I think the whole Fed line up is a giant middle Finger to the USA (which is the basis of the Fed lore).
 
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The basic point, Mr Barron, is that the invention of the feedback cascade rail overturned the prior pecking order, which was (best down):

1. Corvette/Cutter
2. Anaconda
3. Python
4. FdL

Because of the SCB meta.

Now (subject to Kyo proving everyone wrong ...) it is:

1. FdL
2. Corvette/Cutter
3. Anaconda
4. Python

Of course, if the FdL doesn't bring a FCR the previous order reasserts itself, as you discovered in the encounter you told us about.

By way of illustration, here we see two most experienced PvP-ers, Oddisee (aka Deathgrips) v Majinvash (former Captain of the Code), FdL with FCR v Corvette:


https://youtu.be/M8xD8PzHXsg

Wait a second Truesilver.., Cmdr Oddisee has an alt account named Deathgrips or did he just change names? o_O I remember having a very intense fight with the python against this particular cmdr in his silentrunning fas. The demonstrated build I ran was designed to hammer silent running ships with ease especially the FAS back in the day when silent running was omnipresent. It was capable of defeating 2 pvp-piloted FAS in a 2v1 encounter due to its massive tanking capabilities (prismatic shields + 18 SCB charges in total). But this guy was different, I didn't know that it had been cmdr oddisee behind the curtain, but that explains alot he is one of the top pilots out there. I have never had had such a nerve-racking fight against a cmdr's build that used to be a direct and lethal counter to his own setup.

[video=youtube;69pU5QWCYto]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69pU5QWCYto[/video]

I have just uploaded the video know for your convenience, boi that were 11 minutes of pure nail biting.
 
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The ship people should be complaining about is the Viper3. It's agility rating has been accurately reduced to a 4. A FOUR!!! On a small ship with flimsy shields and subpar speed. Its only saving grace is it's acceleration. This ship should be at least as agile as a Vulture, since it weighs 20% of the Vulture and has maneuvering thrusters that are relatively huge compared to the size of the ship.

Was the maneuverability of the Viper nerfed? I'm not following this.
 
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