Logging During Combat Punishment [Proposal]

[MONTItheRed]

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZ !!! ... and you can stop after the word punishement !

Punishing players is the wrong way here. It's a complex problem but by punishing people, you're going to make it even worse. You add more frustration to the players on top of the grind frustration.
Totally wrong approach.

Does that mean that punishing griefers, exploiters, cheaters makes it worse? Does punishing not make anything better? If punishing doesn't make anything better, then there shouldn't be punishment to begin with.

A complete lack of punishment is a viable option if the community and developers are willing to accept that. No more fines for docking violations, no more bounties for attacking ships or stations, no more death penalties (rebuy, lost cargo, lost missions, lost cartographic data).

Crime and punishment should go together. If something isn't punished, it probably shouldn't be a crime. Likewise, someone shouldn't be punished if there wasn't a crime.

- - - Updated - - -

Beside the fact that a reported "combat log" is not necessary what the reporter THINKS had happened, the very first question shoud be: IF the other guy had pulled his plug to avoid his ships loss, WHY did he do so?

When you count the number of threads about this happening you get the feeling it happens all the time. So the next question should be: WHY do cmdrs do that again and again and again? There must be a reason for.

This is not the question why they don't use alternatives: playing in solo or mobius. Or why they play in open at all when they know about all that risk. That's not the point.

The answer is NOT "they do it because it is still possible and not being punished." Argue this way does not light up the secret WHY players do it again and again.

Investigate WHY so many (?) players pull their plugs to avoid their ships loss. We won't make any step forward in this topic before we know about this "secret".

I am sure when we get aware of the reasons why this happens we should be able to find a solution to get rid of this happenings without angriness and punishment.

Starting with why is a good point. Not what I intended the thread to be about, but a very good point nonetheless.

I think more data would be insightful. I think there is a perception of combat logging being this widespread activity; but without actual numbers or rates, it is difficult to determine reality.

Considering that combat logging is inherently during combat, I think the likely explanation is to avoid loss during combat. There are only so many end results of combat. One or both players' ships get destroyed, one or other player escapes, or they come to a truce.

 

[lenna]

Disagree with ANY in-game asset/credit/bounty/fine/game-faction penalty for combat logging but support the general BASIC principle of temporary bans from Open (and just Open). Groups can manage themselves to a degree though the tools do need some improvement IMO.

 

[MONTItheRed]

OP I find your lack of tolerance and acceptance disturbing. What you are proposing is absurd. You could never know the reason for a disconnection, period. /thread

Why should I, or other members of the community, be tolerant or accepting of cheating, exploiting, griefing, combat logging, or other actions that are against the rules of the game?

I didn't presume to know the reason for a disconnection, which is why I specifically stated that the proposal isn't about knowing the reason. This proposal isn't about punishing every disconnection, or even every violation of the rules, merely the punishment of those that Fdev finds guilty of violation of the rules.

 

[Connor Caple]

Having played EvE for years, I came here to get away from the griefers which is why I never play in Open.

Only griefers, in my experience, whine about people logging during combat. If you are that emotionally attached to blowing someone else's pixels up, you need to get some therapy.

 

[MONTItheRed]

The problem lies in the mega GRIND this game "offers" as the only way of gettings your ship insurance. That's where the real problem lies. If I have to grind half a week for my insurance and have to go through a very boring repetition loop, then I'd rather log off than going through a couple of days of frustrating tasks. That is the real problem.

That grind is very relative to where you are in the game and what you are willing to do to get funds. Therefore saying the problem is an entirely relative and contextual "grind" isn't a good basis for judgement.

So, a possible solution would be to make the loss of the ship less painful. This of course comes with a downside but adds a lot of benefits. More people in OPEN, more PvP action, way! less logging, more fun as PvP can be super fun and enrich the game a lot etc. etc.

Removing all loss associated with PVP would make open PVP more similar to CQC. No loss of ship, rebuy, cargo, missions, cart data. The loss of time could be mitigated by moving the destroyed ship to the closest station that could handle the ship. This wouldn't prevent tremendous loss of time for those destroyed deep in the black. Alternatively, a ship destroyed in PVP could be respawned in a separate instance. This would afford the player opportunity to mode swap or leave the system.

- - - Updated - - -

Are you saying in your view the combat logging exploit is acceptable if not against players ? This exploit can be equally well used in solo/PG to further progression, is this not cheating as well?

A more holistic approach is what is needed in my view.

I expanded the topic of the proposal to include griefing, exploiting, cheating, combat logging, and other actions against the rules of the game.

 

[Asp Explorer]

How about giving players a condition flag where they have to get to Elite in CQC before their weapons will work against other players in Open?

 

[MONTItheRed]

Oh, then that's a shame, with enough people the idea could have been quite influential to game playing style.

***Update***

From Reddit : "Block player (this option prevents you receiving messages from the player and reduces the chance of meeting them during the game)."

Is it worth a try????

Sure it is worth a try. But if it isn't effective, then what?

 

[lenna]

How about giving players a condition flag where they have to get to Elite in CQC before their weapons will work against other players in Open?

Only if it only applies to opponents with a comparable CQC rank.

i.e. Elite CQC v Elite CQC ranked PvP in Open ONLY.

 

[MONTItheRed]

You won't find a solution for this little "problem" as long as players are being forced to "take part" in no fair play. "Taking part" often means nothing else than to wait for the sure death, unable to stand the fight as a explorer, as a trader or as a new pilot in a small vessel. Frontier wants us to do a "sportsmanlike" fair play. But when they force players being cannon fodder for others you won't get rid of your little logging problem. That's all about it.

No one should want "fair play". Fair play would be everyone always having the same everything.

 

[Asp Explorer]

No one should want "fair play". Fair play would be everyone always having the same everything.

That's not fair

 

[MONTItheRed]

If you "COMBAT LOG" from an NPC does that count... or does anyone care?

I think people care. But as has been brought up many times, it is difficult to determine guilt.

- - - Updated - - -

Nope nope nope... and nope! Teeeeeerrible idea!

Until FD can sort out the problems with Insurance costs, bounties, network stability, NPC strength mismatches (and a host of other problems), then there should remain no "punishment" needed for combat logging.
There are much better ways to handle it without being unfair to players who might be having anywhere within a raft of hardware issues or external influence.

Better to implement a decent punishment system for the griefers and pirates before penalising players who just want to play the game without interruption.

I expanded the proposal to include griefers. Punishment for pirates is another matter entirely.

- - - Updated - - -

I thought this had been settled, the P2P architecture doesn't allow to FD to differentiate between CTD, drop in internet connection service, someone who pulls the plug or a task killer. Thus making all these "proposal" threads cropping up rather insane.

Fdev have mentioned that reports and trends are some ways that they can use to determine guilt.

- - - Updated - - -

TBH, I see anyone endorsing penalising combat logging with the game in its current state as in one of two camps:-
1) A frustrated ganker who gets a kick out of the grief they cause interdicting and destroying other CMDRs unwilling or unable to fight back. I can only imagine the joy they they get from the increased grief if players could be penalised from logging from their pointless antics.
2) A frustrated pirate. Yes it is annoying when a victim logs. But I suspect its fair to say, the mindless gankers are somewhat to blame for this outcome. But we need to ask, is piracy about the right to needlessly destroy other CMDRs? Could the profession not be made more interesting over all?

Victory! I'm not in either of those camps.

 

[MONTItheRed]

You do not understand why people want to play in open, do you? They want to meet real players too, but in solo mode there are none, in private groups they are only a very few.

Many players would also love what Frontier calls a "sportsmanlike fairplay", but unfortunately this is nearly impossible how the game currently works. A decent pvp is great. But hard to find.

I sometimes meet Cmdrs for a friendly pvp training. Just for fun. We don't kill each other. Beside this you will only run into a fight without rules where a sportmanlike behaviour will be impossible by loosing the ship in seconds.

I do understand why people want to play in open. I play in open most of the time. I also understand why people play in private groups, or solo, or any other of the many ways to play the game. How is that relevant though?

I agree that decent PVP is hard to find. The default means seems to be the CG systems. If this is the case, why not create a continually looping bounty hunting CG in a system?

- - - Updated - - -

Player combat logs and is reported. If found guilty FDev, permanently banned. Player has the right to challenge the ruling once by providing supportive evidence for their position (not justification for their action), if they win the ban is over-turned and the player is placed on probation. If they lose, the permanent ban is kept in place and the player cannot challenge the ruling again.

Zero tolerance policy.

Permanent banning after the first guilty verdict is too harsh in my opinion, which is why I gave different alternatives with escalating timelines.

 

[Asp Explorer]

the condition flag isn't a bad idea except allow players that never want to be attacked by another player to set it before entering the game. Options [yesnod]

Easily solved by never logging into CQC

If a player has never played the pure PVP aspect of Elite, it's a fair bet to say that player is not interested in PVP Perhaps make players only able to damage other players with equal or greater CQC rank when playing in Open

I know it'll never work because there are so many workarounds, but I do think it'd be worth the giggles.

 

[MONTItheRed]

And this thread is precisely why FDev should not even be considering treating CLogging as a punishable offence.

Punishment implies policing. Policing costs man-hours better spent working on the game.
Punishment just leads to endless squabbles about what counts as cheating and what punishments should be meted out.
Once you give in to the punishment mentality, these will be never ending disputes.

Don't get caught in this trap, FDev. Just award the "winning" pilot the award for the win and be done with it.

Should other actions against the terms of use/EULA not be punished due to the same logic?

 

[MONTItheRed]

Having played EvE for years, I came here to get away from the griefers which is why I never play in Open.

Only griefers, in my experience, whine about people logging during combat. If you are that emotionally attached to blowing someone else's pixels up, you need to get some therapy.

I'm not a griefer and I don't consider my proposal whining about combat logging.

 

[Rustled Jimmy]

Only if it only applies to opponents with a comparable CQC rank.

i.e. Elite CQC v Elite CQC ranked PvP in Open ONLY.

I like this idea. Have some rep on that

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not a griefer and I don't consider my proposal whining about combat logging.

Everyone else does though

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

Notice that this topic is entirely one-sided, tellingly. Only those upsetting the aggressor should be punished (and severely!), giving carte blanche to individuals and groups who have a thirst for blood?

Irrelevant. One is cheating, one is not. Next spurious argument pls?

- - - Updated - - -

Everyone else does though

No, only the people who like to cheat and grief by combat logging. They get salty and start to whine about how someone else made them cheat.

 

[Rustled Jimmy]

Irrelevant. One is cheating, one is not. Next spurious argument pls?

- - - Updated - - -



No, only the people who like to cheat and grief by combat logging. They get salty and start to whine about how someone else made them cheat.

OP is whining about loggers and so are you. Most people really don't give a damn.

 

[lenna]

Irrelevant. One is cheating, one is not. Next spurious argument pls?

- - - Updated - - -



No, only the people who like to cheat and grief by combat logging. They get salty and start to whine about how someone else made them cheat.

Hardly, it sounds like your the one QQing to me. A potential/actual griefer/ganker perhaps?

No situation that involves actions almost purely in the real world should incur a penalty in the virtual one. Combat Logging falls into this category, limiting access to the Open environment is as far as such penalties should go IMO.

True Griefer/Ganker behaviour on the other hand is a pure virtual environment activity and the in-game penalties for such behaviour should befit the activities in question - i.e. appropriate levels of Crime and Punishment. For the more extreme and persistent instances of such behaviour, limiting the associated individuals access to the open environment may be necessary. The reason for the latter is to help curtail the more toxic behaviours in the virtual environment and prevent/limit any consequences for the potential targets in-game (and also potentially in the real world).

The other major point about Combat Logging is that it is indistinguishable in the main from a genuine network connectivity disruption.

Another point is that Combat Logging is a universal problem, and could equally be used by an aggressor to escape from an incident they created themselves where they underestimated the opposition. Both cases (of Combat Logging) should be treated as comparable actions, and limited to controlling the perpetrators' access to the game (Open environment only though) rather than penalising them in-game. Combat Logging is after all a breach of the ToS/EULA and thus FD would be within their rights to do so (assuming they chose to that is).

 

[Herbrand]

Irrelevant. One is cheating, one is not. Next spurious argument pls?

For a lot of people, myself included, griefing is way worse than cheating - the latter being even justifiable against online sociopaths.