Should have though about that when I was mass locked in Imperial space in my asp. Got blown to bits.
Same old song about cheaters
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Should have though about that when I was mass locked in Imperial space in my asp. Got blown to bits.
I was chided in an earlier post about the length of my post and that no one would read it so I guess no one will read this but that's ok, I'll still feel better for having expressed my opinion! 
So at the risk of re-igniting the furor, I've been thinking about this for awhile now as I ran the last couple of CGs. Merely stating my opinion,
here is the conclusion at which I've arrived. Some people seem to have a problem with CLOGers (as I like to call them) and it really seems to come down to
a simple they're not playing fair so I don't get to kill them. Pardon me for the History lesson but over here in the US of A we had this little clambake back in the late 18th century where people decided they wanted to do things their way instead of someone else's way. The troops at that time had this "honorable" way of fighting, marching out in bright uniforms and lining up in battle array with overwhelming superior force. So the opposition chose to hide behind trees and rocks and things and shoot at them while maintaining cover. What I see from these posts and from game play is that some people would rather not be targets and others whine when their targets disappear. The aim in life (especially in battle and warfare) is to Stay Alive. Any means that accomplishes that goal is valid. Maybe not nice but valid. For those that want to test their mettle against live instead of NPC opponents, I suggest the Arena. For the CLOGers playing Solo or Private is probably a better option but ultimately, my perspective is this: Did you buy this game for me? Am I playing it on your Computer? Have you invested the time and energy to acquire my ship and cargo? So then why do you feel you have ANY rights to tell me how to play? Sure the servers belong to someone else but the by their very active failure to do anything about the situation have declared it de facto acceptable or at least not punishable. If you want to drum up support to get them to change that - go for it, just give me my money back (and I'll give you your game back) when that changes.There are plenty of other games out there to play and on which to spend money besides this one. So in conclusion I support the very old statement: All's fair in love and war. And when someone attacks you, it's not love!
So at the risk of re-igniting the furor, I've been thinking about this for awhile now as I ran the last couple of CGs. Merely stating my opinion,
here is the conclusion at which I've arrived. Some people seem to have a problem with CLOGers (as I like to call them) and it really seems to come down to
a simple they're not playing fair so I don't get to kill them. Pardon me for the History lesson but over here in the US of A we had this little clambake back in the late 18th century where people decided they wanted to do things their way instead of someone else's way. The troops at that time had this "honorable" way of fighting, marching out in bright uniforms and lining up in battle array with overwhelming superior force. So the opposition chose to hide behind trees and rocks and things and shoot at them while maintaining cover. What I see from these posts and from game play is that some people would rather not be targets and others whine when their targets disappear. The aim in life (especially in battle and warfare) is to Stay Alive. Any means that accomplishes that goal is valid. Maybe not nice but valid. For those that want to test their mettle against live instead of NPC opponents, I suggest the Arena. For the CLOGers playing Solo or Private is probably a better option but ultimately, my perspective is this: Did you buy this game for me? Am I playing it on your Computer? Have you invested the time and energy to acquire my ship and cargo? So then why do you feel you have ANY rights to tell me how to play? Sure the servers belong to someone else but the by their very active failure to do anything about the situation have declared it de facto acceptable or at least not punishable. If you want to drum up support to get them to change that - go for it, just give me my money back (and I'll give you your game back) when that changes.There are plenty of other games out there to play and on which to spend money besides this one. So in conclusion I support the very old statement: All's fair in love and war. And when someone attacks you, it's not love!
I'm a simple, uneducated PvEer here, but... just how big of an issue, in the scope of the entire game, is combat logging *really*?
It only impacts those people who play in open... who encounter someone dedicated enough to 'winning' to disconnect their network connection to win. If you assume (and I suspect I'm being generous here) that 30% of players spend more than 50% of their time in Open, and no more than 5% of those 'combat log'.... thats what, 1.5% of players? And it can be entirely avoided, along with the other 95% of PvP trolling like mail slot ramming and CG 'wolf packs' just by playing solo.
There are many (dozens?) of threads on this topic, and it just strikes me as a bit of a tempest in a teacup, to be honest. I'm not saying it shouldn't be addressed at some point, but it seems odd that it generates so many angst-filled threads of woe.
Or is the *real* problem that the PvP gankers are upset that their targets are combat logging to avoid dying when ridiculously over-matched?
It only impacts those people who play in open... who encounter someone dedicated enough to 'winning' to disconnect their network connection to win. If you assume (and I suspect I'm being generous here) that 30% of players spend more than 50% of their time in Open, and no more than 5% of those 'combat log'.... thats what, 1.5% of players? And it can be entirely avoided, along with the other 95% of PvP trolling like mail slot ramming and CG 'wolf packs' just by playing solo.
There are many (dozens?) of threads on this topic, and it just strikes me as a bit of a tempest in a teacup, to be honest. I'm not saying it shouldn't be addressed at some point, but it seems odd that it generates so many angst-filled threads of woe.
Or is the *real* problem that the PvP gankers are upset that their targets are combat logging to avoid dying when ridiculously over-matched?
As I mentioned already, punishment is the wrong approach for the combat logging issue. I never would combat log playing Battlefield or a race game because there's not much to loose.
Loosing 2 or 3 weeks of "work" is the problem here. 30 Mio. credits rebuy costs is silly if you own something like 160 mio. credits. If you take part in a CG in OPEN with an unmodded ship, you can easily loose ALL your credits within 60 minutes. Noone's going to do that. 2 years of hard work till you grinded all the way up to where you're now... of course people are going to log. And they are 100% right to do so. The problem is the game, not the players. The endless grind, the "this game feels like a job" problem.
I would say, getting rid of the rebuy/insurance costs would be the right way here and putting in something else in place to replace the rebuy thingy. Noone would logg anymore, except for a few people with valuable cargo they were working for for hours, eg to get their materials for THe Engineers together.
Loosing 2 or 3 weeks of "work" is the problem here. 30 Mio. credits rebuy costs is silly if you own something like 160 mio. credits. If you take part in a CG in OPEN with an unmodded ship, you can easily loose ALL your credits within 60 minutes. Noone's going to do that. 2 years of hard work till you grinded all the way up to where you're now... of course people are going to log. And they are 100% right to do so. The problem is the game, not the players. The endless grind, the "this game feels like a job" problem.
I would say, getting rid of the rebuy/insurance costs would be the right way here and putting in something else in place to replace the rebuy thingy. Noone would logg anymore, except for a few people with valuable cargo they were working for for hours, eg to get their materials for THe Engineers together.
Also: I've never heard of an NPC in Solo complaining about Combat logging! - just sayin' -
I don't really care much as I'm not a dedicated PvP player and that's probably why I haven't seen it that often. In the end I can't tell anyway as I can't remember seeing it twice or more with the same CMDR. A genuine disconnect is possible and it happens. So it could happen during combat.
Figuring out if something happened on the network side or if the CMDR actively pulled the plug is not really possible. You can only do statistical analysis of the disconnects. If someone has a genuine bad connection he will likely disconnect A LOT. Not just A LOT during combat. But since you can completely circumvent PvP (even in PP) I don't think it's high on the priority list.
It always makes me wonder why they do it. Why not play solo or closed group? Won't have PvP in those. I guess sometimes it's solo or closed group players who FU during mode switches. But that's a guess.
Figuring out if something happened on the network side or if the CMDR actively pulled the plug is not really possible. You can only do statistical analysis of the disconnects. If someone has a genuine bad connection he will likely disconnect A LOT. Not just A LOT during combat. But since you can completely circumvent PvP (even in PP) I don't think it's high on the priority list.
It always makes me wonder why they do it. Why not play solo or closed group? Won't have PvP in those. I guess sometimes it's solo or closed group players who FU during mode switches. But that's a guess.
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That will not work.
On a standard gaming night, i get disconnected like 10 times with either the matchmaking error, trasaction error or the game just freezes with dx error and i have to kill it in task manager.
Why should i suffer for poor service?
I've had so many "disconnects" over the last week or so.
If have been doing a lot of combat to train my crew up, so investiably it's when in combat.
If it isn't the client "hanging", with audio still playing as I hear myself getting shot at, it's a CTD (I think either the new Tobii or NVidia drivers), it's my Vive greying out so I can't see anything and have to force close the client, or just the server kicking me out due to all the networking issues weve been having. I had 3 or 4 issues alone in CQC on Kerrash's stream on Friday.
Even statistically I would be "guitly" but this is because I'm doing constant CZ combat with the occassional trip back to rearm, I am literally 95% of the time in combat. And let's be honest you're stressing the client hardest when in say a CZ or a HazRes.
Like sure it's really really easy for people here to advocate a "no compromise" disconnect from combat should be an automatic penalty, but when those very same people have technical issues be it ED client or something else I'm sure it will be a different story.
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Well if people would learn to keep their mouths shut, no one would ever know about combat logging unless it was in open and then there wouldn't be the amount of crying posts on this forum. Sorry, but it is getting ridiculous. Actually, I'm not sorry because....it is getting ridiculous.
To me this and the other thousand threads Exactly like it are ridiculous.
My game crashes twenty times a week at least on the Xbone.
To accrue some derogatory statistic or title because I play on an unstable platform is absurd.
I'm double elite with billions in the kitty so death means nothing at all.
I'm also quite happy to PVP anyone, anywhere, any time.
Why should I be viewed as an undesirable "logger" when my sh:tty connection drops out in any random instance?
My game crashes twenty times a week at least on the Xbone.
To accrue some derogatory statistic or title because I play on an unstable platform is absurd.
I'm double elite with billions in the kitty so death means nothing at all.
I'm also quite happy to PVP anyone, anywhere, any time.
Why should I be viewed as an undesirable "logger" when my sh:tty connection drops out in any random instance?
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It matters to some people, certainly, but there will always be certain types of players who have no issue with using cheats to avoid consequences in games or to tip the balance in their favour. Wallhacks have been a thing in CounterStrike since forever, maphacks in RTS games and forced disconnects in games like SF and now ED. No amount of discussion will ever solve the problem and players with this mentality can never be reasoned with as they really don't see themselves as doing anything wrong.
The only way that works is to punish people who do it, but I don't believe FD have got the balls to be honest. I've seen so many people on this forum openly admit to combat logging, I wonder if they've ever received infractions for promoting cheating? I'll wager they haven't.
As far as fair online play goes, this game is dead in the water.
It has been confirmed to me that promoting cheating (including combat logging) will result in moderators taking action.
The more acute question to me, though, is this: how much weight can we give to Frontier's stance on using metrics etc to track down combat loggers and take some kind of action against them via karma (or whatever) ... when people openly admit to logging and are still in Open?
I mean, I would assume (perhaps naively) that if someone came on here and said ...
"Hey everyone, a guy interdicted me last night so I used my infinite hull health hack, that showed him, lol!"
... that Support might actually try to match that account to a game account and take action?
So why is this not taking place concerning combat logging?
(We all know for a fact that it isn't because the same people continue to admit to it and are patently still playing in Open - and some of them have the same forum name as Cmdr name, even.)
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My feeling is that those that openly brag about it are the PvE/Ganked, rather than the combat logging ganker. The PvE/Ganked are less of an issue. It may also be that frequent use of the report player function against the Ganked CL may be given the 'boy who cried wolf' treatment.
Truesilver, do you & your group regularly report CL'ing Gankers, and do you see any noticeable effect from doing so?
Personally I report every log via the in-game report function. I have frequently offered video 'if required' but never been asked for it or heard anything further. Others go further with support tickets.
I can report the following concerning the regular Eravate combat loggers, based on my experiences with my (former) player group, Adle's Armada.
There are about half a dozen of them. Between them they have several thousand sidewinder kills and one of them in particular has boasted of having two or three thousand personally. (This is quite credible.)
All have been reported for combat logging multiple times and some by multiple different groups.
All are still in Open. Two were seen (and screen grabbed) talking together in Eravate local chat about the warnings they had received from Frontier and saying (I quote) that they might not log as much in future.
Any shadow bans (if any) ever given have been of such short duration as not to remove those applicable from the Eravate bounty board (in other words, less than a week, as they have to top their bounties up weekly, or they are removed).
One logger was exposed on reddit - the main sub - when you were still allowed to do that. There was so much outrage at the time about this guy in an Anaconda killing stacks of new players and then logging to Adle's Armada that Frontier Support actually got involved in the thread.
This is the one, single, example I know of of any kind of visible response. He might have been shadow banned because he did disappear for a little while. Then he came back with a different name (... he blabbed ...)
In short, my entire experience of reporting combat logging is that it achieves nothing.
As at this time, sadly there appears to be nothing to prevent anyone from going to Eravate and killing as many new players as they want, while combat logging if Adle's Armada catch them. Valiantly my former comrades can and do reduce the kill-rate by running interference, in effect, but against a logger, who is hence immortal, only Frontier could act - and it appears, they will not.
The saddest thing about it all is that even though we all have infinite money now, I can also report that you only need to blow someone up twice to stop them coming back. There is something about being blown up that sidey-slaughterers do not like. It can't be the creds so it must be something else.
So, basically, if Frontier could just deal with the logging, vigilante justice could be done, with considerable beneficial effect.
An excellent appraisal Truesilver, thank you. For those that are in any doubt as to why combat logging can be a serious issue, I encourage you to look at the perspective given here.
Ganking newbies & combat logging when confronted is not something that should be ignored. If there are eventually a set of rules that captures these Cmdrs I would not be concerned in the slightest if other combat loggers were caught up in it too.
To some people apparently it is normal. Personally I find it a weak decision. Before one goes out there with a ship, one should know what the ship can handle, and steer away from danger if needed. There are many ways to escape a better opponent, and none of those ways involve pulling the plug or killing the game process.
Personally, even in my Anaconda I would never log. I know when I'm going to die, usually due to an error on my side, and I know I have prepared for that by having the needed funds to do a rebuy.
Some people seem to only be able to play the game if that number on their bank account keeps going up. If it drops by having to pay a rebuy they get so unhappy that it requires them to cheat. This is pathetic in my opinion. These people should not play games where risk is involved.
The best moments I had in this game were when I would go into a fight, not sure of the outcome, then having to highwake out while my systems were failing all around me, sparks coming off the dashboard, managing to escape and land at the dock with 1% hull and 20 seconds of oxygen remaining. That's what I play this game for. Not to have a billion in my bank account.. although I do have that now
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What is a "sidewinder kill"?
But ganking newbies and then high-waking to avoid being killed is AOK? What's the difference?
Not true. Would you like me to link some videos of commanders killed in less than 15 seconds of combat (the minimum time to menu-log, and less time than high-wake)?
Good for you. I've had some fun close calls to. I don't play in open, so PvP is a non issue to me; but I can certainly find sympathy for the people being ambushed; or for whom a CZ just went terribly wrong.The best moments I had in this game were when I would go into a fight, not sure of the outcome, then having to highwake out while my systems were failing all around me, sparks coming off the dashboard, managing to escape and land at the dock with 1% hull and 20 seconds of oxygen remaining. That's what I play this game for. Not to have a billion in my bank account.. although I do have that now
Ambushing then CLing seems rude at best, and it's a lousy way to get out of a duel; but I'll side against tossing the baby with the bathwater.
CL means nothing. What does an attacking ship lose? Nothing except a little xp. Cheating a pk'r out of a kill? means nothing. You lost nothing, the logger lost nothing and its called cheating. FUNNY Stop attacking lesser ships and you might get a fight. Trying to kill a lesser ship means nothing. Stop doing it and ya might stop being disappointed.
Fdev simply can't solve combat logging. ED multiplayer instancing is built around P2P architecture. While it is capable of detecting a disconnect vs. a logout, it can't differentiate between the various causes of a disconnect. It can't tell if something is intentional or not. It can't tell the difference between a blackout and a task kill. Fdev can't directly address combat logging because they have no method of detection. Player reports aren't worth squat. Its one person's word against another's. That does not fly. Video evidence wouldn't help either. A task kill and a graceful exit logout would look the same. A sudden black out would look just like a graceful exit. In all cases, the combat logger's ship disappears from the instance. Fdev calls it cheating because this is a flaw in the system they have designed, and they have no way to fix it. They can't enforce anything because they have no way to determine guilt. They can't determine guilt because of the way the game is designed. They can't change the way the game is designed because it is far too late for that.
I meant "the killing of a new Cmdr who is still in the starter sidewinder" by reference to a handful of combat loggers whose game concerns hanging around Eravate in FdL or huge ship and killing new players.
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